The Pleadings of God

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
can you please find me in scripture where it teaches that Adam's sin (or anyone's sin) causes all of mankind not to have the capacity for faith?

Ephesians 2:1,5(NASB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

I doubt you will accept this truth but, hey, I tried.

</font>[/QUOTE]Can you blame me? My question asked for one verse that teaches that Adam's sin causes all of mankind not to have the capasity for faith. You show me a verse that doesn't even contain the words or even the concepts of Adam's original sin, faith or man's capasity. Can you say, S---T----R-----E------T-----C------H

 

[KenH]

The verses I cited talk about man being dead. We are conceived being spiritually dead because of Adam's sin and the sin nature we receive because of it. We sin because we are born sinners.

Hey, I knew I would be as well off posting to a brick wall.

 

[Sularis]

Your legal arguments are so much piles of worthless dust

Logically you state that all in Adam are condemned or imputed guilty

Then Jesus is imputed guilty by YOUR faulty reasoning

Jesus is born of Mary who is of Adam - unless you going to argue that women arent really sinners and bearers of the curse of God.

If so by YAHWEH we must pursue cloning and replace the male of the species - so that we can have once again a sinless race. - in fact we must start now to raise the perfect girl from which we can start our species anew.

I see people far more educated then me spouting such words as to sully the Word of God it makes me angry

In fact you all seem to forget that the ENTIRE Bible is harmonious - and that your statements conflict with a final personal judgement - and not only that - it is in DIRECT opposition to the passage in Ezekiel 18:16-24 - you can read on from there.

The point is that the sin or status of the sin is not imputed on to the son

However this seems to conflict with Exodus 20:5

BUT the inquity (avon) also has a meaning that seems to be ignored - it refers to consequences
The consequence of Adams sin is not that we are all automatically damned to Hell

Rather it is that we become flawed creatures that gain a nature or tendency to that which is sin.

Have you ever seen the cycle of violence abusers cause - The child is not responsible for the abuse - until he becomes the abuser - but because he was abused the child tends to think that that sort of behaviour is right

Adam failed us yes - but not in the courtroom of God - but rather in an example of fatherhood. God corrects that by adopting us as His sons so that we have a new perfect example to follow

Come now, let us reason together - is a plea from God to all mankind - to turn from our ways of sin and filth - and partner with Him in the works which He would have us do - according to our own INDIVIDUAL sins.

The only person who is truly punished for another's sins is that of a teacher or pastor - who teaches false doctrine and thereby causes a believer to stumble and\or fall.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Sularis:
Logically you state that all in Adam are condemned or imputed guilty. Then Jesus is imputed guilty by YOUR faulty reasoning.

Adam was the federal head of the human race, not Eve. Remember the Bible teaches that man is the head of woman(1 Corinthians 11).

Since Jesus did not have an earthly father, the sin nature was not passed on to Him in His physical body.

If one looks at the Bible as a whole without free will misconceptions, it clearly teaches that man comes into this world spiritually dead. And a dead person can't do anything to better his condition. Thus, after the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, the now spiritually alive, resurrected soul willingly comes immediately to Jesus in repentance and faith.

I hope this helps.

 

[Sularis]

And for you folks - just to make sure you feel that I've dealt with yer verses in

Ephesians 2:1,5(NASB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Adam aint mentioned - and since he aint mentioned here - I simply state that the death causing sins are personal ones - since I dont think Paul communally got together with anyone that he wrote to before he was a Christian and committed sins

Romans 5:19
For &lt;1063&gt; as &lt;5618&gt; by &lt;1223&gt; one &lt;1520&gt; man?s &lt;444&gt; disobedience &lt;3876&gt; many &lt;4183&gt; were made &lt;2525&gt; (5681) sinners &lt;268&gt;, so &lt;3779&gt; &lt;2532&gt; by &lt;1223&gt; the obedience &lt;5218&gt; of one &lt;1520&gt; shall &lt;2525&gt; &lt;0&gt; many &lt;4183&gt; be made &lt;2525&gt; (5701) righteous &lt;1342&gt;.

Or in different words

BECAUSE ADAM SINNED MANY (punctiliar aorist) WERE, ARE, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE MADE\SHOWN TO BE\DECLARED\COME FOWARD AS\EXHIBIT ONES SELF\SHOW ONES SELF TO BE SINNERS, BUT BECAUSE CHRIST DIED MANY (future)WILL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS

Well have you ever thought that if Adam hadnt sinned - there in theory would be no sinners - that by his act MANY not ALL would be damned (eternal viewpoint) much like Christ who will save MANY but not ALL.

The sin is not passed down - it is the result of the sin - the thought or belief that that sin observed is perhaps good - and perhaps other similar sins may be good as well. That flaw which is sin nature

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
The verses I cited talk about man being dead. We are conceived being spiritually dead because of Adam's sin and the sin nature we receive because of it. We sin because we are born sinners.

Hey, I knew I would be as well off posting to a brick wall.

If you think Arminians are like brick walls, why do you come to this board? Did you expect us to say, "Oh, Ken you are so smart, I had never thought of that before! Thank you for revealing this truth to me."

Your argument assumes that being spiritually dead means that man is unable to have faith.

Paul also teaches that Christians are dead to sin. Does this mean we are totally unable to sin? No. It means that we now have a desire for righteousness not sin. Just as when we were born we were dead to righteousness meaning that we had a desire for sin not righteousness. This in no way proves that man is unable to believe the gospel by faith.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
1)If you think Arminians are like brick walls, why do you come to this board?

2)Just as when we were born we were dead to righteousness meaning that we had a desire for sin not righteousness.

1)I was only referring to you. Some Arminians are actually teachable. It's too bad you haven't shown that you are.

2)Bingo! And how does the Bible teach that we gain a desire for righteousness? By the regenerating, soul resurrecting power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Paul also teaches that Christians are dead to sin. Does this mean we are totally unable to sin? No.

That's only because we still have physical bodies that have not been made new yet, but we are now alive spiritually in Christ by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Before being regenerated, both spiritually and physically we desire sin. After the new birth we no longer desire sin spiritually but physically we still do as long as we live in a physical body.

Therefore, your attempt at symmetry on this subject fails.

 

[Eric B]

Also, all of us, if we had been Adam in the Garden of Eden, would have made the same choice he did.

OK, here's a good question: If our sin comes from Adam, and Adam's sin came from his fall, then what would make any of us necessarily do the same thing he did if we were there? How could this either be from the nature passed down, or the legal guilt imputed?

Since Jesus did not have an earthly father, the sin nature was not passed on to Him in His physical body.

OK, I always used to hear this as the explanation of why Jesus had to be immaculately conceived, but what is the scriptural support for it? Wouldn't this mean that someone conceived by oogenesis (a freak of nature where an ovum somehow fertilizes itself; I think this has been recorded for humans, but sorry if I'm mistaken) would be sinless? How is sin only passed down through the male?

[ April 20, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[Eric B]

How does one come up with that from Romans 5? Well, I think the main clue comes from understanding on the basis of the Adam/Christ passages that in some way things work the same through the two men, but in opposite directions. So for anything that we know happens to us in Christ, there's a good chance that the opposite must have happened to us in Adam.

I think that verse 19 of Romans 5 is pointing particularly to the idea of imputing sin: ...through one man's disobedience the many were made (appointed, classified as, categorised as) sinners.

Also, verse 18 says that through one trespass there resulted condemnation to all men, which seems to imply that because of that one act of Adam, we are all condemned. It doesn't seem to be refering in any way here to the condemnation that results from our own sin, but to some different sort of condemnation, that comes from Adam's one trespass alone.

I think the just the inheriting of the sin nature would explain those verse. Once again, I don't see a need for another form of guilt. I think a lot of the problem is overgeneralization. We know we are saved by the condition of Righteousness imputed to us from Christ, so we also think people must be condemned by the imputation of a condition of sin from Adam. But it is not that symmetrical. The Bible clearly says condemned by works; saved by grace. Acts are what God condemns people for, as we see in the actual judgement in Rev.20

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
[qb] 1)If you think Arminians are like brick walls, why do you come to this board?

2)Just as when we were born we were dead to righteousness meaning that we had a desire for sin not righteousness.

1)I was only referring to you. Some Arminians are actually teachable. It's too bad you haven't shown that you are.

Name one Arminian on this board who has changed his views after one of your posts (or any Calvinist's posts for that matter.) Plus, I've learned a lot from the Calvinists on this board. I have learned how silly I must have sounded all those years I was a Calvinist.

2)Bingo! And how does the Bible teach that we gain a desire for righteousness? By the regenerating, soul resurrecting power of the Holy Spirit.

You missed the point Ken. I was showing you how Paul compares believers to unbelievers in regard to the use of the term "dead." Follow me here it is real simple.

We are born spiritually dead meaning we have a desire for sin not righteousness. This doesn't mean our desires can't change. The revelation of God through the gospel presentation, for example, can cause one to change his desires.

So to as believers we are dead to sin meaning we have a desire for righteousness and not for sin. Does that mean we cannot sin? Obviously not. We still have the capasity to sin eventhough we are dead to it. So to, as unbelievers we had the capasity for faith though we were dead to it. Please answer that argument.

Now, to your question. One is regenerated through the means of faith. You think one has faith because he is regenerated, but that is not supported in the text.

The Spirit comes through faith (Gal. 3:14) and we see this throughout the book of Acts as many are said to have had faith and only later recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. The bible also speaks about being made alive by the gospel of truth.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Obviously not. We still have the capasity to sin eventhough we are dead to it. So to, as unbelievers we had the capasity for faith though we were dead to it. Please answer that argument.

I already did. Here, I will repeat it -

"That's only because we still have physical bodies that have not been made new yet, but we are now alive spiritually in Christ by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Before being regenerated, both spiritually and physically we desire sin. After the new birth we no longer desire sin spiritually but physically we still do as long as we live in a physical body.

Therefore, your attempt at symmetry on this subject fails."

Also, I did not say there were teachable Arminians in this forum specifically. But there are people who are free willers and even Pelagians(such as I was) who do come to embrace the Biblical truths of the doctrines of God's amazing grace.

And yes, sadly there are those who leave the Biblical truths of the doctrines of God's amazing grace and come to embrace the false teaching of free willism.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Paul also teaches that Christians are dead to sin. Does this mean we are totally unable to sin? No.

That's only because we still have physical bodies that have not been made new yet, but we are now alive spiritually in Christ by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Before being regenerated, both spiritually and physically we desire sin. After the new birth we no longer desire sin spiritually but physically we still do as long as we live in a physical body.

Therefore, your attempt at symmetry on this subject fails. </font>[/QUOTE]Still to say that we are "dead" to sin would appear to carry with it the same connotation as one being dead spiritually. Neither of which carry the idea of total inability. Instead they carry the idea of lacking a desire toward that which we are dead to, or ignorant of.

Without the Spirit residing in us we are ignorant of the things that come from the Spirit and we cannot understand them. But once someone from God who is filled with the Holy Spirit reveals the truths that can only come from the Holy Spirit within him, then we too can have knowledged of the gospel and then decide through reason if we believe it to be true. If we do believe it to be true the Holy Spirit will then indwell within us and guide us into deeper truth and lead us to tell others.

So too, once we become a believer we die to sin. In that we are to be ignorant of sin (Rom. 16:19) just as we were born ignorant of the things of God.

Adam was created knowing God and his truths. The fall made it to where we are born without any knowledge of God or his ways. Once we are made aware of Him and his ways through His messengers we must respond to what is revealed to us.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eric B:
If our sin comes from Adam, and Adam's sin came from his fall, then what would make any of us necessarily do the same thing he did if we were there?

Wouldn't this mean that someone conceived by oogenesis

1)Are you saying that if God had placed different person, such as maybe you, as the first man, that you might not have sinned? If that was possible, then why didn't God put that person in as Adam and avoid all of this misery and woe and people ending up in hell?

2)Sorry, but I have no idea what that is. I have never heard of it. But I somehow doubt it has any implications for theology.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Still to say that we are "dead" to sin would appear to carry with it the same connotation as one being dead spiritually.

The operative word in your sentence is "appear".

 

[Eric B]

1)Are you saying that if God had placed different person, such as maybe you, as the first man, that you might not have sinned? If that was possible, then why didn't God put that person in as Adam and avoid all of this misery and woe and people ending up in hell?

Well, I don't know. God could have done many things, such as preventing Adam from falling altogether, but for whatever reason He didn't, still, what principle would make all of us do the same thing? It is arrogant for us in this state to say "I wouldn't have done that", but then we're already affected by the decision, so of course we would sin now. But what would make all unfallen men sin of a necessity?

2)Sorry, but I have no idea what that is. I have never heard of it. But I somehow doubt it has any implications for theology.

Well, I'm not trying to build an argument from it, but still, if what you say is true, it would have serious implications for the theology.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Still to say that we are "dead" to sin would appear to carry with it the same connotation as one being dead spiritually.

The operative word in your sentence is "appear". </font>[/QUOTE]"Appear" is better than "assume," which is what you must do in order to draw you conclusions. I have a parallel of the use of the word "dead" which doesn't mean totally unable. You have nothing except your opinions and assumptions.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
You have nothing except your opinions and assumptions.

To which I plead guilty. So what? That's all any mortal man or woman can do in this flesh.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
You have nothing except your opinions and assumptions.

To which I plead guilty. So what? That's all any mortal man or woman can do in this flesh. </font>[/QUOTE]It's just sad that you base the foundation of your theology on the assumption that "dead" must mean "totally unable to believe," especially in light of the fact that the word "dead" is used in regard to sin without that same connotation.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
It's just sad that you base the foundation of your theology on the assumption that "dead" must mean "totally unable to believe,"

Ain't nothing you can do about it. I hope you don't lose any sleep over it.