The plot to secede from the Union!

[Quantrill]

No contradiction.
The invasion by Babylon on Judah was wrong, but God ordained the rule of Babylon over Judah. Same principal.
God uses evil to accomplish His purposes.
God provides many paradoxes for us in scripture.
The fact is rebellion is wrong, yet God took such a rebellion and raised up a nation where Christians could live in relative peace.

Sure was a contradiction. If it was God that established the U.S. government, then, as an American, one would be right in fighting for independence from England.

It wasn't wrong for Babylon to invade Judah. Where do you get that?

Not all rebellion is wrong. Read the book of Judges. God raised up many judges to deliver His people at times. I'ts only called 'rebellion' if you lose.

Quantrill

 

[SGO]

Ok. I was not talking about soldiers but if that is the way you want to respond then what army is there in Christian part of America that will rebel against the government and use scripture to justify it?

There are plenty who will rebel but there is no scripture, or at least I have not seen any.

And you know what?, if prayer and trying to find out a proper motive for killing are nothing then they're nothing.

This is good:

"Understand, and don't misrepresent me in this. I do not encourage open rebellion. I believe I have said before here, that true political legitimacy is needed. For example State Governors. Truly elected officials. As a citizen of the State, I answer first to my State. If conflict arises between the Federal govt. and my State, I support my State. I am true to obeying the powers that be as the powers that be is my State."



I answered to the best of my ability your question about God and the nations.

If you want God established America as "a Christian nation," I cannot answer that but with this:

And hath made
of one blood
all nations
of men
for to dwell
on the face of the earth,
and has determined
the times before appointed,
and the bounds of their habitation.
Acts 17:26

 

[robycop3]

Should they have been allowed to leave the Union?

I believe they wanted to replace the top govt. officials with men more to their liking insteada leaving the union.

 

[AustinC]

Sure was a contradiction. If it was God that established the U.S. government, then, as an American, one would be right in fighting for independence from England.

It wasn't wrong for Babylon to invade Judah. Where do you get that?

Not all rebellion is wrong. Read the book of Judges. God raised up many judges to deliver His people at times. I'ts only called 'rebellion' if you lose.

Quantrill

That's like saying "If God established Babylon as a nation, it would be right if Jews fought for Babylon." Your reasoning is silly.
God ordained the rise of Babylon, despite it's wicked rise. God ordained the rise of the US despite its wicked rebellion. God often uses the wickedness of men to accomplish His perfect, sovereign will.
The US is not Israel. George Washington and crew were not judges in Israel.

 

[Quantrill]

Ok. I was not talking about soldiers but if that is the way you want to respond then what army is there in Christian part of America that will rebel against the government and use scripture to justify it?

There are plenty who will rebel but there is no scripture, or at least I have not seen any.

And you know what?, if prayer and trying to find out a proper motive for killing are nothing then they're nothing.

This is good:

"Understand, and don't misrepresent me in this. I do not encourage open rebellion. I believe I have said before here, that true political legitimacy is needed. For example State Governors. Truly elected officials. As a citizen of the State, I answer first to my State. If conflict arises between the Federal govt. and my State, I support my State. I am true to obeying the powers that be as the powers that be is my State."



I answered to the best of my ability your question about God and the nations.

If you want God established America as "a Christian nation," I cannot answer that but with this:

And hath made
of one blood
all nations
of men
for to dwell
on the face of the earth,
and has determined
the times before appointed,
and the bounds of their habitation.
Acts 17:26

Where is the verse that says it is sin to kill anyone for political freedom? Please show me. Why did you avoid this?

No, you have avoided the questions to the best of your ability. (Acts 17:26) answers nothing to my question.

It's not me. It's God that established America as a Christian nation. You don't believe it or you would have answered instead of avoiding it.

Why do you argue so much concerning politics? That can't be Christian, according to you. I find no verse that says we are to go to forums and argue politics. Where did you get this from? Why do you spend time in such nonspiritual endeavors?

You're like so many. You want things the way they were and should be under a Christian America. But you want others to do the dirty work when push comes to shove. And of course all the while you will be criticizing them as so not like Christ. Because of course, you so are.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

That's like saying "If God established Babylon as a nation, it would be right if Jews fought for Babylon." Your reasoning is silly.
God ordained the rise of Babylon, despite it's wicked rise. God ordained the rise of the US despite its wicked rebellion. God often uses the wickedness of men to accomplish His perfect, sovereign will.
The US is not Israel. George Washington and crew were not judges in Israel.

No, what is contradictory is you saying God established America but the Americans were wrong in fighting against England.

You say the US is not Israel and Washington and crew were not judges in Israel. OK. The US is not Israel. And England was not Babylon. So why did you bring up your silly comparison?

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

No, what is contradictory is you saying God established America but the Americans were wrong in fighting against England.

You say the US is not Israel and Washington and crew were not judges in Israel. OK. The US is not Israel. And England was not Babylon. So why did you bring up your silly comparison?

Quantrill

Because you cannot comprehend what I am saying. I will just let you misunderstand.

 

[SGO]

Where is the verse that says it is sin to kill anyone for political freedom? Please show me. Why did you avoid this?

No, you have avoided the questions to the best of your ability. (Acts 17:26) answers nothing to my question.

It's not me. It's God that established America as a Christian nation. You don't believe it or you would have answered instead of avoiding it.

Why do you argue so much concerning politics? That can't be Christian, according to you. I find no verse that says we are to go to forums and argue politics. Where did you get this from? Why do you spend time in such nonspiritual endeavors?

You're like so many. You want things the way they were and should be under a Christian America. But you want others to do the dirty work when push comes to shove. And of course all the while you will be criticizing them as so not like Christ. Because of course, you so are.

Quantrill

Sorry did not see your question or I was distracted.

Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:13

Submit yourselves
to every ordinance of man
for the Lord's sake.
1 Peter 2:13

No I did answer to the best of my ability.
The truth is I don't know because there are conflicting views and no scripture to prove it.
Were some Christians involved in setting up our nation?
Yes
There were plenty of non Christians too.
God's hand was behind it as much as His hand is in the setting up of any nation.

We have a difference of opinion.
You want America to be divinely created in a special sense.
You have not given any proof of it.
Go ahead and call me names.
At least attempt to prove your assertions.

 

[Quantrill]

Because you cannot comprehend what I am saying. I will just let you misunderstand.

Sure. Wise choice.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Sorry did not see your question or I was distracted.

Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:13

Submit yourselves
to every ordinance of man
for the Lord's sake.
1 Peter 2:13

No I did answer to the best of my ability.
The truth is I don't know because there are conflicting views and no scripture to prove it.
Were some Christians involved in setting up our nation?
Yes
There were plenty of non Christians too.
God's hand was behind it as much as His hand is in the setting up of any nation.

We have a difference of opinion.
You want America to be divinely created in a special sense.
You have not given any proof of it.
Go ahead and call me names.
At least attempt to prove your assertions.

Oh. Thou Shalt Not Kill. You're saying that is the Scripture that proves it is a sin to kill anyone for political freedom? The problem with that is it doesn't say that. And I know you are a stickler for exact words.

If 'thou shalt not kill' covers every killing done by man, then why did God institute the death penalty to be enacted by man in (Gen. 9:6)? And why did God institute the animal sacrifices to be killed which were part of the same law that the 10 commandments were found?

'Thou shalt not kill' is not a blanket verse to be used in every instance of the human existence. The intent is murder.

So, your verse didn't work. Do you have another. Oh. I see. (1 Peter 2:13) 'Submit yourself to every ordinance of man'. And just how do you perceive I am disobeying that? In fact, how are you obeying it?

America was divinely created. I have given proof of that before. You want exact words that says some where in the Bible that America is divinely created. And you don't have that. So you must act all confused. Yet you don't provide me any proof from the Bible that says you are supposed to be arguing politics on a forum. And of course you ignored that. So...how worldly of you to do so.

I don't remember calling you names. I did describe you, but don't remember calling you any names.

So, where in the Scripture does it say that it is a sin to kill someone for political views? Where in the Scripture does it say you are to argue politics on a forum?

Quantrill

 

[SGO]

Oh. Thou Shalt Not Kill. You're saying that is the Scripture that proves it is a sin to kill anyone for political freedom? The problem with that is it doesn't say that. And I know you are a stickler for exact words.

If 'thou shalt not kill' covers every killing done by man, then why did God institute the death penalty to be enacted by man in (Gen. 9:6)? And why did God institute the animal sacrifices to be killed which were part of the same law that the 10 commandments were found?

'Thou shalt not kill' is not a blanket verse to be used in every instance of the human existence. The intent is murder.

So, your verse didn't work. Do you have another. Oh. I see. (1 Peter 2:13) 'Submit yourself to every ordinance of man'. And just how do you perceive I am disobeying that? In fact, how are you obeying it?

America was divinely created. I have given proof of that before. You want exact words that says some where in the Bible that America is divinely created. And you don't have that. So you must act all confused. Yet you don't provide me any proof from the Bible that says you are supposed to be arguing politics on a forum. And of course you ignored that. So...how worldly of you to do so.

I don't remember calling you names. I did describe you, but don't remember calling you any names.

So, where in the Scripture does it say that it is a sin to kill someone for political views? Where in the Scripture does it say you are to argue politics on a forum?

Quantrill

Yes you are correct again. "I don't remember calling you names. I did describe you, but don't remember calling you any names."


"...why did God institute the death penalty to be enacted by man in (Gen. 9:6)?"

Death penalty for taking life which God made in His image.


Except for sociopaths I understand that many soldiers have some sort of remorse for killing their "enemies."
But they are not really our enemies according to scripture for they have flesh and blood. In general, with exceptions, they have been brain washed into thinking their country (like North Korea now or Japan in WWII) is the greatest and that they are on some kind of exalted mission to protect or enhance their motherland.


"America was divinely created. I have given proof of that before."

I don't recall reading that on this thread.

Sorry, I have not read all your posts on this forum.
I do remember a few about other topics and they were about things I had never heard of.


"Yet you don't provide me any proof from the Bible that says you are supposed to be arguing politics on a forum. And of course you ignored that. So...how worldly of you to do so."

Yes I did not answer all your points. I am very worldly. And politics is still, for the most part, a way to enable change in a non violent way.


You know something else? I know your arguments are weak just because you take the time to "describe" me.
I certainly have not caused you to stop and consider but right away you have "described" me to your satisfaction so the things I say are irrelevant or threaten you in some way. Now they are targets for shooting practice.

You are sure of your stand.


'Submit yourself to every ordinance of man'. And just how do you perceive I am disobeying that? In fact, how are you obeying it?

Do you think the current administration will make it easy on people of faith? No. They may ask us to do things we would normally find distasteful. If trying to elect senators and other officials fails to rid the government of them then what will we do? The scenario I have read on several places on this forum is that it may come down to a fight not of just words and ideas. With all that would it not be a good idea to have the teaching of the bible as a support for what ever kind of action taken, actual fight or submission to authorities.

Jesus was the most wronged person by religious and political authorities. He had the most right and justification to fight yet He did not.

I want to think about how to justify whatever I do or do not do with the bible as a support.

 

[Quantrill]

Yes you are correct again. "I don't remember calling you names. I did describe you, but don't remember calling you any names."


"...why did God institute the death penalty to be enacted by man in (Gen. 9:6)?"

Death penalty for taking life which God made in His image.


Except for sociopaths I understand that many soldiers have some sort of remorse for killing their "enemies."
But they are not really our enemies according to scripture for they have flesh and blood. In general, with exceptions, they have been brain washed into thinking their country (like North Korea now or Japan in WWII) is the greatest and that they are on some kind of exalted mission to protect or enhance their motherland.


"America was divinely created. I have given proof of that before."

I don't recall reading that on this thread.

Sorry, I have not read all your posts on this forum.
I do remember a few about other topics and they were about things I had never heard of.


"Yet you don't provide me any proof from the Bible that says you are supposed to be arguing politics on a forum. And of course you ignored that. So...how worldly of you to do so."

Yes I did not answer all your points. I am very worldly. And politics is still, for the most part, a way to enable change in a non violent way.


You know something else? I know your arguments are weak just because you take the time to "describe" me.
I certainly have not caused you to stop and consider but right away you have "described" me to your satisfaction so the things I say are irrelevant or threaten you in some way. Now they are targets for shooting practice.

You are sure of your stand.


'Submit yourself to every ordinance of man'. And just how do you perceive I am disobeying that? In fact, how are you obeying it?

Do you think the current administration will make it easy on people of faith? No. They may ask us to do things we would normally find distasteful. If trying to elect senators and other officials fails to rid the government of them then what will we do? The scenario I have read on several places on this forum is that it may come down to a fight not of just words and ideas. With all that would it not be a good idea to have the teaching of the bible as a support for what ever kind of action taken, actual fight or submission to authorities.

Jesus was the most wronged person by religious and political authorities. He had the most right and justification to fight yet He did not.

I want to think about how to justify whatever I do or do not do with the bible as a support.

You gave no answer to questions. Why? Because there is no place in Scripture where it says exactly that you are not to argue politics on a forum. And, there is no place in Scripture where it says it is a sin to kill someone for political views. Your use of 'thou shalt not kill' does not apply as was shown.

Politics is not non-violent. It is very violent. At times it progresses to the physical fighting and war. But before the physical fighting takes place, the fighting with words and argument takes place. If one is not willing in his position to follow his political stance to the actual physical fighting, then he shouldn't be making a political stand. My opinion. That doesn't mean you have to be one of those doing the physical fighting. But it certainly means you shouldn't attack those that do as wrong as they are siding with your political views. If you believe it is wrong to partake in politics or in the fighting that results from politics, then you should't be arguing politics.

Just because I described you doesn't make my argument weak. Who established that as an axiom?

How am I disobeying (1 Peter 2:13)? Do we as believers submit to the homosexual approval and protections established by law now in our country. Do we as believers submit to the approval and protections of abortion established by law now in our country. No matter which party you vote for, you vote for that because both will approve of that. All of which the founders of our country would have revolted over such things. Were the Russians wrong in fighting against the Bolsheviks and Communism during the Bolshevik revolution? After the Bolsheviks came to power, were Russians wrong fighting in 1989 against Communism when it fell?

Jesus had another mission in view other than the establishment of the Kingdom. The Cross.

Every signer of the Declaration of Independence knew they were signing their death warrant. If they failed, they would all be hung for treason. Many of these were Christian. I do not see them as wrong in what they did, as others do.

If you can't come to grips with what you as a Christian should do if war breaks out, then I wouldn't be arguing politics. Don't kid yourself that you are taking a non-violent stand in just arguing and debate.

Quantrill

 

[xlsdraw]

Why don't y'all start a thread called "Is America a Christian Nation?" Or something similar.

 

[Salty]

Why don't y'all start a thread called "Is America a Christian Nation?" Or something similar.

The same question could be directed to you

 

[xlsdraw]

The same question could be directed to you

Is their running argument

 

[SGO]

You gave no answer to questions. Why? Because there is no place in Scripture where it says exactly that you are not to argue politics on a forum. And, there is no place in Scripture where it says it is a sin to kill someone for political views. Your use of 'thou shalt not kill' does not apply as was shown.

Politics is not non-violent. It is very violent. At times it progresses to the physical fighting and war. But before the physical fighting takes place, the fighting with words and argument takes place. If one is not willing in his position to follow his political stance to the actual physical fighting, then he shouldn't be making a political stand. My opinion. That doesn't mean you have to be one of those doing the physical fighting. But it certainly means you shouldn't attack those that do as wrong as they are siding with your political views. If you believe it is wrong to partake in politics or in the fighting that results from politics, then you should't be arguing politics.

Just because I described you doesn't make my argument weak. Who established that as an axiom?

How am I disobeying (1 Peter 2:13)? Do we as believers submit to the homosexual approval and protections established by law now in our country. Do we as believers submit to the approval and protections of abortion established by law now in our country. No matter which party you vote for, you vote for that because both will approve of that. All of which the founders of our country would have revolted over such things. Were the Russians wrong in fighting against the Bolsheviks and Communism during the Bolshevik revolution? After the Bolsheviks came to power, were Russians wrong fighting in 1989 against Communism when it fell?

Jesus had another mission in view other than the establishment of the Kingdom. The Cross.

Every signer of the Declaration of Independence knew they were signing their death warrant. If they failed, they would all be hung for treason. Many of these were Christian. I do not see them as wrong in what they did, as others do.

If you can't come to grips with what you as a Christian should do if war breaks out, then I wouldn't be arguing politics. Don't kid yourself that you are taking a non-violent stand in just arguing and debate.

Quantrill

I am pleased you take the time to respond Quantrill but I also see you missed some things I said so then the missing is not just me.

I did give answers but you do not like the way I do it and think I am always being evasive.
I don't "know" like you know so in that respect suppose you could say I'm lagging behind.

Just to let you know right now I am not going to address all your points and I think you follow that method too.


There is no axiom about describing but there is something about ad hominem and that is where I put "describing." Or you may see it as another tactic in argument but it is personal.


And please do not put me in with that other person.


I am taking the stand I can without physically assaulting people by posting in political forums.
Sorry to disappoint but have been into some form of political interchange since I was 10 years old so it ain't going away.
Besides I get news there too. Helps me form opinion which will lead to whatever action that will be taken. One action is voting.
You are for that, right? as you have stated previously.



"If you believe it is wrong to partake in politics or in the fighting that results from politics, then you shouldn't be arguing politics. "
"But before the physical fighting takes place, the fighting with words and argument takes place. "


I am "arguing" with you right now but I do not want to do any physical harm to you. Doesn't follow that there will be violence by arguing on this forum. I do not believe it is wrong to partake in politics. It's the physical violence I am concerned about.
Lots of people partake in politics without physical violence even from arguments in the world outside of this forum. Some on this forum have been treated poorly without actual physical violence however, and have left because of it. Maybe they left because their arguments did not persuade anyone and they were upset about it but plenty of them got abuse thrown at them by the opposition.


Do we as believers submit to the homosexual approval and protections established by law now in our country. Do we as believers submit to the approval and protections of abortion established by law now in our country. No matter which party you vote for, you vote for that because both will approve of that.

So then buy the last statement you vote for it too.
We are to expose the works of darkness but we have a culture that allows for it and also a "live and let live " mind set too.


You cannot prove by scripture that it is ok to take up arms when scripture says our enemies are NOT flesh and blood.
The world says it's ok to take up arms when freedom is threatened but not the scriptures.
You said I'm worldly so by that I just might take up the arms especially if my flesh is convinced it's correct.

 

[Quantrill]

I am pleased you take the time to respond Quantrill but I also see you missed some things I said so then the missing is not just me.

I did give answers but you do not like the way I do it and think I am always being evasive.
I don't "know" like you know so in that respect suppose you could say I'm lagging behind.

Just to let you know right now I am not going to address all your points and I think you follow that method too.


There is no axiom about describing but there is something about ad hominem and that is where I put "describing." Or you may see it as another tactic in argument but it is personal.


And please do not put me in with that other person.


I am taking the stand I can without physically assaulting people by posting in political forums.
Sorry to disappoint but have been into some form of political interchange since I was 10 years old so it ain't going away.
Besides I get news there too. Helps me form opinion which will lead to whatever action that will be taken. One action is voting.
You are for that, right? as you have stated previously.



"If you believe it is wrong to partake in politics or in the fighting that results from politics, then you shouldn't be arguing politics. "
"But before the physical fighting takes place, the fighting with words and argument takes place. "


I am "arguing" with you right now but I do not want to do any physical harm to you. Doesn't follow that there will be violence by arguing on this forum. I do not believe it is wrong to partake in politics. It's the physical violence I am concerned about.
Lots of people partake in politics without physical violence even from arguments in the world outside of this forum. Some on this forum have been treated poorly without actual physical violence however, and have left because of it. Maybe they left because their arguments did not persuade anyone and they were upset about it but plenty of them got abuse thrown at them by the opposition.


Do we as believers submit to the homosexual approval and protections established by law now in our country. Do we as believers submit to the approval and protections of abortion established by law now in our country. No matter which party you vote for, you vote for that because both will approve of that.

So then buy the last statement you vote for it too.
We are to expose the works of darkness but we have a culture that allows for it and also a "live and let live " mind set too.


You cannot prove by scripture that it is ok to take up arms when scripture says our enemies are NOT flesh and blood.
The world says it's ok to take up arms when freedom is threatened but not the scriptures.
You said I'm worldly so by that I just might take up the arms especially if my flesh is convinced it's correct.

I don't recall saying you're worldly. Did I? I said you are deceiving yourself in thinking politics is not violent. And I said if you are not willing to support or take up arms in light of your political position, then you should be quiet about politics.

You are another 'bay of pigs'.

If you don't want to take up arms then don't. You're the one that said you didn't know. So, if you know, then don't. Just be quiet and don't make out like you really believe something when you're not willing to fight for it.

Quantrill

 

[SGO]

I don't recall saying you're worldly. Did I? I said you are deceiving yourself in thinking politics is not violent. And I said if you are not willing to support or take up arms in light of your political position, then you should be quiet about politics.

You are another 'bay of pigs'.

If you don't want to take up arms then don't. You're the one that said you didn't know. So, if you know, then don't. Just be quiet and don't make out like you really believe something when you're not willing to fight for it.

Quantrill

Where is your scriptural proof by example or principle that America is God's special creation apart from all the other nations?
The only one that fits is Israel.

Don't know does not equate to don't take up.

By the way you will have to shoot me for I will not be quiet.
Find the scripture for that if you need it to justify yourself.

You want to fight for the right to silence those who do not agree with you.

 

[Quantrill]

Where is your scriptural proof by example or principle that America is God's special creation apart from all the other nations?
The only one that fits is Israel.

Don't know does not equate to don't take up.

By the way you will have to shoot me for I will not be quiet.
Find the scripture for that if you need it to justify yourself.

You want to fight for the right to silence those who do not agree with you.

You won't find the word 'America' in the Bible. So, with you, there is no Scriptural proof that America is established by God. In fact there isn't any Scriptural proof that America exists. Where does it say in the Scripture that America exists at all?

Yes, I know you won't be quiet just as I know you won't stand up if it came to it and support what you argue about. You're too spiritual to do that. And you know others will, so just let them do it. You stir the pot, and then when the fight starts you back off and bemoan how unchristian all are.

As I said, another Bay of Pigs.

Quantrill

 

[Scott Downey]

U.S. Discovered In The Bible | Endtime Ministries | Irvin Baxter and Dave Robbins

Perhaps America is mentioned in the bible, as the wings of an eagle (USA), plucked off the Lion, (Great Britain)
The woman (Israel) who gave birth to the Messiah, was given the wings of an eagle (USA) to be flown to safety.
USA has been the only country really to have supported and protected modern Israel.

Russia the bear,
Germany the Leopard, leads the EU
Britain the Lion, was a premier world power
USA the eagle.

These world powers still impact Israel today.
Countries like Japan, China, do not. Africa, Central South America, India, Middle East are nothing and never will be world powers. Although China has been recently stretching its influence across the world. The 4 mentioned have Christian histories. And the Antichrist's rises from a nation with a Christian past.