The point of intoxication

[Helen]

Is this true for cough medicines that contain alcohol? What about much stronger, and more dangerous drugs one gets with a prescription? The post in question was concerning the fact that there was a genetic abnormality that made alcohol one of the few things this family can take.

Thank you. That was the point.

Paradoxic drug reactions means you don't know what is going to happen at any given time. For me, that very much includes all pain killers, muscle relaxers, and such like. I have been in the hospital emergency because of darvon, with a spastic esophagus (no fun -- it's like a massive, long-lasting heart attack going from armpit to armpit). But the darvon before that one (this was following a surgery) had had no effect at all. I had carpal tunnel surgery this past July. We tried vicodin. The first one worked well. The second time, a day later, it put me to sleep. A day later it hyped me up so entirely that I was ready to scrub floors, tile a roof, and hoe up the yard...

For us, wine is safe and predictable. When my son was younger, he could not take anything with coal tar preservatives in it. There went ALL cough syrups. So we got a 'grandma's recipe' from our pediatrician: 1/3 honey, 1/3 lemon juice, 1/3 vodka (it is clear and has no extra flavoring or coloring). It tastes so vile that NNE is tempted to take more than a spoonful, but it is the most effective cough syrup I have seen.

Do I 'drink'? Sure! Tea, mostly. Lots of water. Not much on milk. No pop anymore -- well, once in awhile on a hot day a Pepsi One -- but mostly water. And every once in awhile a glass of wine. Did my father drink? Some when he was younger and not at all when he was older. Does my son drink? I have seen him have a glass of wine occasionally. I have never seen him even the most slightly high.

Please, pay attention to what is being said. God gave us wine. He gave us food. He gave us sex. He gave us lots of good things.

Any one of which can destroy us taken the wrong way.

Even too much water can kill you.

Certainly too much salt can.

But try living without them....

 

[DHK]

I don't doubt it at all. I have paradoxic drug reactions and for me wine is one of the few things which will not produce a paradoxic reaction in me. I inherited the condition from my father and my son also has it. I doubt we are the first people in history. In the meantime, I can guarantee to you that medically wine is far, far safer than most drugs on the market today.

This is a lame argument Helen. How many prescription drugs did the nation of Israel take. You are comparing apples with oranges. In fact you are making an unfair cmparison altogether. There were no prescription drugs in Jesus day. Neither were there wines made in the same fashion as they are today, with the potency that we have in our wines today.

Are you calling me a drunk? I am a born again Christian, a child of my Lord, and I have absolutely no compunction about drinking a glass of wine occasionally. There may have been a way to preserve the grapes by making a syrup out of them, boiling it down, and that was fine. But the Passover wine was not that. It was wine. Or do you think that God somehow 'goofed' when He put the yeast on the outer skins of so many fruits?

Don't be so easily offended. You admitted you got drunk once. We all sin.
How many times does it take to murder in order to be called a murderer?
How many times does it take to commit adultery to be called an adultress?
How many times does it take to lie to called a liar?
How many times does it take to get drunk to be called a drunkard?
Why are you offended? You opened the door--born again or not. David committed adultery and then murder. You are capable of the same sins; born again or not.

In Deut. 32, it is the wine of those who have forgotten God which is considered the poison of asps. Jesus most certainly had not forgotten God. Nor have I. Job 20:14 identifies the very meat in the intestines of the wicked as the poison of asps. Yet I am willing to bet you eat meat...

Now, compare what is said about wine in a couple of other places:

Right after it is said that it is not right for kings to drink wine (Prov. 31:4-5), PLEASE note the very next verse, which states, "Give strong drink unto him that ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy heart."

Now, if it is alcoholic wine in verse four, what makes you think the definition has changed in verse six?

Because the wine that is mentioned in verse four is a literary device known as comparative negative. It isn't saying to give wine (in a positive light) to them that are perishing. It is saying it in rather a sarcastic way. Learn more about literary devices before trying to use this one to justify alcoholic beverages.

In Genesis 14:18, the wine that Melchizedek brought out to Abram is the same word for wine that Noah got drunk on. Christ is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, and Melchizedek was a king of righteousness, right?

Wrong. That is simply your interpretation, and your reading into the text. There is nothing to suggest that Abraham offered a fermented beverage. Yayin can mean either fermented or unfermented beverage. Only the ocntext gives the correct interpretation. You are reading "fermented" iinto the context only because of your bias toward fermented beverages. That is called bias.

If you look in 1 Chronicles 27:27, you will see that David had vineyards and winemakers. in 2 Chron. 2, Solomon used wheat, barley, wine, and oil as payment for the cedars of Lebanon. Are wheat, barley, and oil evil? I hardly think so

David had many wives, as did Solomon. He was also a murderer and an adulterer. He lilled to obtain another man's wife. Not everything David did was right. You can't always use OT history to justify those things that are right. Is polygamy also commneded by God?

Proverbs 21:17 is interesting: "He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich."

Is pleasure evil? No, but the love of it can lead to poverty.
Is oil evil? The word there for oil is 'shemen' which refers to perfumed oil, the oil of anointing, or simple olive oil. It comes from a primary root meaning 'to shine.' (Just wanted to make sure this was not confused with the oil in the Mideast turmoil right now...). No, olive oil and perfumed oils are not evil, but the love of being 'shiny' or putting on a good appearance can certainly lead one to poverty.

You are still assuming that the wine is referring to an alcoholic beverage with no good reason. Remember that the Millennial kingdom is referred to as a land of milk and honey far more than it is referred to as a land of wine. But neither milk or honey are fermented. Why then would one assume that grape juice should be fermented?

So is wine evil? No. But the LOVE of wine leads to poverty. Not because the wine is so expensive (although some is), but because loving it means you are drinking a lot of it and therefore are pretty woozy a good part of the time, which makes you a rather chancy bet for supporting your household...

Paul preached before Felix "temperance", and Felix trembled. It just wasn't alcohol that Felix was intemperate, but it was food, gluttony, and perhaps other things. Covetousness is perhaps the most common sin a Christian commits. The love of anything, computers included, is sin. It doesn't even have to be food. The love of________(fill in the blank) leads to poverty. Many a young person is brought to financial ruin because of their love for cars, not for their love of wine (or grape juice or food).
I'll just respond to this much for now.
DHK

 

[Lagardo]

Why would God tell His people that alcohol is forbidden (which He has), and then give them a disease that can only be controlled by alcohol? He wouldn't!

He wouldn't advise someone to drink a little wine for their stomache's sake either?

But I digress...I am way off the OP again.

 

[Jack Matthews]

Thanks for your lengthy, but very accurate and well researched information, Helen. I've been through all of that information on at least a dozen occasions, including an entire week spent on the subject in a "Teachings of Jesus" class at a divinity school. The complications of word study in the scripture using Greek and Hebrew are difficult enough. When you try to discipher King James English, especially with regard to words like "winebibber", it gets even more complicated.

There are obviously some people who are not going to be satisfied until they validate their own personal preferences and beliefs with scripture, even if they have to take it completely out of context and use an obscure verse or reference in antiquated, outdated language to do it.

If you are going to do serious study of the Bible, you need more than a King James Version and a pencil. I don't think it is necessary to know Greek or Hebrew, but being able to use a good lexicon to do the word study is essential. The most important element is to be able to rely on the Spirit to illuminate the passages.

It is inconsistent to continue to insist that you are right about a particular issue, but use language that berates those who disagree. You might want to check out Colossians 4:6. It is good advice.

 

[Helen]

DHK, there were certainly a number of what we would call Rx drugs in Jesus' day. Most were in the opiate family and were taken on the advice of a physician.

It is a valid comparison I was making.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Thank you. That was the point.

Paradoxic drug reactions means you don't know what is going to happen at any given time. For me, that very much includes all pain killers, muscle relaxers, and such like. I have been in the hospital emergency because of darvon, with a spastic esophagus (no fun -- it's like a massive, long-lasting heart attack going from armpit to armpit). But the darvon before that one (this was following a surgery) had had no effect at all. I had carpal tunnel surgery this past July. We tried vicodin. The first one worked well. The second time, a day later, it put me to sleep. A day later it hyped me up so entirely that I was ready to scrub floors, tile a roof, and hoe up the yard...

For us, wine is safe and predictable. When my son was younger, he could not take anything with coal tar preservatives in it. There went ALL cough syrups. So we got a 'grandma's recipe' from our pediatrician: 1/3 honey, 1/3 lemon juice, 1/3 vodka (it is clear and has no extra flavoring or coloring). It tastes so vile that NNE is tempted to take more than a spoonful, but it is the most effective cough syrup I have seen.

Do I 'drink'? Sure! Tea, mostly. Lots of water. Not much on milk. No pop anymore -- well, once in awhile on a hot day a Pepsi One -- but mostly water. And every once in awhile a glass of wine. Did my father drink? Some when he was younger and not at all when he was older. Does my son drink? I have seen him have a glass of wine occasionally. I have never seen him even the most slightly high.

Please, pay attention to what is being said. God gave us wine. He gave us food. He gave us sex. He gave us lots of good things.

Any one of which can destroy us taken the wrong way.

Even too much water can kill you.

Certainly too much salt can.

But try living without them....

Scripture tells me that God gave alcoholic wine to the wicked... Are you trying to say that God wants His children to be wicked?

 

[DHK]

DHK, there were certainly a number of what we would call Rx drugs in Jesus' day. Most were in the opiate family and were taken on the advice of a physician.

It is a valid comparison I was making.

I won't believe that unless you document it. I have lived in third world countries. They don't have access to prescriptions drugs to this day--2,000 years later. What makes you think they had drugs then. The best they could do was take a few herbal remedies, some that worked, and some that didn't. They could chew on a clove, for example to get rid of a tooth-ache. Ginger was some-times used for stomach-aches, etc. These are your so-called prescription drugs. These are nothing compared to the medications that control epilepsy, the insulin for diabetes, the drugs used for heart patients, etc. Your comparison is, to put it mildly, ridiculous.
DHK

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

He wouldn't advise someone to drink a little wine for their stomache's sake either?

But I digress...I am way off the OP again.

Not alcoholic wine as you are supposing.

 

[James_Newman]

How much wine do you have to drink before you are drunk? I don't know. A better question might be how many foolish decisions do you have to make before you are a fool?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

How much wine do you have to drink before you are drunk? I don't know. A better question might be how many foolish decisions do you have to make before you are a fool?

One foolish decision.

One foolish decision to lie makes one a lying fool
One foolish decision to steal makes one a thieving fool
One foolish decision to kill makes one a murdering fool
One foolish decision to drink makes one a drunken fool
One foolish decision.

 

[DHK]

DHK, there were certainly a number of what we would call Rx drugs in Jesus' day. Most were in the opiate family and were taken on the advice of a physician.

It is a valid comparison I was making.

If this comparison is in any way valid at all, then it is a very good argument that Jesus would have never created fermented wine at the wedding of Cana. To this day, there are hundreds, if not thousands or more that must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages because if they don't the reaction between the alcohol and the prescription drugs and the alcohol would be devastating to their health if not even fatal. Would Jesus put people in that positon. Would he knowingly cause the death of others who may be on prescription drugs and could not take alcohol, but because Jesus made it, it must be okay to do it. I don't think so.

The passover was kept by children as well as adults. Is four or five glasses of alcoholic beverages okay for small children?

Even doctors today recommend total abstinece for all pregant women. Fetal alcohol syndrome is an ever growing problem in our society. How much is too much? It is true that this may be caused by those who get drunk often. But then why do doctors sternly tell their patients: NO alcoholic beverages whatsoever during your pregnancy! I don't know of any family practioner that has recommended alcoholic beverages for anything. They damage the brain cells. It leads to poor health--particularly cirrhosis of the liver. It kills in more ways than one--ask MADD, if you have heard of that organization (Mothers against drunk driving). It only takes one drink to lead one on the road to drunkenenss, just like it only takes one cigarette to start that addiction. And yet you still say that Jesus advocated all of this. Incredible!
DHK

 

[webdog]

Even doctors today recommend total abstinece for all pregant women.

Not so. We just had a baby, and the Dr. told my wife a glass of wine daily is fine...but no more than 3 or 4.

 

[webdog]

Source?

Let me get this straight: Horace made superior wine to the Lord of Hosts?
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees (dead yeast sediment killed off by the alcohol as a resul of natural fermentation where alcohol content reaches or exceeds 14%), of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

HBSMN, are you going to provide a source for this Horace dude or not?

 

[Deacon]

Even doctors today recommend total abstinece for all pregant women. Fetal alcohol syndrome is an ever growing problem in our society. How much is too much? It is true that this may be caused by those who get drunk often. But then why do doctors sternly tell their patients: NO alcoholic beverages whatsoever during your pregnancy! I don't know of any family practioner that has recommended alcoholic beverages for anything. They damage the brain cells.

It's been awhile since I was in the labor and delivery unit but one of the ways that we slowed labor down in the 70's and 80's was to start an alcohol infusion.
It seemed to mellow the ladies down too. :sleeping_2:

Alcohol may be one of the earliest drugs known to man.
Dangerous, yes... but useful in moderation.

Rob

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

HBSMN, are you going to provide a source for this Horace dude or not?

Go back and read the Leighton Campbell quotes. He quoted Horace.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It's been awhile since I was in the labor and delivery unit but one of the ways that we slowed labor down in the 70's and 80's was to start an alcohol infusion.
It seemed to mellow the ladies down too. :sleeping_2:

Alcohol may be one of the earliest drugs known to man.
Dangerous, yes... but useful in moderation.

Rob

And there ya go, DHK, still another to refute the Word of God by stating alcohol is good in moderation.

Apparently doctors know more than God.

 

[webdog]

Go back and read the Leighton Campbell quotes. He quoted Horace.

OK...what's his source? This sounds like either a hoax or fairy tale.

 

[DHK]

It's been awhile since I was in the labor and delivery unit but one of the ways that we slowed labor down in the 70's and 80's was to start an alcohol infusion.
It seemed to mellow the ladies down too. :sleeping_2:

Alcohol may be one of the earliest drugs known to man.
Dangerous, yes... but useful in moderation.

Rob

That was a long time ago. Doctors have changed since new research came out. Isn't it funny how doctors change their mind regularly, but the Word of God changes never.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Excuse me, I misstated the age of Horace. He was born 65 years before Christ. He died 4 years before Christ's birth.

Leighton's source from Horace?

Horace, born 65 BC, states:
There is no wine sweeter to drink than Lesbian, that it was like nectar, and more resembled ambrosia than wine; that it was perfectly harmless, and would not produce intoxication. Anti-Bacchus p. 220

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

That was a long time ago. Doctors have changed since new research came out. Isn't it funny how doctors change their mind regularly, but the Word of God changes never.

Amen, DHK.

Funny, I do not remember my wife being offered alcohol during labor. Back in 77. And thinking about her brings a pain to my heart because she was killed in a car accident... by a drunk driver.