The Poll about the Death Penalty -

[1689Dave]

It would be appreciated if you would answer the question straightforward.

Ask the question as basic as you can, so I don't misunderstand it. I'll then answer.

 

[1689Dave]

So you are expecting admittedly sinful people to begin thinking like Christ?!? Come on, get real... first, who rules the world?

I'm speaking of mature Christians upholding Christ's teaching with their life if necessary. Most are nowhere near that level of discipleship.

 

[1689Dave]

What makes sense is defending yourself and your family. If that involves deadly tactics then so be it. I have no ambitions to be a martyr in this world or the next. But your sense of martyrdom is quite frankly bizarre. We’re you raised a Catholic?

It's a sin if you use violence to do so. Jesus taught against it and none practiced violent self-defense in the NT.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not smart. Christian values should be according to God's will. It was the Christian aka Baptist values which helped give us our religous freedom. Prior each State except Rhode Island had a State Church.

I was curious about your state commentary so I looked it up for New Jersey and yes they honored the Church of England then... but I also found this, In recent years, irreligion has been an increasing force in Jersey, with two fifths of the population identifying as having no religion. This number rises to 52% for Jersey people under 35.

So NJ is fast turning into a irreligious state.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's a sin if you use violence to do so. Jesus taught against it and none practiced violent self-defense in the NT.

So you are saying that Christ teaches non violence in leu of self preservation?!?

 

[1689Dave]

So you are saying that Christ teaches non violence in leu of self preservation?!?

Paul says it's better to die. How can you as a believer not think so. Do you love this world that much?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Paul says it's better to die. How can you as a believer not think so. Do you love this world that much?

I love my family and my life that much.

 

[1689Dave]

I love my family and my life that much.

But you are not placing Christ first the way Abraham did when he offered up Isaac. He demands you love him more than your own life and all it entails.

 

[kyredneck]

16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request. 1 Jn 5

IMO, the thief on the cross was a child of God that had sinned 'a sin unto death'. Sentence carried out by 'the powers that be', i.e., the Romans.

 

[canadyjd]

I love my family and my life that much.

Luke 9:24 “For whosoever shall save his life shall lose it. And whosoever loses his life for My sake, the same shall save it.”

Peace to you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But you are not placing Christ first the way Abraham did when he offered up Isaac. He demands you love him more than your own life and all it entails.

What did Isaac have to say about it? Anyway I’m not the father of the Jewish race and I wouldn’t apply for the job anyway.

 

[Dave G]

So David, I am glad you stepped in to clarify.

You're welcome.

Your statement involves A Roman Caesar I.e., an occupying military force with ruling authority over a conquered people... in this case again the Romans.

Yes, it does.
I also clearly see that it is the Lord who sets up kings, and takes them down ( Psalms 75:7, 1 Samuel 2:7, Daniel 2:21 ).

How they execute that office is then under His judgment and I am to leave that up to Him,
and we as believers, unless it specifically violates God's commandments, are to obey those who are in authority over us.

So to clarify, Paul is saying that you as a Jew must accept subjugation and the rule of law set up by the ruling authority over your own Torah written laws.

I'm not a Jew, but as a believer and as one of God's elect, I am bound to obey those that He has set in authority over me...

Just as I was when I was a member of the United States Navy and bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice some years ago, so am I also bound by the laws of whatever nation, county, city and township that I currently reside in.
I am to render to "Caesar" what it "Caesar's", and to God what is God's ( Matthew 22:21, Mark 12:16, Luke 20:20-25, Romans 13:7 ) and as much as lies within me, to be at peace with all men ( Romans 12:18 ).

I can well see how the Jewish Sanhedrin would be perplexed by Paul’s teaching.

I agree.
In fact, it angered the unbelieving Jews to no end to have the Romans occupying their land, and this occupation eventually led to the second temple being destroyed in 70 A.D. by the armies of General Titus and the fall of Jerusalem as a city.

But this is not our world, ours is the one to come.
We have no percentage in "fighting for our rights" ( neither do God's people have any business getting involved with the affairs of this life ( 2 Timothy 2:4 )), and we should be glad of whatever grace God sends our way.

In light of this, I see the Lord Jesus and His apostles teaching obedience to the law of the land, not rebellion against it.
If the death penalty exists in a nation, then it exists and I am bound to live in the light of that.
Do I agree with it?

Yes, I do, if that is what it takes to function as a deterrent against wickedness and violence.

 

[rlvaughn]

Other. The death penalty is a sin against God.

Jon, as I read through this thread, I think I noticed you make this kind of statement several times. Based on what Scripture do you assert that the death penalty is a sin against God? Thanks.

 

[Reynolds]

No. There are not new forms of witnesses. The testimony of believers (in Scripture, Israelites) is essential. It is a principle carried over into our redemption as well.

Two members of "God's people" have to testify.

The whole forensic thing is based on science that you have discounted anyway.

No. I have said science is mostly developed by fools and is often proven wrong. Once it has proven itself, I have no problem with it.

 

[JonC]

Jon, as I read through this thread, I think I noticed you make this kind of statement several times. Based on what Scripture do you assert that the death penalty is a sin against God? Thanks.

I believe it can be a "gray" area if it is administered as described in Scripture (not by a secular government but by God's people in accordance with God's Law). So I am not saying in a blanket statement it is sin.

But with the "death penalty" as practiced in the US it is sin. The US is not "God's people" unto whom the Law was given. The US dies nor administer the "death penalty" as described in Scripture (for murder, adultery, fornication, intentional crimes, etc.).

More than that, under the New Covenant we are to exile the wicked man (turn him over to Satan or the "World").

So to clarify, the death penalty is a sin but not to the world but to the Christian.

 

[JonC]

No. I have said science is mostly developed by fools and is often proven wrong. Once it has proven itself, I have no problem with it.

It takes a while for things to be proven - and often what is proven today is disproven tomorrow.

 

[rlvaughn]

But with the "death penalty" as practiced in the US it is sin. The US is not "God's people" unto whom the Law was given...So to clarify, the death penalty is a sin but not to the world but to the Christian.

You lost me there. You say the death penalty is not a sin to the world, but you also say that the U.S. (not God's people, therefore the world) is sinning when practicing the death penalty. It seems like you are contradicting yourself. I don't get your point.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not that I know of.

You are making some very strange connections.

I ask if you have a passage in mind about rape and you assume I believe rape is not a crime.

I provide Biblical guidance to "expel the wicked" from the Church and you ask if there is such a place today where there are no Christians.


I assume you do not have Murphy’s for breakfast....?

In speaking with you lot I could have a breakfast of champions and still feel disillusioned.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You lost me there. You say the death penalty is not a sin to the world, but you also say that the U.S. (not God's people, therefore the world) is sinning when practicing the death penalty. It seems like you are contradicting yourself. I don't get your point.

Be at ease, He probably doesn’t understand his own pretzel logic either.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ask the question as basic as you can, so I don't misunderstand it. I'll then answer.

Forget about it