The Pope’s Plans on Organizing Political, Economic, and Religious Activities Worldwid

[lori4dogs]

Read it all DHK and it sure sounds like urban legend to me. It's ficticious but it makes fun reading.

 

[Matt Black]

Oh, I don't know; if DHK wants to be the next Dan Brown, he's making a good start.

 

[Soulman]

This is no surprise. You can read all about it in the book of Revelation.

The Great Whore is alive and well, and going about that which has been pre-ordained.

Catholicisim is the mother of the charasmatic movement. Unity, Unity, Unity. She welcomes all protestants and other religions into her fold. Her aim I believe is to bring us into a one world religion that can then be handed over to a one world government to be controlled. Once this religion has served this purpose it will be discarded.(Short version)

 

[Matt Black]

Do you guys want fries with your Kool-Aid?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Do you guys want fries with your Kool-Aid?

Baked potato and veggies please. I am on a diet.

 

[Melanie]

Catholicisim is the mother of the charasmatic movement. Unity, Unity, Unity. She welcomes all protestants and other religions into her fold. Her aim I believe is to bring us into a one world religion that can then be handed over to a one world government to be controlled. Once this religion has served this purpose it will be discarded.(Short version)

oh dear me....where is my lye soap,,,,,IF there was ever world unity with the RCC accepting nations dedicating themselves to the Lord God, the world would be under the dominion of the Social Kingship of Jesus Christ...the religion of Jesus Christ will never be discarded even to the Second Coming...:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

oh dear me....where is my lye soap,,,,,IF there was ever world unity with the RCC accepting nations dedicating themselves to the Lord God, the world would be under the dominion of the Social Kingship of Jesus Christ...the religion of Jesus Christ will never be discarded even to the Second Coming...:godisgood:

There will be a one world church Briony. And no doubt the RCC will be the nucleus, with the pope at the head. If you read almost any Protestant commentary of the 19th century or earlier: Presbyterian, Baptist or otherwise, you will find that they will all agree with this one point,
that:

Revelation 17:4-6 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

refers to the RCC.
Many still do to this day. It is a very common view. And it is descriptive of a one world church that is to come. It is also descriptive of the RCC in the past.

 

[MrJim]

Catholicisim is the mother of the charasmatic movement. Unity, Unity, Unity. She welcomes all protestants and other religions into her fold. Her aim I believe is to bring us into a one world religion that can then be handed over to a one world government to be controlled. Once this religion has served this purpose it will be discarded.(Short version)

The conservative Catholics I've come across are not all about "unity"~~there are strict lines that won't be crossed. If they really were such a nefarious organization they'd be better off embracing a more liberal agenda like the American Episcopals..I don't even see the Catholic church ever uniting with the Eastern Orthodox because of their differences, which may seem petty to us baptist types, but are huge between them.

 

[lori4dogs]

There will be a one world church Briony. And no doubt the RCC will be the nucleus, with the pope at the head. If you read almost any Protestant commentary of the 19th century or earlier: Presbyterian, Baptist or otherwise, you will find that they will all agree with this one point,
that:

Revelation 17:4-6 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

refers to the RCC.
Many still do to this day. It is a very common view. And it is descriptive of a one world church that is to come. It is also descriptive of the RCC in the past.

I took a class which covered some of the 'proofs' that Dave Hunt gives in his book 'A Woman Rides the Beast' and here are some of the rebuffs:

In Hunt's book, he notes that the Whore will be a city "known as Babylon." This is based on Revelation 17:5, which says that her name is "Babylon the Great."

That phrase "Babylon the great" come up five times in Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, and 18:21). You get the drift of its meaning when you notice that Babylon is referred to as "the great city" seven times in the book (16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). Other that there is only one reference to "the great city." That passage is 11:8, which says that the bodies of God’s two witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."

"The great city" is symbolically called Sodom, a reference to Jerusalem, symbolically called "Sodom" in the Old Testament (cf. Is. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1–3, 46–56). We also know Jerusalem is the "the great city" of Revelation 11:8 because the verse says it was "where Jesus was crucified."

It is my understanding that Revelation speaks as if there were only one "great city", which would suggest that the great city of 11:8 is the same as the great city mentioned in the other seven texts—Babylon. Additional evidence for the identity of the two is the fact that both are symbolically named after great Old Testament enemies of the faith: Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.

I would say this seems to suggest that Babylon the great may be Jerusalem, not Rome.

Then Hunt says, "The woman is called a ‘whore’ in verse 1, with whom earthly kings ‘have committed fornication’ (verse 2). Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome."

Then he goes on to admit that the prophets often referred to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, which suggest that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Ancient, pagan Rome also fits the description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with "the kings of the earth", the conquered nations.

Then in order to identify the Whore as Vatican City, he then interprets the fornication as "unholy alliances" forged between Vatican City and other nations, but then he doesn't give any reasons why the Vatican’s diplomatic relations with other nations are "unholy."

He seems to confuse Vatican City with the city of Rome, and he forgets that pagan Rome had "unholy alliances" with the kingdoms it governed (unholy because they were built on paganism and emperor worship).

Hunt goes on stating "She, being the Whore is clothed in ‘purple and scarlet’ (verse 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy." He then quotes the Catholic Encyclopedia to show that bishops wear certain purple vestments and cardinals wear certain red vestments. He ignores the obvious symbolic meaning of these colors being purple for royalty and red for the blood of the martyrs.

Also, Catholic clergy wear other colored vestments as well and the predominant color is white. Priest wear white, the pope wears white, bishops and cardinals when they say mass wear white.

He also talks about the great wealth and regardless of what the Vatican once had, the Vatican of our day has been running a budget deficit for the past few year.

Pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem do fit the description of a city drunk with the blood of saints and the martyrs of Jesus. And since they were big time persecutors of Christians, the original audience would have automatically thought of one of these two as the city that persecutes Christians, not an undreamed-of Christian Rome that was centuries in the future.

 

[Melanie]

...ah the wealth of the RCC. It s wealthy because of the generosity of its congregations. Another thing....remember those who have become nuns,priests,brothers....do not draw a wage, something I think is often forgotten.The Pope is in all probability quite a poor man.

The colour of the priestly vestments changes with the liturgical calender....we are in Advent a time of fast and penance in preparation for the Feast of Christmas. Advent and Lent are coloured purple to represent suffering (?why I don't know) white for things like Christmas,Green for the sundays after Pentecost, red is for the martyrs,black for death, and sometimes depending on the parish there are two Sundays where Rose coloured vestments are worn (today being Gaudete Sunday) and once in Lent as a lessening of the penetental aspects of these seasons.

 

[lori4dogs]

...ah the wealth of the RCC. It s wealthy because of the generosity of its congregations. Another thing....remember those who have become nuns,priests,brothers....do not draw a wage, something I think is often forgotten.The Pope is in all probability quite a poor man.

The colour of the priestly vestments changes with the liturgical calender....we are in Advent a time of fast and penance in preparation for the Feast of Christmas. Advent and Lent are coloured purple to represent suffering (?why I don't know) white for things like Christmas,Green for the sundays after Pentecost, red is for the martyrs,black for death, and sometimes depending on the parish there are two Sundays where Rose coloured vestments are worn (today being Gaudete Sunday) and once in Lent as a lessening of the penetental aspects of these seasons.

For as much attention as Hunt gave in his book to Catholic clergy being 'arrayed in scarlet and purple' it is amusing for us who know that our clergy always wear white albs as their primary vestment at mass. It is only during Advent and Lent that a purple chausable is worn over the alb.

 

[lori4dogs]

. . . . and as far as the chausable goes, the primary color worn would be green since that is the longest period of the liturgical year.

 

[DHK]

I took a class which covered some of the 'proofs' that Dave Hunt gives in his book 'A Woman Rides the Beast' and here are some of the rebuffs:

I am impressed. an entire class which would be dedicated to refuting Hunt's Book, "A Woman Rides the Beast," when there are dozens books put out by various current others and many, many by 19th century commentaries who all believed the same thing. It certainly isn't new with Dave Hunt. Rather Dave Hunt is new. These interpretations of Scriptures have been around for a long, long time.

Here is Albert Barnes (1798-1870)

Revelation 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Verse 2. With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication. Spiritual adultery. The meaning is, that Papal Rome, unfaithful to God, and idolatrous and corrupt, had seduced the rulers of the earth, and led them into the same kind of unfaithfulness, idolatry, and corruption. Compare Jer 3:8-9; 5:7; 13:27; 23:14; Eze 16:32; 23:37; Ho 2:2; 4:2.
How true this is in history need not be stated. All the princes and kings of Europe in the dark ages and for many centuries were, and not a few of them are now, entirely under the influence of Papal Rome.

And the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. The alluring cup which as an harlot she had to said extended them. See this image explained in Cmt. on Re 14:8.
There it is that Babylon--referring to the same thing--had "made them drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication;" that is, of the cup that led to wrath or punishment. Here it is said that the harlot had made them "drunk with the wine of her fornication;" that is, they had been, as it were, intoxicated by the alluring cup held out to them. What could better describe the influence of Rome on the people of the world, in making them, under these delusions, incapable of sober judgment, and in completely fascinating and controlling all their powers?

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Verse 3. So he carried me away in the spirit. In vision. He seemed to himself to be thus carried away; or the scene which he is about to describe was made to pass before him as if he were present.

Into the wilderness. Into a desert. Compare Cmt. on Re 12:6. Why this scene is laid in a wilderness or desert is not mentioned. Prof. Stuart supposes that it is because it is "appropriate to symbolize the future condition of the beast." So De Wette and Rosenmuller. The imagery is changed somewhat from the first appearance of the harlot in Re 17:1. There she is represented as "sitting upon many waters." Now she is represented as "riding on a beast," and, of course, the imagery is adapted to that.

Possibly there may have been no intentional significancy in this; but on the supposition, as the interpretation has led us to believe all along, that this refers to Papal Rome, may not the propriety of this be seen in the condition of Rome and the adjacent country, at the rise of the Papal power? That had its rise (Cmt. on Da 7:25 seq.) after the decline of the Roman civil power, and properly in the time of Clovis, Pepin, or Charlemagne. Perhaps its first visible appearance as a power that was to influence the destiny of the world, was in the time of Gregory the Great, A. D. 590-605. On the supposition that the passage before us refers to the period when the Papal power became thus marked and defined, the state of Rome at this time, as described by Mr. Gibbon, would show with what propriety the term wilderness or desert might be then applied to it. The following extract from this author, in describing the state of Rome at the accession of Gregory the Great, has almost the appearance of being a designed commentary on this passage, or is, at any rate, such as a partial interpreter of this book would desire and expect to find. Speaking of that period, he says, (Decline and Fall, iii. 207-211) "Rome had reached, about the close of the sixth century, the lowest period of her depression. By the removal of the seat of empire, and the successive loss of the province, the sources of private and public opulence were exhausted; the lofty tree under whose shade the nations of the earth had reposed was deprived of its leaves and branches, and the sapless trunk left to wither on the ground. The ministers of command and the messengers of victory no longer met on the Appian or Flaminian way; and the hostile approach of the Lombards was often felt and continually feared. The inhabitants of a potent and peaceful capital, who visit without an anxious thought the garden of the adjacent country, will faintly picture in their fancy the distress of the Romans; they shut or opened their gates with a trembling hand, beheld from the walls the flames of their houses, and heard the lamentations of their brethren who were coupled together like dogs, and dragged away into distant slavery beyond the sea and the mountains. Such incessant alarms must annihilate the pleasures, and interrupt the labours of rural life; and the Campagna of Rome was speedily reduced to the state of a dreary WILDERNESS, in which the land is barren, the waters are impure, and the air infectious.
Curiosity and ambition no longer attracted the nations to the capital of the world; but if chance or necessity directed the steps of a wandering stranger, he contemplated with horror the vacancy and solitude of the city; and might be tempted to ask, where is the Senate, and where are the people?

In a season of excessive rains, the Tiber swelled above its banks, and rushed with irresistible violence into the valleys of the seven hills. A pestilential disease arose from the stagnation of the deluge, and so rapid was the contagion that fourscore persons expired in an hour in the midst of a solemn procession which implored the mercy of heaven. A society in which marriage is encouraged, and industry prevails, soon repairs the accidental losses of pestilence and war; but as the far greater part of the Romans was condemned to hopeless indigence and celibacy, the depopulation was constant and visible, and the gloomy enthusiasts might expect the approaching failure of the human race. Yet the number of citizens still exceeded the measure of subsistence; their precarious food was supplied from the harvests of Sicily and Egypt; and the frequent repetition of famine betrays the inattention of the emperor to a distant province.

The edifices of Rome were exposed to the same ruin and decay; the mouldering fabrics were easily overthrown by inundations, tempests, and earthquakes; and the monks who had occupied the most advantageous stations exulted in their base triumph over the ruins of antiquity.

"Like Thebes, or Babylon, or Carthage, the name of Rome might have been erased from the earth, if the city had not been animated by a vital principle which again restored her to honour and dominion. The power as well as the virtue of the apostles revived with living energy in the breasts of their successors; and the chair of St. Peter under the reign of Maurice, was occupied by the first and greatest of the name of Gregory. The sword of the enemy was suspended over Rome; it was averted by the mud eloquence and seasonable gifts of the Pontiff, who commanded the respect of heretics and barbarians." Compare Re 13:3,12-15.
On the supposition now that the inspired author of the Apocalypse had Rome in that state when the civil power, declined and the Papacy arose in his eye, what more expressive imagery could he have used to denote it than he has employed" On the supposition--if such a supposition could be made--that Mr. Gibbon meant to furnish a commentary on this passage, what more appropriate language could he have used? Does not this language look as if the author of the Apocalypse and the author of the "Decline and Fall" meant to play into each other's hands?

And in further confirmation of this, I may refer to the testimony of two Roman Catholic writers, giving the same view of Rome, and showing that, in their apprehension also, it was only by the reviving influence of the Papacy that Rome was saved from becoming a total waste. They are both of the middle ages. The first is Augustine Steuchus, who thus writes: "The empire having been overthrown, unless God had raised up the Pontificate, Rome, resuscitated and restored by none, would have become uninhabitable, and been a most foul habitation thenceforward of cattle. But in the Pontificate it revived as with a second birth; its empire in magnitude, not indeed equal to the old empire, but its form not very dissimilar: because all nations, from East and from West, venerate the Pope, not otherwise than they before obeyed the Emperors." The other is Flavio Blondas: "The princes of the world now adore and worship as Perpetual Dictator the successor not of Caesar but of the Fisherman Peter; that is, the Supreme Pontiff, the substitute of the aforesaid Emperor." See the original in Elliott, iii. 113.

 

[DHK]

And I saw a woman. Evidently the same which is referred to in Re 17:1.

Sit upon a scarlet-coloured beast. That is, either the beast was itself naturally of this colour, or it was covered with trappings of this colour. The word scarlet properly denotes a bright red colour-- brighter than crimson, which is a red colour tinged with blue. Cmt. on Isa 1:18. The word here used--kokkinon--occurs in the New Testament only in the following places: Mt 27:28; Heb 9:19; Re 17:3-4; 18:12,16, in all which places it is rendered scarlet. Cmt. on Mt 27:28; Cmt. on Heb 9:19.

The colour was obtained from a small insect which was found adhering to the, shoots of a species of oak in Spain and Western Asia. This was the usual colour in the robes of princes, military cloaks, etc. It is applicable in the description of Papal Rome, because this is a favourite colour there. Thus it is used in Re 12:3, where the same power is represented under the image of a "red dragon." Cmt. on Re 12:3.
It is remarkable that nothing would better represent the favourite colour at Rome than this, or the actual appearance of the pope, the cardinals, and the priests in their robes, on some great festival occasion.

Those who are familiar with the descriptions given of Papal Rome by travellers, and those who have passed much time in Rome, will see at once the propriety of this description, on the supposition that it was intended to refer to the Papacy. I caused this inquiry to be made of an intelligent gentleman who had passed much time in Rome--without his knowing my design--what would strike a stranger on visiting Rome, or what would be likely particularly to arrest his attention as remarkable there; and he unhesitatingly replied, "the scarlet colour." This is the colour of the dress of the cardinals--their hats, and cloaks, and stockings being always of this colour. It is the colour of the carriages of the cardinals, the entire body of the carriage being scarlet, and the trappings of the horses the same. On occasion of public festivals and processions, scarlet is suspended from the windows of the houses along which processions pass.

The inner colour of the cloak of the pope is scarlet; his carriage is scarlet; the carpet on which he treads is scarlet. A large part of the dress of the body-guard of the pope is scarlet; and no one can take up a picture of Rome without seeing that this colour is predominant. I looked through a volume of engravings representing the principal officers and public persons of Rome. There were few in which the scarlet colour was not found as constituting some part of their apparel; in not a few the scarlet colour prevailed almost entirely.

And in illustration of the same thought, I introduce here an extract from a foreign newspaper, copied into an American newspaper of Feb. 22, 1851, as an illustration of the fact that the scarlet colour is characteristic of Rome, and of the readiness with which it is referred to in that respect: "Curious Costumes.--The three new cardinals, the archbishops of Thoulouse, Rheims, and Besancon, were presented to the President of the French Republic by the Pope's Nuncio. They wore red caps, red stockings, black Roman coats lined and bound with red, and small cloaks." I conclude, therefore, that if it be admitted that it was intended to represent Papal Rome in the vision, the precise description would have been adopted which is found here.

Full of names of blasphemy. All covered over with blasphemous titles and names. What could more accurately describe Papal Rome than this? Compare for some of these names and titles, Cmt. on 2Th 2:4; Cmt. on 1Ti 4:1, seq. Cmt. on Re 13:1, Cmt. on Re 13:5.

Hunt is not the only ones with such ideas.

 

[lori4dogs]

Actually, the class was not to de-bunk Hunt's book but we did cover some of the more recent anti-Catholic publications.

But:

'The inner colour of the cloak of the pope is scarlet; his carriage is scarlet; the carpet on which he treads is scarlet. A large part of the dress of the body-guard of the pope is scarlet; and no one can take up a picture of Rome without seeing that this colour is predominant.'

The lining on a garment he wears is scarlet??? Even if that were true, I don't think it is true of the present pope or John-Paul II. This is really reaching for something not there. It is absurd.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Actually, the class was not to de-bunk Hunt's book but we did cover some of the more recent anti-Catholic publications.

But:

'The inner colour of the cloak of the pope is scarlet; his carriage is scarlet; the carpet on which he treads is scarlet. A large part of the dress of the body-guard of the pope is scarlet; and no one can take up a picture of Rome without seeing that this colour is predominant.'

The lining on a garment he wears is scarlet??? Even if that were true, I don't think it is true of the present pope or John-Paul II. This is really reaching for something not there. It is absurd.

Is this your pope?

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/pope_benedict_xvi.jpg

Is this?
http://www.topnews.in/files/PopeBenedictXVI_3.jpg

What about this guy...
http://uptownandreabrown.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/pope_benedict_xvi_regalia.jpg

This dude
http://www.topnews.in/usa/files/Pope Benedict XVI.jpg

Certainly he doesn't always wear it, but he does..

 

[lori4dogs]

I can bring up plenty of vestments of other colors as well he also wears. He wears green, purple, red, white . . . . but you hone in on one color.

BTW, what color is the alb that he always wears?

 

[rbell]

I can bring up plenty of vestments of other colors as well he also wears. He wears green, purple, red, white . . . . but you hone in on one color.

BTW, what color is the alb that he always wears?

My guess is white...since the only word I know containing "alb" is "albino."

But then again...I got a C plus in Popeology. (or is it popeology? Popiatry? Popiatrics? Popitarianism? Popapailianism? Pope on a rope?)

 

[lori4dogs]

How about this:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/05/14/Pope-Benedict-celebrates-mass-in-Nazareth/UPI-23771242305178/

Any problem with these vestments?

 

[DHK]

I can bring up plenty of vestments of other colors as well he also wears. He wears green, purple, red, white . . . . but you hone in on one color.

BTW, what color is the alb that he always wears?

What is the color that he wears the most while he sits on his "throne" in the Vatican? When he entertains foreign dignitaries?

These old commentators knew what they were talking about. Some of them came out of Catholicism like the Reformers. Read Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, and others of that century. And they all with one accord agree with Dave Hunt. Were they prophets? Or is Dave Hunt simply expounding the Scriptures as he sees it, and in agreement with what has been taught throughout the ages?