I respectfully disagree. I would say it is the other way around. But we will not change each others view on this ... I am quite sure of that.
I agree with this statement, but most likely with a different take on how this is played out.
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The potter and the clay.
- Thread starter percho
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I respectfully disagree. I would say it is the other way around. But we will not change each others view on this ... I am quite sure of that.
I agree with this statement, but most likely with a different take on how this is played out.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
That is the problem. You are not the arbiter. It doesn't matter how God is viewed to you. God is concerned with his glory.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
You are a joy to disagree with. You are not disagreeable.
I would simply challenge you to the following: do you ever see sovereignty in Scripture where he has authority and control but doesn't use it? Does he "can, may, and will" or is it always "will" in Scripture. Prov. 16 is a good place to start. I think you will find that Scripture is consistent... God has AND USES his absolute authority. That is the norm as I see it.
No promises, but I will look into the book you recommended.
You see the article I suggested for Rom. 9 to compare w/ Schreiner?
I respectfully disagree. I believe God is concerned about the welfare of his creation.
To say that 'God is concerned about his glory' makes God sound very self-centered and selfish. I do not believe God is either.
I agree, Calvinism makes God to appear absolutely selfish and self-centered, which everybody knows is not good. This simply goes right over Calvinists heads.
To them God is just the Big Boss, and I don't know anybody that loves a person like that.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I have not yet, but I do hope to look into that comparison. I have SO MANY irons in the fire, particularly professionally, which consume so much energy and time.
GT, you are sinking a cannard here. Evidences of God displaying his sovereignty and will in the lives of certain people, in redemptive history, does not serve to mean that is how he applies his sovereignty throughout us....you and me. We were not called to lead a band of complaining former slaves in the desert for 40 years.....that fell on the shoulders of Moses. (Not the norm for most believers). No one questions the complete and utter authority of God, rather we "non-cals" see God glorified through the freedom granted us. The conundrum is, omniscience vs. decree. What must also be included in the discussion is the asiety of God. Yes, we and all of creation were formed to bring glory to our creator, that avenue bears much discussion, which I don't feel to qualified to contribute much.
I love and respect you as a fellow believer.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
You mean God should be more for us than for himself??? He should place stock in something less valuable than himself??? That would make God an idolater.
God being for himself is the greatest act of love he could bestow upon us. More on this later. I have to run.
Are you saying that God worships himself?
That is a total misunderstanding of love, agape. God is love and the type of love used in that verse is agape. You are saying his love is a selfish self-love. That is completely incorrect. Not only are Calvinist making God into a monster, but also a selfish monster with such beliefs.
I suggest you read C.S. Lewis' "The Four Loves".
From Wikipedia ....
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
I'll give you a biblical example: Ps 23. Why does God do all that stuff for us? "For his name sake"!!! God is motivated by his own glory. This has been understood for ages. It was best expressed like America's greatest thinker and theologian, Jonathan Edwards.
This is a good video that will help explain a lot, if you are willing to learn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNCk3sJQEg
a longer version is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qFdMCR9Sks
convicted1
Guest
Greektim
Well-Known Member
LOL... you made me double check what I wrote to be sure I wasn't a jerk. It is my inclination.Brother GT, I expected better of you than this.
Cut n paste is fun!j/k
quantumfaith
Active Member
GT, I just want to be clear, because I am a little bit "lost" in the discussion. Are you arguing in favor of hard determinism?
Johathan Edwards was a great preacher for his time and place. I'd not put him in the top of the pile on theologians however.
Ps. 23 ... I see nothing in Psalm 23 where it says God does this for his own glory. In fact it supports my contention. God is doing all this for David not for Himself.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
You didn't see the part I put into quotations marks? "For his name's sake." That phrase refers to all the phrases before it. Why is YHWH our shepherd? Why shall I not want? Why does he lay me down in green pastures? Why... for his name's sake.
Let's ask it this way: why are we created? Isa. 43:7, "Isa 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
I tell you what, though, this has derailed the subject of this thread. I think this would make a good thread all of its own. I may start it tomorrow.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I am still a compatablist. But I also have no problem saying that God has ordained everything... EVERYTHING.
quantumfaith
Active Member
And I am in no way saying that this "ordaining" is beyond His means to do so.
Good grief, I get tired of this mindless adherence to nonsense!!
If Judas had no choice it means that God is a liar. For a person to be born for the purpose of a single evil act and to be condemned to eternal torment would be cruel beyond imagining and our God is opposite to cruel. That isn't the God I know, it isn't the God of the Bible, and I really wish the people who tout this nonsense would give God credit for being bigger than the box they've stuffed him in.
We are born to a life of choices, to millions of possibilities and God sees every single one of them for every single human being living today, and throughout history, both past and future. It boggles the mind to realize how many outcomes today could have depending on who makes what decisions, but what is truly amazing is that God has laid down his plans for every one of them. Nothing surprises God.
In the case of Judas we hold to the understanding that he made a choice. He entertained Satan himself.
Luke 22, NASBIs Satan sovereign? Can he force his way into an unwilling sinner? NO!!!! And neither does God create a man for a single, solitary act of evil. Your question is obscene!
3 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.
4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them.
It was his choice born out of whatever motivation pushed him in that direction, probably greed, for we know he stole from the till, and as a Zealot (he shows every sign of being one) was likely a nefarious type for most of his adult life. Only one thing was certain in those days and that was the cross to which Jesus was heading. The cross was certain but the path to it did not need to include Judas' betrayal. It could have been anyone or it could have been in a different manner but it did not have to be Judas.
Matthew 26The cross was a definite but Jesus also knew that Judas had made his decision, that he had already taken action. Jesus knew and He also knew what the outcome would be. This was not a curse! It is a simple statement of fact. Jesus knew the condition of Judas' heart, He knew the actions he had already taken and He knew the despair that would destroy him. Some may question why he did not make a final plea with Judas, but that is the same as asking why God doesn't prevent us from doing wrong.
24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
Judas had spent three years with Jesus, watching, listening, learning and participating. If he did not understand after three years of attending the world's first seminary, how would any plea from Jesus change things then? God has given His all to us. He speaks to us in everything around us. He speaks clearly through His Word. We are possessed by the Spirit who teaches us. While Judas was possessed of the Holy Spirit, He saw the actions, he heard the words of Christ. Other than the Holy Spirit, there is no greater instrument of conviction available than what Jesus provided His disciples, including Judas.
Judas should not be viewed as a "vessel of wrath" created to obatin God's plan. He had a choice and he made his choice. God simply did what He always does. He used what the dark powers intend as bad to bring about good. The truly sad thing about Judas, the thing for which we can have pity, is that he removed the possibility of repentance and restoration by giving into his despair and ending his life. Jesus knew the outcome for Judas because He could see the condition of Judas' hardened heart. That did not have to be his outcome, and it does not have to be our outcome.
Who has put God in a box? Not I.
Did not Peter entertain Satan?
Is the sin of Judas any greater than the sin of king David?
Can the blood of Jesus cover the sin of all three?
You are the one putting God in a box.
God can or will save only those who will do/believe/choose certain things according to you.
God will save according to his will.
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70,71
Jesus knew this from the beginning. He did not choose Judas hoping Judas would change. He wasn't giving him chances to repent. He was chosen vessel of God for purpose.
Paul was as guilty as the ones who threw stones at Stephen. Paul wasn't sadden about that. He wasn't repentant about it. He was on his way to find more to put in prison and or stone. But from before he was born he was a vessel of God. God through his Son, Jesus of Nazareth, resurrected from the dead was going to take the unbeliever Paul and change him to a believer for purpose.
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70,71
Jesus knew this from the beginning. He did not choose Judas hoping Judas would change. He wasn't giving him chances to repent. He was chosen vessel of God for purpose.
Paul was as guilty as the ones who threw stones at Stephen. Paul wasn't sadden about that. He wasn't repentant about it. He was on his way to find more to put in prison and or stone. But from before he was born he was a vessel of God. God through his Son, Jesus of Nazareth, resurrected from the dead was going to take the unbeliever Paul and change him to a believer for purpose.
You do not even understand the scripture you are quoting. The reason the disciples were amazed is because people believed being wealthy was a sign that a man was in God's favor. Likewise, when a man was poor or sick like Lazarus who laid at the rich man's gate, they believed this was evidence that this person was very sinful and under God's wrath.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
As you see, the disciples were amazed because Jesus told them very few rich men would enter heaven. This was the exact opposite to what they had always been taught and believed.
So you are absolutely misusing this scripture, it does not mean what you think it means at all. Men have choice, Peter exclaimed how they had forsaken all to follow Jesus, and Jesus tells them they will sit on twelve thrones.
This scripture is not teaching Unconditional Election whatsoever, just he opposite.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Nailed down, chained up, and padlocked, yes you have. You insist on describing Him as a Calvinist. That's a very tight box, and utterly fails to consider His full nature and character.
Nope. Satan wanted him to, but Jesus warned him, strengthened him, and prayed for his perseverance.
Given that Satan actually entered into Judas (Luke 22:3), Judas' sin is among the worst in the Bible, as he literally opened himself up to the nature and character of God's enemy. Very few did that. None lived.
Absolutely.
Logical fallacy. Straw man. Invalid.
Nope. Never said. that. Logical fallacy. False restatement of the argument. Invalid.
But not against the will of the one He would save.
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.[/QUOTE]