The practicality of theological views...

[Skandelon]

In another thread Luke made these comments:

Originally Posted by Luke2427
...This is because, when it comes to matters that have to do with the glory of God and the eternal souls of men, proclaiming things and arguing for things that you don't understand is EXTREMELY dangerous- to oneself and the ones who he might influence.

This is not a game. This is not something to be handled lightly. This is not an innocent exercise or a source of harmless fellowship. This is not a harmless pass time. People read this forum. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong and on many of the things we discuss there hang eternal consequences.

...If someone is promoting a view point that dims the glory of God, that endangers the souls of men,

Luke, I'm not pointing out these points to be contentious, but I honestly want to understand how a consistent Calvinist believes that those who post in ignorance may have "eternal consequences," "endanger the souls of men," and be "extremely dangerous?"

Is not the sovereign plan of God being fulfilled to not only save all He has appointed to salvation, but also every detail and intention of man? In other words, what is happening here that (1) God hasn't ordained to occur and (2) that could possibly negatively effect the eternal soul of any individual?

I ask this because you appear to be suggesting that someone's error on this forum could somehow affect whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell. It that what you are saying? If not, what do these quotes mean?

...I understand the idea of end/means in regard to the need for evangelism within the Calvinistic system, but here we are talking about the potential of false teaching affecting the souls of man and eternity. How does that apply in this case?

Are you saying God may ordain the means of me typing an error on this forum to condemn an individual to an eternal hell?

I'm a practical theologian as my degree was in 'applied theology,' so forgive me for trying to see how theoretical concepts actually play out in the real world. Please expound. Thanks

 

[Luke2427]

In another thread Luke made these comments:

Luke, I'm not pointing out these points to be contentious, but I honestly want to understand how a consistent Calvinist believes that those who post in ignorance may have "eternal consequences," "endanger the souls of men," and be "extremely dangerous?"

Is not the sovereign plan of God being fulfilled to not only save all He has appointed to salvation, but also every detail and intention of man? In other words, what is happening here that (1) God hasn't ordained to occur and (2) that could possibly negatively effect the eternal soul of any individual?

I ask this because you appear to be suggesting that someone's error on this forum could somehow affect whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell. It that what you are saying? If not, what do these quotes mean?

...I understand the idea of end/means in regard to the need for evangelism within the Calvinistic system, but here we are talking about the potential of false teaching affecting the souls of man and eternity. How does that apply in this case?

Are you saying God may ordain the means of me typing an error on this forum to condemn an individual to an eternal hell?

I'm a practical theologian as my degree was in 'applied theology,' so forgive me for trying to see how theoretical concepts actually play out in the real world. Please expound. Thanks

Certainly. There is nothing that ever happens that has not been ordained by God.

But I am as oblivious as you are as to how all of that works.

What I know, which I suspect is all we are supposed to know on this matter this side of eternity, is that we creatures make real decisions which bear real consequences of which we are fully held accountable to God.

That is all I know, because to the best of my current experience and study, that is all God has revealed to us about his Sovereignty as to how it relates to our responsibility.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Certainly. There is nothing that ever happens that has not been ordained by God.

But I am as oblivious as you are as to how all of that works.

What I know, which I suspect is all we are supposed to know on this matter this side of eternity, is that we creatures make real decisions which bear real consequences of which we are fully held accountable to God.

That is all I know, because to the best of my current experience and study, that is all God has revealed to us about his Sovereignty as to how it relates to our responsibility.

Wait a second, you are saying that God ordains everything that happens before it happens, which in essence makes it His will.

So, when I commit an awful sin, I did it because it was God's will for me to do it and He even ordained that I should do it.

But then you say he is going to hold me accountable and bear consequences?

That's like me telling my 6 year old to hit the little girl next door with a rock, and then punishing him for doing it.

John

 

[matt wade]

There is nothing that ever happens that has not been ordained by God.

Yes, every post of mine on this forum has been ordained by God. So, please stop worrying yourself sick on whether I am educated enough to post here. It's God's will that I post here.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, every post of mine on this forum has been ordained by God. So, please stop worrying yourself sick on whether I am educated enough to post here. It's God's will that I post here.

Yes but you are responsible for what you do and I am responsible for whether or not I resist you when you do what you do on here.

 

[matt wade]

Yes but you are responsible for what you do and I am responsible for whether or not I resist you when you do what you do on here.

Yes, I am a robot programmed by God who will be punished for the programming I never asked for. What supreme justice.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wait a second, you are saying that God ordains everything that happens before it happens, which in essence makes it His will.

So, when I commit an awful sin, I did it because it was God's will for me to do it and He even ordained that I should do it.

But then you say he is going to hold me accountable and bear consequences?

That's like me telling my 6 year old to hit the little girl next door with a rock, and then punishing him for doing it.

John

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

.........................

 

[DHK]

.........................

Iconoclast,
Creeds and confessions are just as fallible as the sinners that wrote them.

 

[Robert Snow]

Yes, every post of mine on this forum has been ordained by God. So, please stop worrying yourself sick on whether I am educated enough to post here. It's God's will that I post here.

Since what we post here is ordained of God, according to Luke2427, does that mean that when he resists our posting, he is resisting God Himself? :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Certainly. There is nothing that ever happens that has not been ordained by God.

So, let me restate what you are agreeing to. God ordained for some here to write in ignorance thus leading some astray to an eternal hell?

This is why you say that some's behavior here is "dangerous" and can affect the eternal souls of man, right?

But I am as oblivious as you are as to how all of that works.

And yet you speak about it as if you are so certain.

What I know, which I suspect is all we are supposed to know on this matter this side of eternity, is that we creatures make real decisions which bear real consequences of which we are fully held accountable to God.

You do realize that MOST human beings would NEVER consider your version of "real choice" as being a real choice, right? The only one making choices in your system is God, we are merely carrying out what He has chosen to happen.

That is all I know, because to the best of my current experience and study, that is all God has revealed to us about his Sovereignty as to how it relates to our responsibility.

If this is true, then may I suggest you stop teaching things like...

"Satan did it- but so did God." - Luke
("it" was in reference to 'evil')

"The Scripture is clear. God is DOING these things. But God is not evil in doing them because his motive is pure and right."
-Luke

"God willed the most horrible sin of all time"- Luke

"God willed for evil" -Luke

When I interjected to clarify, I asked if you really meant God permitted or allowed evil. And you replied saying...

"The word "allow" and the IDEA of allowance is not in the text ANYWHERE." -Luke

"God does not just allow these things" -Luke

So, apparently you don't know HOW God ordains evil, but YOU DO KNOW He does it and doesn't merely allow it.... interesting...

 

[convicted1]

iconoclast,
creeds and confessions are just as fallible as the sinners that wrote them.

bingo!!!!!!!

 

[convicted1]

Phillippians 4:13:


If we take this too far, we can rape, murder, molest, rob, steal, do drugs, fornicate, lie, beat people up, and do this THROUGH Christ, and it strengthens us.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In another thread Luke made these comments:

Luke, I'm not pointing out these points to be contentious, but I honestly want to understand how a consistent Calvinist believes that those who post in ignorance may have "eternal consequences," "endanger the souls of men," and be "extremely dangerous?"

Is not the sovereign plan of God being fulfilled to not only save all He has appointed to salvation, but also every detail and intention of man? In other words, what is happening here that (1) God hasn't ordained to occur and (2) that could possibly negatively effect the eternal soul of any individual?

I ask this because you appear to be suggesting that someone's error on this forum could somehow affect whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell. It that what you are saying? If not, what do these quotes mean?

...I understand the idea of end/means in regard to the need for evangelism within the Calvinistic system, but here we are talking about the potential of false teaching affecting the souls of man and eternity. How does that apply in this case?

Are you saying God may ordain the means of me typing an error on this forum to condemn an individual to an eternal hell?

I'm a practical theologian as my degree was in 'applied theology,' so forgive me for trying to see how theoretical concepts actually play out in the real world. Please expound. Thanks

'"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways" Says the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts"' (Isaiah 55:8-9).
'Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out' (Rom 11:33).

That God has ordained all things that come to pass is a blessed and wonderful truth. If it is not so, then He is not all-powerful. Perhaps instead of God ordaining you to write nonsense on the BB, He is looking down and saying, "Oh no! Skandelon's writing nonsense again, and I'm just....not...powerful....enough to stop him!." That's not the God I worship.

If I am diagnosed with terminal cancer next week, I think I could accept it if I know that it comes from the hand of an almighty, loving God; but if God was thinking to Himself, "Oh how I wish Steve didn't have to get cancer, but I can't prevent it" what sort of God is that? Maybe He'll think to Himself, "Oh how I wish I could get Steve into heaven, but it's just too hard for Me! His sins are too many for Me to forgive and Satan is just too strong!"

Why does God allow things that He could stop? I don't know, but maybe He allows you to write all the tripe you do to show His great mercy. "Welcome to heaven, Skan. All the nonsense you wrote on the B.B. is forgiven you for the sake of My Son whom you trusted for salvation; and by My almighty power, I ensured that it didn't prevent any of my elect from coming here too." Ah! Happy endings! Don't you love 'em?" :godisgood:

Steve

 

[webdog]

That God has ordained all things that come to pass is a blessed and wonderful truth. If it is not so, then He is not all-powerful. Perhaps instead of God ordaining you to write nonsense on the BB, He is looking down and saying, "Oh no! Skandelon's writing nonsense again, and I'm just....not...powerful....enough to stop him!." That's not the God I worship.

So the God you serve decrees people write nonsense about Him? Praise God that's not the God I serve.

If I am diagnosed with terminal cancer next week, I think I could accept it if I know that it comes from the hand of an almighty, loving God; but if God was thinking to Himself, "Oh how I wish Steve didn't have to get cancer, but I can't prevent it" what sort of God is that? Maybe He'll think to Himself, "Oh how I wish I could get Steve into heaven, but it's just too hard for Me! His sins are too many for Me to forgive and Satan is just too strong!"

Nobody here is advocating open theism so you can stop with the nonsense.

Why does God allow things that He could stop? I don't know, but maybe He allows you to write all the tripe you do to show His great mercy. "Welcome to heaven, Skan. All the nonsense you wrote on the B.B. is forgiven you for the sake of My Son whom you trusted for salvation; and by My almighty power, I ensured that it didn't prevent any of my elect from coming here too." Ah! Happy endings! Don't you love 'em?"

Is it allowed...or ordained as you said above?

 

[preacher4truth]

bingo!!!!!!!

Unfortunately DHK used a broad brush and generalizations to dismiss this, without addressing reason, Scriptures nor giving a sound rebuttal against these statements specifically.

 

[ituttut]

Phillippians 4:13:


If we take this too far, we can rape, murder, molest, rob, steal, do drugs, fornicate, lie, beat people up, and do this THROUGH Christ, and it strengthens us.

Would say it is impossible to do such Through Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

So the God you serve decrees people write nonsense about Him? Praise God that's not the God I serve.
Nobody here is advocating open theism so you can stop with the nonsense.
Is it allowed...or ordained as you said above?

:applause:

I still don't know how some interpret God's ability to stop sin with His determination of it. I guess since I knew my children would sin before deciding to have children means I determined them to sin?

 

[Skandelon]

Why does God allow things that He could stop? I don't know, but maybe He allows you to write all the tripe you do to show His great mercy. "Welcome to heaven, Skan. All the nonsense you wrote on the B.B. is forgiven you for the sake of My Son whom you trusted for salvation; and by My almighty power, I ensured that it didn't prevent any of my elect from coming here too." Ah! Happy endings! Don't you love 'em?" :godisgood:

Steve

But according to your earlier implications regarding cancer coming by the hand of God, doesn't it reason that my so-called "tripe" also comes from His hand? You see, you have yet to acknowledge the distinction of God's active decretive will and his permissive will. You appear to see them all as one in the same.

 

[percho]

Wait a second, you are saying that God ordains everything that happens before it happens, which in essence makes it His will.

So, when I commit an awful sin, I did it because it was God's will for me to do it and He even ordained that I should do it.

But then you say he is going to hold me accountable and bear consequences?

That's like me telling my 6 year old to hit the little girl next door with a rock, and then punishing him for doing it.

John

What if you ordain for your to kid to make decisions yet you tell him it is against your will for him to hit the girl next door with a rock.

 

[webdog]

What if you ordain for your to kid to make decisions yet you tell him it is against your will for him to hit the girl next door with a rock.

You mean free will?