The Pre Mil Position

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Would we have any takers that feel confident enough to establish for the list what they see as the PM position, if in fact there is basic agreement among those believing in PM, i.e., enough for a basic outline? It does not have to be in great detail, just the basic outline of the end times as seen from a PM position. Subsequently we can debate the differing aspects of it and see if there is any agreement or enlightenment to be achieved.

 

[LeBuick]

Would we have any takers that feel confident enough to establish for the list what they see as the PM position, if in fact there is basic agreement among those believing in PM, i.e., enough for a basic outline? It does not have to be in great detail, just the basic outline of the end times as seen from a PM position. Subsequently we can debate the differing aspects of it and see if there is any agreement or enlightenment to be achieved.

One member posted this link http://www.biblicist.org/bible/premil.shtml

I personally believe in the thousand year reign according to Rev 20:4-6 but my question is who is Israel? Some thinks it's anyone born from the seed or bloodline of Abraham but I have huge disagreements with that view.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks LeBuick. What are some key points of belief for one that claims to be PM? For instance, are all PMer’s also PTer’s? (pre-tribulational rapture)

 

[LeBuick]

Thanks LeBuick. What are some key points of belief for one that claims to be PM? For instance, are all PMer’s also PTer’s? (pre-tribulational rapture)

I can only speak for me, I am pre-trib... But then I also believe the Church will reign with the saved portion of Israel in that thousand years...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That seems to jive with this verse...

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Marcia]

Thanks LeBuick. What are some key points of belief for one that claims to be PM? For instance, are all PMer’s also PTer’s? (pre-tribulational rapture)

PM is the belief that Jesus will come before establishing a thousand year reign before the last day. I think Amils believe (any Amils out there, please correct this if I'm wrong) that the 1,000 yrs. represents the time of the church and is going on now, and the figure of 1,000 yrs. is representative or metaphorical, not literal. Jesus will come back and that will be the end.

No, not all PMers are PTers. Some are Mid-Trib and some are Post-Trib and some do not believe in the rapture. I'm not that familiar with the details of all the views yet, so maybe others with these views can post.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Jesus will come back and that will be the end.

HP: Thanks for your help. I believe Matt 24 presents the end times as quoting you above. It seems that once he ratures the believers the end is indeed at hand. 'as in the days of Noah.' etc.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

There are really two premil views: Historic Premil and Dispensational Premil. Hope this helps.

Dispensational Premillennialism ---
Dispensationalists argue for the literal interpretation of all of the prophetic portions of Scripture. This means that all promises made to David and Abraham under the Old Covenant are to be literally fulfilled in the future millennial age. Dispensationalists insist that God has two redemptive plans, one for national Israel, and one for Gentiles during the "church age."

The church age is to be seen as that period of time in which God is dealing with Gentiles prior to the coming of the kingdom of God during the millennium. Jesus came to earth bringing with him an "offer" of the kingdom to the Jews, who rejected him. God then turned to dealing with the Gentiles -- thus, the church age is a parenthesis of sorts.

The Biblical data dealing with the time of tribulation is referring to unbelieving Israel, not the church. Therefore, the visible and physical second coming of Christ occurs after the great tribulation. Those who are converted to Christ during the tribulation, including Jews (the 144,000) who turn to Christ, go on into the millennium to re-populate the earth. Glorified believers rule with Christ during his future reign.

There is a "rapture" of believers when Jesus Christ returns to earth before the seven year tribulation period begins. Thus, believers do not experience the persecution of the Anti-Christ who rises to prominence during this "tribulation period." (Note: most, but not all, believe in a pre-trib raputure.) The rapture is the next event to occur in Biblical prophecy. The signs of the end of the age (i.e., the birth of the nation of Israel, the revival of the Roman empire as seen through the emergence of the EEC, the impending Russian-Arab invasion of Israel, etc.) all point to the immediacy of the return of Christ.

The millennium is marked by a return to Old Testament temple worship and sacrifice to commemorate the sacrifice of Christ. At the end of the millennium, the "great white throne" judgment occurs, and Satan and all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. There is the creation of a new heaven and earth.

Dispensationalism was largely popularized through the Scofield Reference Bible and is now represented by the notes in the Ryrie Study Bible. Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series also represent this view. Leading dispensational theologians and writers include John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, Charles Feinberg, Charles Swindoll, Dave Hunt, Jack Van Impe and Charles Stanley. The Calvary Chapel movement represents the Charismatic side of Dispensationalism.

Historic Premillennialism --
While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," historic premillennialism is a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history.
When Jesus began his public ministry the kingdom of God was manifest through His ministry. Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgment.

During the period immediately preceding the return of Christ, there is great apostasy and tribulation. After the return of Christ, there will be a period of 1000 years (the millennium separating the "first" resurrection from the "second" resurrection). Satan will be bound, and the kingdom will consummated, that is, made visible during this period.

At the end of the millennial period, Satan will be loosed and there will be a massive rebellion (of "Gog and Magog"), immediately preceding the "second" resurrection or final judgment. After this, there will be the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.

Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that many of the early Church Fathers (i.e. Ireneaus [140-203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been an disciple of the apostle of John, Justin Martyr [100-165], and Papias [80-155]), apparently believed and taught that there would be a visible kingdom of God upon the earth after the return of Christ.

The most influential historic premillennialist of recent times was the late George Eldon Ladd of Fuller Seminary. The best examples of current historical premillennial thought would be at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (Evangelical Free) and Fuller Seminary. Surprisingly, a number of the faculty of Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis held to a covenantal form of premillennialism.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thank you FOS for the post. There is a lot to consider in your post.

I have a question for you. If in fact Christ is coming back to set up a millennial kingdom on this earth, why did He say the following to Pilot? Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,”

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Thank you FOS for the post. There is a lot to consider in your post.

I have a question for you. If in fact Christ is coming back to set up a millennial kingdom on this earth, why did He say the following to Pilot? Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,”

I believe the my post above sets out the two pre-mil positions in an honest, forthright manner -- free of any bias. That being said, I'm not pre-mil myself. So while you have a good question there, I'm just not the one to answer it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So, the DP’s actually believe in two returns of Christ while the Historic PM believe in one return at the end of the tribulation. The rapture occurs before the tribulation for the DP’s and after the tribulation for the PMmer’s. Is this what you are saying? I was under the impression that most PMer’s believed in a pretribulational rapture? Did I misunderstand you?

 

[InChrist]

Not all PM's believe in PT rapture. There are four views (I think that is all!) of when the rapture occurs: Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib.

Those who believe in the rapture do not classify this as the Second Coming of the Lord. They are two separate events.

The rapture (or "catching away") is when the Church meets the Lord "in the air" and is ONLY related to the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ and the Lord takes His Bride away to consumate the marriage. The Church body is distinct and separate from OT saints and future Millennial believers.

The Second Coming occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation and is when the Lord Jesus Christ actually sets His feet upon the Mount of Olives in the East of Jerusalem. The Second Coming is of great significance (but not exclusively) to the Jews, when they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn. At the Second Coming Jesus Christ will begin ruling and reigning LITERALLY on earth over the Tribulation surviving believing Jew and Gentile nations WITH the ALREADY glorified Church and Saints of the OT.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Not all PM's believe in PT rapture. There are four views (I think that is all!) of when the rapture occurs: Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib.

Those who believe in the rapture do not classify this as the Second Coming of the Lord. They are two separate events.

The rapture (or "catching away") is when the Church meets the Lord "in the air" and is ONLY related to the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ and the Lord takes His Bride away to consumate the marriage. The Church body is distinct and separate from OT saints and future Millennial believers.

The Second Coming occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation and is when the Lord Jesus Christ actually sets His feet upon the Mount of Olives in the East of Jerusalem. The Second Coming is of great significance (but not exclusively) to the Jews, when they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn. At the Second Coming Jesus Christ will begin ruling and reigning LITERALLY on earth over the Tribulation surviving believing Jew and Gentile nations WITH the ALREADY glorified Church and Saints of the OT.

Thanks. I think you've summarized some additional points of the Dispy/PreMil position quite well. Most people I know who fall into this camp tend to be pre-trib (that the rapture will occur befor the tribulation), but not all agree on this point.

Also as stated, the difference between the Dispy Pre-Mil and Historic Pre-Mil positions has much more to do than simply when the rapture occurs. Instead, it is the whole issue of dispensational theology.

 

[Allan]

There are really two premil views: Historic Premil and Dispensational Premil. Hope this helps.

Dispensational Premillennialism ---
Dispensationalists argue for the literal interpretation of all of the prophetic portions of Scripture. This means that all promises made to David and Abraham under the Old Covenant are to be literally fulfilled in the future millennial age. Dispensationalists insist that God has two redemptive plans, one for national Israel, and one for Gentiles during the "church age."

The church age is to be seen as that period of time in which God is dealing with Gentiles prior to the coming of the kingdom of God during the millennium. Jesus came to earth bringing with him an "offer" of the kingdom to the Jews, who rejected him. God then turned to dealing with the Gentiles -- thus, the church age is a parenthesis of sorts.

The Biblical data dealing with the time of tribulation is referring to unbelieving Israel, not the church. Therefore, the visible and physical second coming of Christ occurs after the great tribulation. Those who are converted to Christ during the tribulation, including Jews (the 144,000) who turn to Christ, go on into the millennium to re-populate the earth. Glorified believers rule with Christ during his future reign.

There is a "rapture" of believers when Jesus Christ returns to earth before the seven year tribulation period begins. Thus, believers do not experience the persecution of the Anti-Christ who rises to prominence during this "tribulation period." (Note: most, but not all, believe in a pre-trib raputure.) The rapture is the next event to occur in Biblical prophecy. The signs of the end of the age (i.e., the birth of the nation of Israel, the revival of the Roman empire as seen through the emergence of the EEC, the impending Russian-Arab invasion of Israel, etc.) all point to the immediacy of the return of Christ.

The millennium is marked by a return to Old Testament temple worship and sacrifice to commemorate the sacrifice of Christ. At the end of the millennium, the "great white throne" judgment occurs, and Satan and all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. There is the creation of a new heaven and earth.

Dispensationalism was largely popularized through the Scofield Reference Bible and is now represented by the notes in the Ryrie Study Bible. Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series also represent this view. Leading dispensational theologians and writers include John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, Charles Feinberg, Charles Swindoll, Dave Hunt, Jack Van Impe and Charles Stanley. The Calvary Chapel movement represents the Charismatic side of Dispensationalism.

Historic Premillennialism --
While often popularly confused with "dispensational premillennialism" with but a mere disagreement as to the timing of the "rapture," historic premillennialism is a completely different eschatological system, largely rejecting the whole dispensational understanding of redemptive history.
When Jesus began his public ministry the kingdom of God was manifest through His ministry. Upon His ascension into heaven and the "Gift of the Spirit" at Pentecost, the kingdom is present through the Spirit, until the end of the age, which is marked by the return of Christ to the earth in judgment.

During the period immediately preceding the return of Christ, there is great apostasy and tribulation. After the return of Christ, there will be a period of 1000 years (the millennium separating the "first" resurrection from the "second" resurrection). Satan will be bound, and the kingdom will consummated, that is, made visible during this period.

At the end of the millennial period, Satan will be loosed and there will be a massive rebellion (of "Gog and Magog"), immediately preceding the "second" resurrection or final judgment. After this, there will be the creation of a new Heaven and Earth.

Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that many of the early Church Fathers (i.e. Ireneaus [140-203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been an disciple of the apostle of John, Justin Martyr [100-165], and Papias [80-155]), apparently believed and taught that there would be a visible kingdom of God upon the earth after the return of Christ.

The most influential historic premillennialist of recent times was the late George Eldon Ladd of Fuller Seminary. The best examples of current historical premillennial thought would be at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (Evangelical Free) and Fuller Seminary. Surprisingly, a number of the faculty of Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis held to a covenantal form of premillennialism.

Not exactly sure where you got this information but it isn't actaully accurate and it's information seems to be biased sine it seems to (purposely or not) omit certain things.

For one I noticed that the article left out any prominant Reformed peoples who hold to dispensationalism, but it does include in that list those who are actaully Hyper-dispy (such as Jack Van-Impy and Hal Linsey) and these should not be equated with those of dispensationalism any more than Hyper-Cals should be considered true Calvinists or Reformed. These are go far beyond the common views of dispensationalism. Another you can add to the hyper-dispy view is John Haggie who believes that Israel has a different gospel to be saved by.

But the main issue I have is the incorrectness here is of the historical understanding of the Pre-mil view. It is extremely limited in information concerning this view.

There were a great many others besides Ireneaus and Papias who believed and taught the Pre-mill view as can be seen here in a previous post of mine. It was consistant and main view (or oxthodox teaching) of the early church till about 450'ish ad (when Augustine made Amil a popular view). Justin Martyr is the one who even specifically states that it was the orthodox teaching of the church at large during his time in the 2nd century.

Secondly, they not 'only' taught about a visible earthly kingdom for a literal 1000 years after the return of Christ (though it is the main points often talked about) but here is a listing of their views as given by church historians from the scholars of the Amil, Pre-mil, and Dispy's
:
1. The anti-christ (a person) would both arise and reign
2. Christ's return physically to earth and the overthrow of the anti-christ.
3. Christ establishing His physical Kingdom on the earth.
4. He would reign from Jerusalem both over and with His saints of all ages.
5. His reign would last a literal 1000 years.
6. There were distinct resurrections. That of the saints before the 1000 year reign and the general - those who would be raised up for Judgment.

I addressed these in this post on another thread most specifically regarding the Pre-mil view being the undisputed view of the early Church till about 450 ad or so (or the first 300 years of it) till Augustine lead a move away from the orginal orthodox teachings of the church toward an Amil view - as a church teaching on the whole.

The above is actaully the foundations or corner stones of the Dipsy view and as such it is an extension of the pre-mil view but is also distinct from the Pre-mil view in other ways.

 

[Allan]

Not all PM's believe in PT rapture. There are four views (I think that is all!) of when the rapture occurs: Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib.

Those who believe in the rapture do not classify this as the Second Coming of the Lord. They are two separate events.

The rapture (or "catching away") is when the Church meets the Lord "in the air" and is ONLY related to the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ and the Lord takes His Bride away to consumate the marriage. The Church body is distinct and separate from OT saints and future Millennial believers.

The Second Coming occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation and is when the Lord Jesus Christ actually sets His feet upon the Mount of Olives in the East of Jerusalem. The Second Coming is of great significance (but not exclusively) to the Jews, when they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn. At the Second Coming Jesus Christ will begin ruling and reigning LITERALLY on earth over the Tribulation surviving believing Jew and Gentile nations WITH the ALREADY glorified Church and Saints of the OT.

Sorry, you are confusing Dispensationalism with Premil.

Pre-mill was always resurrection after the Tribulation. This is where the Amils get a subgroup called Post-Mills.

The pre-trib, mid-trib, are found only in dispensationalism with regard to the rapture.

 

[InChrist]

Sorry, you are confusing Dispensationalism with Premil.

Pre-mill was always resurrection after the Tribulation. This is where the Amils get a subgroup called Post-Mills.

The pre-trib, mid-trib, are found only in dispensationalism with regard to the rapture.

Oh ok. I didn't realise there was a distinction on this point. My assumption was that since all who are pre-mill recognise that the tribulation is prior to the Millennium then ANY teaching of the rapture at any point of the tribulation was naturally pre-mill (before millennium) whether of a dispensational view or not.

I'm not sure that I understand the difference but thanks for clarification.

 

[Allan]

Oh ok. I didn't realise there was a distinction on this point. My assumption was that since all who are pre-mill recognise that the tribulation is prior to the Millennium then ANY teaching of the rapture at any point of the tribulation was naturally pre-mill (before millennium) whether of a dispensational view or not.

I'm not sure that I understand the difference but thanks for clarification.

The classification is only in what was 'historically' believed and what is the extension of that belief system.

But No prob brother.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Not exactly sure where you got this information but it isn't actaully accurate and it's information seems to be biased sine it seems to (purposely or not) omit certain things.

For one I noticed that the article left out any prominant Reformed peoples who hold to dispensationalism, but it does include in that list those who are actaully Hyper-dispy (such as Jack Van-Impy and Hal Linsey) and these should not be equated with those of dispensationalism any more than Hyper-Cals should be considered true Calvinists or Reformed. These are go far beyond the common views of dispensationalism. Another you can add to the hyper-dispy view is John Haggie who believes that Israel has a different gospel to be saved by.

But the main issue I have is the incorrectness here is of the historical understanding of the Pre-mil view. It is extremely limited in information concerning this view.

There were a great many others besides Ireneaus and Papias who believed and taught the Pre-mill view as can be seen here in a previous post of mine. It was consistant and main view (or oxthodox teaching) of the early church till about 450'ish ad (when Augustine made Amil a popular view). Justin Martyr is the one who even specifically states that it was the orthodox teaching of the church at large during his time in the 2nd century.

Secondly, they not 'only' taught about a visible earthly kingdom for a literal 1000 years after the return of Christ (though it is the main points often talked about) but here is a listing of their views as given by church historians from the scholars of the Amil, Pre-mil, and Dispy's
:
1. The anti-christ (a person) would both arise and reign
2. Christ's return physically to earth and the overthrow of the anti-christ.
3. Christ establishing His physical Kingdom on the earth.
4. He would reign from Jerusalem both over and with His saints of all ages.
5. His reign would last a literal 1000 years.
6. There were distinct resurrections. That of the saints before the 1000 year reign and the general - those who would be raised up for Judgment.

I addressed these in this post on another thread most specifically regarding the Pre-mil view being the undisputed view of the early Church till about 450 ad or so (or the first 300 years of it) till Augustine lead a move away from the orginal orthodox teachings of the church toward an Amil view - as a church teaching on the whole.

The above is actaully the foundations or corner stones of the Dipsy view and as such it is an extension of the pre-mil view but is also distinct from the Pre-mil view in other ways.

Sorry. Didn't mean to be biased at all. (Actually, I listed the fact that some faculty at Covenant Seminary (Presbyterian) were premil and I did mention Justin Matyr.) I would be interested if you knew of other reformed theologians who were premil. Regarding the additional details, I appreciate the listing of 1-6 -- very helpful & easy to read.

 

[Allan]

Sorry. Didn't mean to be biased at all. (Actually, I listed the fact that some faculty at Covenant Seminary (Presbyterian) were premil and I did mention Justin Matyr.) I would be interested if you knew of other reformed theologians who were premil. Regarding the additional details, I appreciate the listing of 1-6 -- very helpful & easy to read.

When I said 'biased' I didn't mean it strictly in the negitive sense but as I stated in that much information was not given.

This gives you not only where to find the quotes but also the Church Historians who cite the works. One is even a secular Historian and anti-christian whos writing is primarily about the Fall of Rome but also gives referneces and citations in his book about the prominant views and beliefs of the Christians during that time.

 

[Allan]

double posting

 

[Allan]

WHOA! Triple posting