The Pre Mil Position

[InChrist]

Sorry, you are confusing Dispensationalism with Premil.

Pre-mill was always resurrection after the Tribulation. This is where the Amils get a subgroup called Post-Mills.

The pre-trib, mid-trib, are found only in dispensationalism with regard to the rapture.

Can you please explain how Amils get a subgroup called Post-Mill from a post-Tribulation view point?

 

[Allan]

Can you please explain how Amils get a subgroup called Post-Mill from a post-Tribulation view point?

First I never said it was 'post-Tribulation' view. It is a post-mileinia view. A view that Christ will come back literally at the end of a long period of time. IOW - at the end of the 1000 years which is not a literal time but a figuritive one illistrating a long period)

The distinction is between amils and posts is one of literal fulfillment regarding the Kingdom. Amils believe it is not a literal Kingdom but a spiritual (full preterist) and the Posts (partial preterists) believe that Christ will actaully set up an earthly Kingdom but only after the Church has subdued the world and brought the gospel to all and righteousness becomes the norm (very brief version).

They are called post's not because of the Tribulation but because the Kingdom is established when Christ comes back 'after' the Millinium. IOW - we are living in the Millenium and awaiting His return.

 

[Allan]

Here is a basic break down.

Today, it seems the most predominant view is premillennialism. This view holds to the idea that Christ’s second coming will precede the millennium. According to Henry Virkler in his book Hermeneutics, premillennialists believe that “He (Christ) will descend to earth and set up a literal 1000-year earthly kingdom with its headquarters in Jerusalem” (Virkler, 201). It is important to understand that not all premillennialists agree on all the details. There are two major camps of premillennialists: traditional premillennialists and dispensational premillennialists. When it comes to the actual details of the millenium there will be a lot of disagreement on its nature and purpose, but to be a premillenialist a person must believe that Christ’s second coming will take place before the millennium (pre-millennium).

Postmillennialism, according to Virkler, “is the view that through evangelism, the world eventually will be reached for Christ. There will be a period in which the world will experience joy and peace because of its obedience to God. Christ will return to earth at the end of the millennium” (post-millennium) (201). It must be clarified that postmillennialists do not believe that everyone will be a Christian during this time, but that society as a whole will be Christian.

Amillennialism, according to Virkler, “is conceptually a form of postmillennialism. The millennium, in this theory, is symbolic and refers to the time between Christ’s first and second coming. During this time Christ rules symbolically in men’s hearts. Christ’s second coming will mark the end of the period.” Amillennialists believe the Christ will never have an earthly rule (a- or no-millennium)” (201).

Eddited in - Just to clarify something on the Amil side. They do believe that Christ is ruling and reigning now but He will not establish an earthly Kingdom.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Allan --

Excellent posts. A few points.

While Post/A Mil positions are closer to each than to a Pre Mil view, I don't think I would agree with Virkler that AMil is a conceptual form of PostMil. Just my 2 cents.

You mention a preterism as it relates to A/Post Mils, which is a totally separate view of things. I think it would be difficult (impossible?) to be a full preterist & still be A/Post Mil. However, one could if he was partial preterist. I think the views of RC Sproul fall into this category.

Lastly, Virkler mentions that today "the most predominant view is premillennialism." While this is probably true within the evangelical family of churces, I don't think that's true when considering all of Christendom.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

In Christ: Not all PM's believe in PT rapture. There are four views (I think that is all!) of when the rapture occurs: Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib.

HP: I thought Mid- trib was Pre-wrath? Do you see a distinction?

 

[Ed Edwards]

HP: I thought Mid- trib was Pre-wrath? Do you see a distinction?

I've talked to people who make a difference Here is my outline of the Endtimes from my study. Note in general I'm pre-trib rapture2, pre-mill Second Advent of Jesus, futurist (in general also I usually don't try to defend the the stand of others, only my own, I tend not to be generic dispie nor generic Calvin.

Again: the non-pre-trib outlines are mine, not necessarily those of the position given. Let the non-pre-tribs give there own outlines, if they desire

------------------------------
x-mill = x-millennial: the relationship of the Millennial (1,000 year)
Messianic Reign of Christ, and His Second Coming
('pre-' means the Second coming is before the Millenniuml)

x-trib = x-tribulation: the relationship of the tribulation
and the rapture/resurrection ('pre-' means the
rapture/resurrection comes before the Tribulation period)

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. physical/literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. physical/literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual/literal MK=millennial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here


Expanded pretrib pre-mill timeline:
(this is a work in progress, please comment
-- constructive comments & even destructive
comment help. thank you.)

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church completed (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8 )
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet completed (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast initiated (Rev 13:16-18 )
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation Judgement period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18 )
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!
------------------------------------

I marked a couple of items that different people call the beginning of wrath:

Mid trib folk:
2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation Judgement period

pre wrath folk:
2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed, I like your simplified outlines. I may not the one to check you for accuracy, but it does give a good way to start a comparison of the many different views in a concise manner. Thanks.

If one was to break the total tribulation period up into two parts, one being the first three and a half years and the later 3 ½ being the wrath of God, would not the events that would happen in the first half of the tribulation be in reality at the 1 ¾ year mark?

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Here are summaries of the postmil and amil views. Hope this is helpful. I'm sure I probably missed something. If so, please feel free to add.


Postmillennialism: Christ's Second coming after or post- thousand years; Gradual age of Christian revival followed by Christ's return; it can be literal 1000 years or non-literal for long period of time; Good gradually triumphs until the end. Postmillennialism is an optimistic eschatology of the victory grace of God in subduing evil in the world.

Postmillennialists affirm that the millennium is a period of universal peace and righteousness in this world, which precedes the return of Jesus Christ to earth in judgment. According to postmillennialists, there will be universal preaching and acceptance of the Gospel, and a complete and total victory of the kingdom of God, over the forces of Satan and unbelief. They are divided as to whether or not the period of time is a literal one thousand years, and whether or not the millennial age begins abruptly or gradually.

Some see the millennial age as entirely future, others argue that it may have already begun to gradually emerge. Postmillennialists also disagree as to the events that mark the beginning of the millennial age, such as the conversion of Israel (Romans 9-11), the binding of Satan (Revelation 20), and the defeat of the Antichrist.


Amillennialism: Means a non-literal "thousand years" or long age between Christ's first and second comings; Good and evil are relatively equal until the end. The "a" millennial (literally meaning "no" millennium) position is the view of historic Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed Christianity. It is estimated that about two-thirds of Christendom espouse amillennial eschatology.

Most amillennialists insist that the promises made to national Israel, David and Abraham in the OT are fulfilled by Christ and the Church during this age, which is the millennium, which is the entire period of time between the two advents of our Lord. Generally speaking, they see the millennial age as one of both the triumph of the spiritual kingdom of God and the corresponding rise of evil in opposition.

The "thousand years" are therefore symbolic of the entire inter-advental age. Satan is bound by Christ's victory over him and the establishment of the kingdom of God via the preaching of the gospel. Satan is no longer free to deceive the nations, through the presence of Christ is reigning in heaven during this period with the martyrs who come out of the great tribulation. At the end of the millennial age, Christ returns in judgment. The general resurrection occurs, final judgment takes place for all men and women, and a new Heaven and Earth are established.

In most forms of amillennialism, immediately before the return of Christ, Satan is unbound, there is a great apostasy, and a time of unprecedented satanically inspired evil. This last Satanic gasp and subsequent rebellious activity is destroyed by our Lord at his return.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

FOS: Postmillennialism is an optimistic eschatology of the victory grace of God in subduing evil in the world.

HP: Do you suppose that they believe that we could just put hell and the destruction of this earth on hold seeing evil can be subdued by other gentler means? :tonofbricks:

 

[thegospelgeek]

Great thread. A discussion of the different views without the need to criticize, condem, and flat name call one another. How very... christain.:saint:

This helps me considerably. I know what I believe but I am new to some of the terminolgy and beliefs of others. Keep up the good work!

 

[InChrist]

HP: I thought Mid- trib was Pre-wrath? Do you see a distinction?

I believe that Pre-wrath is a fairy new position (since around 1990?) and places the rapture after the mid-point of the tribulation, but before the wrath of God. I'm not sure how this conclusion is drawn from Scripture.

 

[Allan]

I believe that Pre-wrath is a fairy new position (since around 1990?) and places the rapture after the mid-point of the tribulation, but before the wrath of God. I'm not sure how this conclusion is drawn from Scripture.

On the time line your are correct in that the Pre-wrath view is fairly new (as a church wide/held view) but it actually goes further back that that, I have to look at my notes (from long time past ) but I believe it was something that is also seen in the 1700's or so. I'll have to get back with you on that though.

The conclusion comes from scripture itself in 1 Thes 5.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Remember that the context of 1 Thes 5 is regarding the wrath or judgment of God upon mankind or the world, ie. physically not spiritually.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now the rendering in 5:9 might be able to be debated but the context of 1st half of the chapter in which this is found I believe can not be.

 

[Allan]

HP: Do you suppose that they believe that we could just put hell and the destruction of this earth on hold seeing evil can be subdued by other gentler means? :tonofbricks:

Honestly, I never understood the thinking on this aspect of the view. I know the scriptures they use but contextually it doesn't fit and theologically one is hard pressed to show it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

InChrist: I believe that Pre-wrath is a fairly new position (since around 1990?) and places the rapture after the mid-point of the tribulation, but before the wrath of God. I'm not sure how this conclusion is drawn from Scripture.

HP: It has been around as long as I can remember, just not possibly a mainstream notion. One has to realize that because an idea does not get the mainstream press of the Church world, that it does not mean the idea is not viable and that there can many that believe it to be true. Just as the mainstream media decides what it wants to give the public for information, the Church does the same although possibly not in such an organized disinformational fashion. It is that if you differ from the mainstream, the ideas that sell books etc. written by popular writers with popular views, getting out the news remains often a formidable task. Remeber that when reading history. Many views simply did not have the political muster to get into the hands of the people many times, and those that did, and disagreed with the powers to be, got destroyed, often by fire and even death to the author.


I understand that view just as you said, in that there is one return of Christ, midpoint in the tribulational period. After the saints are rapture God pours out his wrath as mentioned in Revelations, at which point none are saved subsequently, all failing to repent as Scripture states is the case. I have heard differences of opinion by those that hold this view as to the existence or not on a literal millennium on this earth and as to how that would come onto the scene or not, and have yet to get a straight answer from those that I know. Some believe that there will be a millennial reign on this earth and others do not.

I have never read anywhere where one placed in writing their views that are pre-wrath, but I am certain someone has if one just knew where to find it. Trust me, if Scripture is a big enough tent to find support for a pretribulational view, it certainly is big enough to support other views as well.

 

[Allan]

Allan --

Excellent posts. A few points.

While Post/A Mil positions are closer to each than to a Pre Mil view, I don't think I would agree with Virkler that AMil is a conceptual form of PostMil. Just my 2 cents.

You mention a preterism as it relates to A/Post Mils, which is a totally separate view of things. I think it would be difficult (impossible?) to be a full preterist & still be A/Post Mil. However, one could if he was partial preterist. I think the views of RC Sproul fall into this category.

Lastly, Virkler mentions that today "the most predominant view is premillennialism." While this is probably true within the evangelical family of churces, I don't think that's true when considering all of Christendom.

You are correct in my mistake of say full preterism is the Amil view. Full preterism believes that Christ already came a second time (Seventh Day Adventists hold to this).

However Amils and Posts are Partial preterists though. I don't know what you understand Preterism to be but here is a basic but concise definition of the word.

Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days or End Times refer to events which already happened in the first century after Christ's birth

This is basis of the both the Amil and Post-mil position. That the prophesies have been fulfilled already (with the exception of Christs coming - Amil) or that they are almost completely fulfulled with the exception of the Millenial reign of Christ (Post-mil).

 

[InChrist]

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the SOULS of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the REST OF THE DEAD lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years” (Rev 20:4-6)

Maybe this has been answered somewhere here before (I'm new at these posts), but I wonder how Amil views deal with the resurrections as mentioned in the verses above?


[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

I'm also wondering where the nation of Israel fits into the picture as far as the Amil view is concerned? When does her restoration (as per the following Scriptures) take place in the timeline?

“For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king… AFTERWARD shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness IN THE LATTER DAYS” (Hos 3:4-5).

“Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people… and ye shall know THAT I AM IN THE MIDST OF ISRAEL, and that I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh.. for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance.” (Joel 2:18-32)


“Ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD (Ezek 37:13, 14)

“So the house of ISRAEL shall know that I am the LORD their God FROM THAT DAY AND FORWARD… Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have MERCY UPON THE WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and will be jealous for my holy name… When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. NEITHER WILL I HIDE MY FACE ANY MORE FROM THEM: FOR I HAVE POURED OUT MY SPIRIT UPON THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD GOD” (Ezek 39:22-29)

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with the HOUSE OF JUDAH… After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the LORD of hosts is his name: IF those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then THE SEED OF ISRAEL also shall cease from being A NATION before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; IF heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD” (Jer 31:31-37).
“And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS… many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up… to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for OUT OF ZION SHALL GO FOR THE LAW, AND THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM” (Isa 2:2-4).
“THEY PEOPLE ALSO SHALL BE ALL RIGHTEOUS: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified” (Isa 60:21).

“But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of THE GENTILES, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves” (Isa 61:6).

Daniel also foretold a day when the Jews and Jerusalem would experience “everlasting righteousness” (Dan 9:24-27), and that has never come upon the Jews or Jerusalem, so I'm wondering when that fits in too?

 

[Jerome]

"I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough of it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this. I imagine that you cannot read the Bible without seeing clearly that there is to be an actual restoration of the children of Israel." ---Spurgeon

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

HP: Do you suppose that they believe that we could just put hell and the destruction of this earth on hold seeing evil can be subdued by other gentler means? :tonofbricks:

My understanding of the postmil position is that the Gospel succeeds -- that the good news of the Gospel overcomes the world.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

You are correct in my mistake of say full preterism is the Amil view. Full preterism believes that Christ already came a second time (Seventh Day Adventists hold to this).

However Amils and Posts are Partial preterists though. I don't know what you understand Preterism to be but here is a basic but concise definition of the word.

This is basis of the both the Amil and Post-mil position. That the prophesies have been fulfilled already (with the exception of Christs coming - Amil) or that they are almost completely fulfulled with the exception of the Millenial reign of Christ (Post-mil).

I would agree that those (at least most) who hold to a partial preterist view also hold to an amil or postmil view. However, I'm not sure that the opposite is always true. Just because one is amil or postmil does not necessarily make one a partial preterist.

My understanding of the part pret view is that a portion (but not all) of the Biblical prophecies were fulfilled in early Christian history. The judgment, the destruction of Jerusalem, the great tribulation, etc. all refer to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD , not some judgment still to come. This also means that all of the prophecies regarding the "nearness" of the coming judgment were true and fulfilled.