The Pre Mil Position

[Allan]

I'm also wondering where the nation of Israel fits into the picture as far as the Amil view is concerned? When does her restoration (as per the following Scriptures) take place in the timeline?





Daniel also foretold a day when the Jews and Jerusalem would experience “everlasting righteousness” (Dan 9:24-27), and that has never come upon the Jews or Jerusalem, so I'm wondering when that fits in too?

Depending on the position you are dealing with it still amounts to about the same. (those two positions are Replacement or Continuation theologies)

The Church is now Israel, only we are Israel spiritually and all the promises made to the people were not really meant to be literal but spiritually understood. IOW - all the prophesies of restoration are actaully spiritually fulfilled in Christ. There is nothing physical ( literal) about those promises in their understanding.


And just in case you aren't familar with the two theologies I just mentioned here they are in a nut shell.
Replacement - The church has replaced Israel as God's people
Continuation - (first, I don't know if that is what it is actaully called but it will suffice) The church is the continuation of the true spiritual Israel and that there is no disction between them and the Church.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Allan: There is nothing physical ( literal) about those promises in their understanding.

HP: What? I hope I simply do not understand your position yet. Are you saying that the land involved, the physical space and dirt, was not to be taken literally by Abraham as a real parcel of real estate in the covenant God made to Abraham and his descendants?

 

[Allan]

I would agree that those (at least most) who hold to a partial preterist view also hold to an amil or postmil view. However, I'm not sure that the opposite is always true. Just because one is amil or postmil does not necessarily make one a partial preterist.

What group or view is a partial Pret but not Amil or post in the eschatology?

My understanding of the part pret view is that a portion (but not all) of the Biblical prophecies were fulfilled in early Christian history. The judgment, the destruction of Jerusalem, the great tribulation, etc. all refer to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD , not some judgment still to come. This also means that all of the prophecies regarding the "nearness" of the coming judgment were true and fulfilled.

That is one variation yes and it typical of the Amil view point.
The Post (who is also a partial pret) states as you did that judgment against and the destruction of Israel is a past event but what is left to come is Christ's return, the Great white throne judgment and the millenial reign.

Remember that the Pret position holds the majority of prophies concerning end times has been fulfilled. Thus the basic but concise defintion of a Preterist as I quoted earlier without giving any specifics as to what constitutes partial or full.

Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days or End Times refer to events which already happened in the first century after Christ's birth

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Depending on the position you are dealing with it still amounts to about the same. (those two positions are Replacement or Continuation theologies)

The Church is now Israel, only we are Israel spiritually and all the promises made to the people were not really meant to be literal but spiritually understood. IOW - We all the prophesies of restoration are actaully spiritually fulfilled in Christ. There is nothing physical ( literal) about those promises in their understanding.


And just in case you aren't familar with the two theologies I just mentioned here they are in a nut shell.
Replacement - The church has replaced Israel as God's people
Continuation - (first, I don't know if that is what it is actaully called but it will suffice) The church is the continuation of the true spiritual Israel and that there is no disction between them and the Church.

Thanks Allan. I think that's a fair assessment. This was from my note on amil earlier -- "most amillennialists insist that the promises made to national Israel, David and Abraham in the OT are fulfilled by Christ and the Church during this age."

 

[Allan]

HP: What? I hope I simply do not understand your position yet. Are you saying that the land involved, the physical space and dirt, was not to be taken literally by Abraham as a real parcel of real estate in the covenant God made to Abraham and his descendants?

Not with regard to the Amil or Post-mil view, no.

I am neither. I am hybrid so to speak. I hold closer to a historic Pre-mil view with definate Dispensational tendencies.

 

[Marcia]

You are correct in my mistake of say full preterism is the Amil view. Full preterism believes that Christ already came a second time (Seventh Day Adventists hold to this).

Allan, thanks for all the info. However, I think you are wrong on the Seventh Day Adventists. When the prophecies of Jesus' return in the 1800s (3 different times) failed, someone decided that Jesus did return in 1844, but the "return" was Jesus entering the heavenly sanctuary. However, they still believe Jesus will come back. They believe that when He does, those worshiping on Sunday will be found to be in league with the anti-christ.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church holds a unique system of eschatological (or end-times) beliefs. Adventist eschatology, which is based on a historicist interpretation of prophecy, is characterised principally by the premillennial second coming of Jesus Christ. Traditionally, the church has taught that the second coming will be preceded by a global crisis with the Sabbath as a central issue. At Jesus' return, the righteous will be taken to heaven for one thousand years. After the millennium, the unsaved will be punished by annihilation while the saved will live on a recreated Earth for eternity.

Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology


This is from a So. Baptist site:
The SDA Church teaches that we are in the last days. They do not set a date for the second coming, but imply that it will be soon. Bible prophecy can be understood from world history, as interpreted by Mrs. White. The SDA remnant church is proclaiming the final call for all people to prepare for the coming of Christ. They believe certain, specific signs will precede the end, especially a worldwide legal requirement for Sunday worship, the mark of the beast.
Source:
http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2951373/k.61F1/Seventhday_Adventism.htm

 

[Allan]

Thanks Allan. I think that's a fair assessment. This was from my note on amil earlier -- "most amillennialists insist that the promises made to national Israel, David and Abraham in the OT are fulfilled by Christ and the Church during this age."

Hey I got one right !! :laugh: :godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Allan, can you state your beliefs in clear terms for the list? Do you believe that the land involved, the physical space and dirt, was not to be taken literally by Abraham as a real parcel of real estate in the covenant God made to Abraham and his descendants?

 

[Allan]

Allan, thanks for all the info. However, I think you are wrong on the Seventh Day Adventists. When the prophecies of Jesus' return in the 1800s (3 different times) failed, someone decided that Jesus did return in 1844, but the "return" was Jesus entering the heavenly sanctuary. However, they still believe Jesus will come back. They believe that when He does, those worshiping on Sunday will be found to be in league with the anti-christ.


Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology


This is from a So. Baptist site:
The SDA Church teaches that we are in the last days. They do not set a date for the second coming, but imply that it will be soon. Bible prophecy can be understood from world history, as interpreted by Mrs. White. The SDA remnant church is proclaiming the final call for all people to prepare for the coming of Christ. They believe certain, specific signs will precede the end, especially a worldwide legal requirement for Sunday worship, the mark of the beast.
Source:
http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2951373/k.61F1/Seventhday_Adventism.htm

Yes, you are correct. I was remembering their views prior to that reversal of thinking. Thanks Marcia.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I feel a Bobby Ryan coming on! I feel it in my bones!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Allan]

Allan, can you state your beliefs in clear terms for the list? Do you believe that the land involved, the physical space and dirt, was not to be taken literally by Abraham as a real parcel of real estate in the covenant God made to Abraham and his descendants?

I do believe that those promises which God gave to Abraham and David (not neglecting the other but these suffice) are to still be fulfilled.

I believe that God has not cast those who He foreknew away (Rom 11:1), anymore than He will cast aside us or those whom He did foreknow (Rom 8:29)


Is that clear on that portion?

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

What group or view is a partial Pret but not Amil or post in the eschatology? quote]

I do think those who are part pret tend to be A/Post Mil. I'm not sure all who are A/Post Mil are necessarily part preterists though. In any event, I appreciate your comments throughout.

 

[Marcia]

This is the SDA view of the endtimes, according to this article. I went on the official SDA site several years ago, and read for myself their words that those worshipping on Sunday would be aligned with the antichrist. When I tried to find that again, they had rearranged their website and it seems, removed that part. I tried several times to find it. I think they still believe it but they don't like people knowing that.

Also, SDAs have TV shows and seminars which they sponsor but they keep the SDA name out of it. They also have sometimes aligned themselves with cults that bring suits against various organizations or people.

Following the close of probation will be a "time of trouble", a brief but intense period of time immediately preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ. Adventists have traditionally believed that the Roman Catholic Church will return to prominence during the end times, fulfilling the prophecy of the first beast of Revelation 13 (the leopard-like beast from the sea) whose "deadly wound" (i.e. the deposal of the Pope in 1798) will be healed.[15][16] The United States of America, meanwhile, will establish ties with the Papacy, in fulfilment of the second beast of Revelation 13 (the lamb-like beast from the earth).[17] (J. N. Andrews was the first Adventist to identify America in prophecy, in 1851).

Ultimately, the Protestant churches of America will join the confederation between the beasts, forming the “image to the beast” (Revelation 13:14-15). At this time, a conflict will ensue that will "involve the whole world", and in which "the central issue will be obedience to God's law and the observance of the Sabbath."[18][19] Religious and civil authorities will combine to enact a "Sunday law" which requires all people to observe Sunday as a sacred day. The "Sunday law" is interpreted as the meaning of the "mark of the beast", described in Revelation 13:16-17.[20][21]

In contrast to those who choose to obey the "Sunday law", and therefore receive the "mark of the beast", people who observe the seventh-day Sabbath will receive the "Seal of God" (mentioned in Revelation 7:2ff.).[22] Sabbath keepers will experience fierce persecution from world governments, which will include economic coercion and ultimately the death penalty.[

Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology

 

[Allan]

I think this is about to turn from Pre-mil views to SDA views :laugh:
Mainly because I agree with HP, I hear Bob Ryan gettting closer and both guns are loaded :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Allan: I do believe that those promises which God gave to Abraham and David (not neglecting the other but these suffice) are to still be fulfilled.

I believe that God has not cast those who He foreknew away (Rom 11:1), anymore than He will cast aside us or those whom He did foreknow (Rom 8:29)


Is that clear on that portion?

HP: Not in the least. You did not answer the question that I asked in the least that I can tell. Try it again.

 

[Allan]

Ok you stated

Allan, can you state your beliefs in clear terms for the list? Do you believe that the land involved, the physical space and dirt, was not to be taken literally by Abraham as a real parcel of real estate in the covenant God made to Abraham and his descendants?

I said:

I do believe that those promises which God gave to Abraham and David ......are to still be fulfilled.

So what are you not understanding. I directly answered your question.
Do I beleive?.. I do believe..[editted in] that the land promised to Isreal is still to be fulfilled as their possession.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Allen: Do I beleive?.. I do believe..

HP: Sure, you believe, just like Obama has hope. Whatever Allan. :sleep:

 

[InChrist]

Depending on the position you are dealing with it still amounts to about the same. (those two positions are Replacement or Continuation theologies)

The Church is now Israel, only we are Israel spiritually and all the promises made to the people were not really meant to be literal but spiritually understood. IOW - all the prophesies of restoration are actaully spiritually fulfilled in Christ. There is nothing physical ( literal) about those promises in their understanding.


And just in case you aren't familar with the two theologies I just mentioned here they are in a nut shell.
Replacement - The church has replaced Israel as God's people
Continuation - (first, I don't know if that is what it is actaully called but it will suffice) The church is the continuation of the true spiritual Israel and that there is no disction between them and the Church.

So if all the Scriptures I quoted in the previous post, regarding a literal future restoration of the nation of Israel, are now to be understood as promises for the Church (us), then what exactly is it that the Church is being restored from?

These prophecies in their original context concerned the physical nation of Israel in the physical land that God had promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, a nation who had profaned the name of the Lord their God with their idolatry and wickedness. God's promises to restore the nation of Israel are not for THEIR sakes, but for HIS very own name's sake.

So how can this prophesied future restoration of the fallen nation of Israel for the Lord's Name sake now be fitted to the Church, who is the very Body of Christ?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You have to understand that Allan 'believes,' InChrist. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Marcia]

I think this is about to turn from Pre-mil views to SDA views :laugh:
Mainly because I agree with HP, I hear Bob Ryan gettting closer and both guns are loaded :laugh:

Don't worry, I'm not going to turn into an SDA thread!

I know what you mean about the guns loaded! :laugh: