The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[Revmitchell]

I did answer your questions. I hope you will answer mine concerning Hebrews 10:12-13 where Jesus is said to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us, waiting until “His enemies are made His footstool”

His enemies are made His footstool at His 2nd coming, and the great throne judgement.

Until then, Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.

peace to you

So you believe He never leaves His seat until then?

 

[Campion]

Good grief

Yep. And were it not for Luther's former chancellor Andreas Karlstadt, it wouldn’t even be in the canon, as the Apocalypse was one of the New Testament books Luther wanted to take his scalpel to.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yep. And were it not for Luther's former chancellor Andreas Karlstadt, it wouldn’t even be in the canon, as the Apocalypse was one of the New Testament books Luther wanted to take his scalpel to.

Neither Luther nor anyone else determined what is in the cannon, only God did through men He called to do that.

 

[Campion]

Neither Luther nor anyone else determined what is in the cannon, only God did through men He called to do that.

Where and when did God determine your canon?

 

[Revmitchell]

Where and when did God determine your canon?

Why?

 

[Campion]

Why?

I'm just curious as there are different canons. If you claim that God determined the canon through certain men, I am wondering when, where and who were these men who received God's message to declare a book canonical. Did churches with a differing canon receive a different message?

Otherwise your assertion is just an opinion.

 

[canadyjd]

Where and when did God determine your canon?

By the end of the first century the 66 books we know as the Bible were collected by the Christian churches (not the Roman Catholic Church which didn’t exist) and compared to first hand witness accounts to what the apostles taught. The “canon” literally means a measuring rod.

This became the standard by which all documents were compared. I believe that collection is the work of God Holy Spirit Who is clearly seen in Acts as directing and influencing these early churches.

They have been very faithfully copied and preserved, despite the Catholic translation into Latin, which occurred about 400 AD with Jerome and added many errors in the translation, undoubtedly to support the Bishop of Rome’s attempt to control the churches.

The current list used by Catholics were added by the Catholic Church during the reformation to support Catholic doctrines not found in scripture that had been rejected by the reformers, including the doctrine of the Pope as Vicar of Christ, purgatory and plenary indulgences and the perpetual virginity of Mary the mother of Jesus.

peace to you

 

[LaGrange]

Hi DarrellC,

I read your posts and a couple of things I may have misunderstood you on. There are a couple of things you misunderstood me on too. Salty said they are getting ready to close this thread and I don’t have time to answer you right now. I usually will answer in the wee hours of the morning. That’s my time. Anyway, I’ll just have to catch you on another thread on prophecy. Thanks for answering me and telling me how to post. I’ll work on it! God bless!

 

[LaGrange]

Great post and well explained. Much better than I did previously.

Thanks Campion!

 

[canadyjd]

So you believe He never leaves His seat until then?

I believe that is what is stated in Hebrews 10:12-13, yes. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven as our High priest making intercession for us until His enemies are made His footstool.

That is what it says. If you have a different interpretation I’ll consider it.

peace to you

 

[Salty]

Hi DarrellC, ...Salty said they are getting ready to close this thread and I don’t have time to answer you right now. I usually will answer in the wee hours of the morning. That’s my time....!

lAGRANGE - Even if the thread is closed - you can always start a new thread - (unless it states not to). The reason we close is due to the length - and with someone new just coming will have a lot of catching up to do. Also feel free to link the old one to the new one in the OP>

And often - when a new one is started it is liable to be called ....Part II or something similar.

 

[LaGrange]

lAGRANGE - Even if the thread is closed - you can always start a new thread - (unless it states not to). The reason we close is due to the length - and with someone new just coming will have a lot of catching up to do. Also feel free to link the old one to the new one in the OP>

And often - when a new one is started it is liable to be called ....Part II or something similar.

Thanks Salty!

 

[Campion]

By the end of the first century the 66 books we know as the Bible were collected by the Christian churches (not the Roman Catholic Church which didn’t exist) and compared to first hand witness accounts to what the apostles taught. The “canon” literally means a measuring rod.

This became the standard by which all documents were compared. I believe that collection is the work of God Holy Spirit Who is clearly seen in Acts as directing and influencing these early churches.

They have been very faithfully copied and preserved, despite the Catholic translation into Latin, which occurred about 400 AD with Jerome and added many errors in the translation, undoubtedly to support the Bishop of Rome’s attempt to control the churches.

The current list used by Catholics were added by the Catholic Church during the reformation to support Catholic doctrines not found in scripture that had been rejected by the reformers, including the doctrine of the Pope as Vicar of Christ, purgatory and plenary indulgences and the perpetual virginity of Mary the mother of Jesus.

peace to you

There is NO Church which ever used a 66-book canon.

If you think I am in error, can you post any 66-book canon in Christian history prior to the 16th century?

 

[Revmitchell]

I believe that is what is stated in Hebrews 10:12-13, yes. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven as our High priest making intercession for us until His enemies are made His footstool.

That is what it says. If you have a different interpretation I’ll consider it.

peace to you

It is not meant to be taken in a wooden literal sense. It expresses His role in the Triune God.

 

[canadyjd]

There is NO Church which ever used a 66-book canon.

If you think I am in error, can you post any 66-book canon in Christian history prior to the 16th century?

The churches didn’t have “books” in the first century, they had scrolls or letters written to them, copied diligently and shared with other groups of believers in that area. They also had manuscripts from OT writings.

All of these writings were collected by the end of the first century by these churches when the Apostles were martyred and those who had heard their teachings verified they were true and consistent with apostolic instruction. These writings became the “canon” or measuring rod by which later writings were considered and rejected as being inconsistent with what was known to be scripture.

This was a work of God Holy Spirit to preserve the teaching of Jesus our Lord and His Apostles in His role of guiding the church into all truth.

When the Muslims conquered the East about 800-1000 AD, many of the church leaders fled to the west with these manuscripts. When Catholic priests learned how to read Kone Greek, they discovered major differences in what these manuscripts taught when compared to the Vulgate and Catholic doctrine.

This laid the foundation for what would become the “reformation” which was an effort by many Catholic priests to reform the Catholic Church to conform to the teaching of Jesus Christ and His apostles contained in these manuscripts.

The Catholic Church, rightly understanding it’s power was challenged by the truth of God’s word, declared these men and women heretics and sought to kill them all. At the same time they added other books as “authoritative” that supported their added doctrines but were contrary to God’s true word revealed by the end of the first century.

And so it continues today, with the Pope proclaiming himself Vicar, as if he speaks the very words of our Lord Jesus even when, especially when, what he teaches is contrary to scripture. And Catholics claim this man has the same authority as Christ when he speaks as Vicar.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

It is not meant to be taken in a wooden literal sense. It expresses His role in the Triune God.

But the reference to a 1000 year reign (never says on the earth btw) is to be taken in a wooden literal sense?

peace to you

 

[Campion]

The churches didn’t have “books” in the first century, they had scrolls or letters written to them, copied diligently and shared with other groups of believers in that area. They also had manuscripts from OT writings.

All of these writings were collected by the end of the first century by these churches when the Apostles were martyred and those who had heard their teachings verified they were true and consistent with apostolic instruction. These writings became the “canon” or measuring rod by which later writings were considered and rejected as being inconsistent with what was known to be scripture.

This was a work of God Holy Spirit to preserve the teaching of Jesus our Lord and His Apostles in His role of guiding the church into all truth.

When the Muslims conquered the East about 800-1000 AD, many of the church leaders fled to the west with these manuscripts. When Catholic priests learned how to read Kone Greek, they discovered major differences in what these manuscripts taught when compared to the Vulgate and Catholic doctrine.

This laid the foundation for what would become the “reformation” which was an effort by many Catholic priests to reform the Catholic Church to conform to the teaching of Jesus Christ and His apostles contained in these manuscripts.

The Catholic Church, rightly understanding it’s power was challenged by the truth of God’s word, declared these men and women heretics and sought to kill them all. At the same time they added other books as “authoritative” that supported their added doctrines but were contrary to God’s true word revealed by the end of the first century.

And so it continues today, with the Pope proclaiming himself Vicar, as if he speaks the very words of our Lord Jesus even when, especially when, what he teaches is contrary to scripture. And Catholics claim this man has the same authority as Christ when he speaks as Vicar.

peace to you

I’ll ask again:

Can you provide any Church in Christian history which used books / scrolls / manuscripts as their canon which equaled 66 until the 16th century?

 

[canadyjd]

I’ll ask again:

Can you provide any Church in Christian history which used books / scrolls / manuscripts as their canon which equaled 66 until the 16th century?

I’ll answer again, Yes, all the early churches in the Roman Empire had collected the writings of the Apostles, diligently copied and disseminated them throughout their areas by the end of the first century. This was accomplished as a work of God Holy Spirit.

They knew which writings were authoritative scripture with a direct connection to Jesus and/or His apostles. Tens of thousands of these copies have survived to this very day.

These writings became the “canon” or measuring rod by which all other writings were judged to be scripture or not, and when men learned how to make books, they put them into books. And when they invented the printing press, they made published many Bibles.

And when the Catholic Church attempted to add doctrine and support that doctrine with books not part of the canon, faithful Christians refused even to to the point of being tortured by Catholic inquisitors and burned at the stake.

Hint, if you have to use the fear of torture and death to keep your congregation in line, you are not worshipping Jesus Christ.

peace to you

 

[Campion]

I’ll answer again, Yes, all the early churches in the Roman Empire had collected the writings of the Apostles, diligently copied and disseminated them throughout their areas by the end of the first century. This was accomplished as a work of God Holy Spirit.

They knew which writings were authoritative scripture with a direct connection to Jesus and/or His apostles. Tens of thousands of these copies have survived to this very day.

These writings became the “canon” or measuring rod by which all other writings were judged to be scripture or not, and when men learned how to make books, they put them into books. And when they invented the printing press, they made published many Bibles.

And when the Catholic Church attempted to add doctrine and support that doctrine with books not part of the canon, faithful Christians refused even to to the point of being tortured by Catholic inquisitors and burned at the stake.

Hint, if you have to use the fear of torture and death to keep your congregation in line, you are not worshipping Jesus Christ.

peace to you

No, you are not answering my question. I'll try again.

Can you provide ANY Church in Christian history which used a 66-book (manuscript / scroll / writings) canon until the 16th century?

For example, here is an early canon listed by the Third Council of Carthage in 397 A.D.:

"It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two books of Paraleipomena, Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Of the New Testament: four books of the Gospels, one book of the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews, two Epistles of the Apostle Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, one book of the Apocalypse of John. Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon. because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept."

---> Four books of Kings = First and Second Samuel and First and Second Kings

---> Paraleipomena = Chronicles

---> Five books of Solomon = Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom of Solomon, and Ecclesiasticus

---> Two books of Esdras = Ezra and Nehemiah

---> Jeremiah = Included the book of Baruch, which was not separated out until later (Baruch was Jeremiah’s scribe)

Source

That's 73 books. Incidentally, this is the exact same canon that the Catholic Church affirmed at Rome in 381 A.D., then again repeatedly throughout history by Damasus, Innocent, Galasius, the Fathers at Florence, then declared dogmatically at Trent when people began removing books from the canon, and affirmed yet again at Vatican I.

Can you provide a similar list ANYWHERE in history prior to the genesis of Protestantism in the 16th century which is comprised of 66 books? You made the claim. I'm just wondering if your claim was just an assumption that it always was?

 

[canadyjd]

No, you are not answering my question. I'll try again.

Can you provide ANY Church in Christian history which used a 66-book (manuscript / scroll / writings) canon until the 16th century?

For example, here is an early canon listed by the Third Council of Carthage in 397 A.D.:

"It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two books of Paraleipomena, Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees. Of the New Testament: four books of the Gospels, one book of the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews, two Epistles of the Apostle Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, one book of the Apocalypse of John. Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon. because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept."

---> Four books of Kings = First and Second Samuel and First and Second Kings

---> Paraleipomena = Chronicles

---> Five books of Solomon = Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom of Solomon, and Ecclesiasticus

---> Two books of Esdras = Ezra and Nehemiah

---> Jeremiah = Included the book of Baruch, which was not separated out until later (Baruch was Jeremiah’s scribe)

Source

That's 73 books. Incidentally, this is the exact same canon that the Catholic Church affirmed at Rome in 381 A.D., then again repeatedly throughout history by Damasus, Innocent, Galasius, the Fathers at Florence, then declared dogmatically at Trent when people began removing books from the canon, and affirmed yet again at Vatican I.

Can you provide a similar list ANYWHERE in history prior to the genesis of Protestantism in the 16th century which is comprised of 66 books? You made the claim. I'm just wondering if your claim was just an assumption that it always was?

Like I said, there were no books, there were scrolls and letters. Some of these scrolls and letters were combined to make a single “book” at various stages in the church history, but the original writings that contained the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles were collected and disseminated by the end of the first century.

peace to you