The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[canadyjd]

Sure.

But first, please answer my question: are there two resurrections in Revelation or one?


God bless.

My position is that Matthew 24 is the definitive teaching on end times theology.

Jesus is specifically discussing His return. He specifically states His return occurs after the great tribulation. He specifically mentions the collection of the saints. He specifically mentions the judgement that follows.

All interpretations of any other passages must conform to the very clear teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24.

One more time, if you want to show me from Matthew 24, in context, how I have misread the passage, we can have a discussion.

Otherwise, thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

My position is that Matthew 24 is the definitive teaching on end times theology.

Jesus is specifically discussing His return. He specifically states His return occurs after the great tribulation. He specifically mentions the collection of the saints. He specifically mentions the judgement that follows.

All interpretations of any other passages must conform to the very clear teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24.

One more time, if you want to show me from Matthew 24, in context, how I have misread the passage, we can have a discussion.

Otherwise, thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

I have presented a few posts concerning Matthew 24, have you seen those?

I agree that this depicts Christ's Return and that this is seen in Revelation19.

And I agree wholeheartedly that all Scripture must conform to what is taught elsewhere, and I see that Matthew 24 and the events described are consistent with other passages.

My time here is coming to a close, so I hope that in the next few days we can seriously discuss Matthew 24, and how it might be relevant to other doctrinal issues.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

I have presented a few posts concerning Matthew 24, have you seen those?

I agree that this depicts Christ's Return and that this is seen in Revelation19.

And I agree wholeheartedly that all Scripture must conform to what is taught elsewhere, and I see that Matthew 24 and the events described are consistent with other passages.

My time here is coming to a close, so I hope that in the next few days we can seriously discuss Matthew 24, and how it might be relevant to other doctrinal issues.


God bless.

Do you agree Matthew 24 depicts (1) Christ’s 2nd coming. (2) the collection, rapture, of the saints (3) it is immediately followed by the great throne judgment all of which announced by the trumpet blast?

Peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

Do you agree Matthew 24 depicts (1) Christ’s 2nd coming. (2) the collection, rapture, of the saints (3) it is immediately followed by the great throne judgment all of which announced by the trumpet blast?

Peace to you

His Second Coming, yes.

The Rapture, no. That is the point of pointing out the Scripture referring to His Return: both the wicked and believing are judged at His Return. Whereas in the First Resurrection we see only believers that have died raised to life again.

The wicked at that time, while they go into everlasting punishment, this everlasting punishment begins in Hades, not Gehenna/Hell.


Revelation 20:4-6 King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Secondly, we do not see a focus on the living believing here.

Third, the "trumpet" is not the Last Trumpet Judgment. There is clearly a period of time after the Seventh Trumpet Judgment sounds. This unleashes the Seven Bowl Judgments.

Consider:


Exodus 19:16-20 King James Version

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.


Here we have a trumpet calling the people of God out of the camp. But we are not come unto Mount Sinai, but unto the Heavenly Jerusalem in the Rapture. Christ doesn't return in the Rapture, we are taken out.

Here is a trumpet that is specific to the Tribulation:


Zechariah 9:14-17 King James Version

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

The reference to corn and alcohol again shows a physical kingdom after the Tribulation.

Here, Israel is the object of salvation, and that is physical salvation as well as eternal salvation (for only those born again will enter into that kingdom).

Now a "trumpet" relevant to the Rapture:


Revelation 4 King James Version

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


It is a voice "as if it were the voice of a trumpet."

Isn't that what we see in regard to the trumpet?


1 Thessalonians 4:16 King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


It is the Lord "shouting," calling His people out of the "camp," the "wilderness." And unlike the people of God at Sinai, we can go into the presence of God boldly based on Christ's Sacrifice.


Revelation 1:10-11 King James Version

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


It is "the last trump/et" because it is the sound that calls us out of this world.

Again, the Lord is never said to return in the Rapture, we are said to be called out. Snatched up.

In the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which takes place at the Lord's Return, it is the wicked that are "taken (out)" and the believers are left:


Matthew 24:27-28 King James Version

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Luke 17:34-37 King James Version

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The gathering of the eagles represents the carrion fowl that will feast upon the carcasses of the dead unbelievers. This is the Supper of the Great God, spoken of in Prophecy in both Old and New Testaments. This takes place at the end of the Tribulation, and it does not correspond to the Church being called out of the world.

And that is the problem that arises from trying to make the last trump the Seventh Trumpet Judgment: it just doesn't fit in with what we're told.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Do you agree Matthew 24 depicts (1) Christ’s 2nd coming. (2) the collection, rapture, of the saints (3) it is immediately followed by the great throne judgment all of which announced by the trumpet blast?

Peace to you

Another issue we have to look at is the fact that when Prophecy is given, what is given isn't always fulfilled completely at the first fulfillment, which we would call a partial fulfillment.

Let me give you a couple examples of that. First, consider the prophecy concerning the prophesied Messiah. Do we not see that part of the prophecy was fulfilled at His First Coming and there is yet part of certain prophesies to be fulfilled? Here are the examples:


Zechariah 9:9-17 King James Version

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.


We understand the salvation in view is eternal salvation that the Lord brought. But the physical aspect of this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, and will not be until the Millennial Kingdom is established. Verse 9 corresponds to this:


Matthew 21:4-6 King James Version

4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,


Part of the Prophecy has been fulfilled, part has not. This is partial fulfillment in Prophecy. We see the same thing in Matthew 24: they will go into everlasting torment, but at the end of the Tribulation they do not go into Gehenna/Hell, they go into Hades and are not raised from the dead (the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were over) until the Second Resurrection of Revelation 20, the Great White Throne Judgment. The Great White Throne Judgment can be seen in Matthew 24, but it is not the specific event.


Here is another partial fulfillment during Christ's Day:


Luke 4:16-21 King James Version

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Now let's look at what was not fulfilled that day:


Fulfilled:

Isaiah 61 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


Unfulfilled:


Isaiah 61 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


This will be fulfilled through the Tribulation, which is the reminder of the Judgment against Israel, the Seventy Weeks, and judgment upon the Gentiles, for the "time of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled at that time:

Luke 21:24 KJV
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Note that this is found in a parallel teaching to Matthew 24:


Luke 21 KJV

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Note that the "desolation (of abomination)" has not taken place when Jerusalem is surrounded by enemies. It is "nigh."

Note that it is when the Abomination of Desolation takes place that Israel will flee into the mountains for 3 1/2 years (Revelation 12:1-6; Revelation 12:13-14).

And note especially v.22: The times Christ speak about in Mattthew 24 in regards to His Return are the Days of Veangeance, that all things which are written might be fulfilled.

And that is how Prophecy is always fulfilled. God will not leave unfulfilled that which He has declared He will do in His Word. When we eliminate important events from Prophecy and determine they aren't going to be fulfilled we have effectively taken away from the Word of God. And we are commanded not to do that.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Do you agree Matthew 24 depicts (1) Christ’s 2nd coming. (2) the collection, rapture, of the saints (3) it is immediately followed by the great throne judgment all of which announced by the trumpet blast?

Peace to you

The Great White Throne Judgment clearly has a thousand-year period between it and the Sheep and Goat Judgment:


Revelation 20:4-6 King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


In no language nor in any proper interpretive effort can these thousand years be removed from the Prophecy found here. Even if one tried to spiritualize this period it still amounts to a period of time that is extensive.

One must remove it from the Prophecy altogether.

"The rest of the dead," those physically destroyed in the "Days of Vengeance" seen in the last post, do not live again until the thousand years are over. We are told what their fate is, the second death, and this takes place at the Great White Throne Judgment:


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


In the interval, we have the thousand years, and as pointed out early on in this thread—there is a multitude of unbelievers that will be destroyed by GOd:


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


This takes place a thousand years after Christ's Return. That is the order it is given by Scripture itself.

We see in v.7 for the second time reference to Satan's binding for one thousand years. This ties this passage together and denies the idea that the events are not chronological.

That is why I began with this passage in a discussion concerning the Pre-Tribulational Rapture: because the thousand years are denied by those who reject the Doctrine.

And that is what is done in every argument against the Pre-Tribulational Rapture: what the Scriptures state are either removed or perverted to an extreme. The "last trump" being made the Seventh Trumpet Judgment is absurd because the Days of Vengeance aren't even finished. The Seventh Trumpet Judgment is the unleashing of the Seven Bowl/Vial Judgments, and while we cannot specifically nail down what that timeframe is, we cannot deny that they do not happen after the Tribulation ends.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

The Great White Throne Judgment clearly has a thousand-year period between it and the Sheep and Goat Judgment:


Revelation 20:4-6 King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


In no language nor in any proper interpretive effort can these thousand years be removed from the Prophecy found here. Even if one tried to spiritualize this period it still amounts to a period of time that is extensive.

One must remove it from the Prophecy altogether.

"The rest of the dead," those physically destroyed in the "Days of Vengeance" seen in the last post, do not live again until the thousand years are over. We are told what their fate is, the second death, and this takes place at the Great White Throne Judgment:


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


In the interval, we have the thousand years, and as pointed out early on in this thread—there is a multitude of unbelievers that will be destroyed by GOd:


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


This takes place a thousand years after Christ's Return. That is the order it is given by Scripture itself.

We see in v.7 for the second time reference to Satan's binding for one thousand years. This ties this passage together and denies the idea that the events are not chronological.

That is why I began with this passage in a discussion concerning the Pre-Tribulational Rapture: because the thousand years are denied by those who reject the Doctrine.

And that is what is done in every argument against the Pre-Tribulational Rapture: what the Scriptures state are either removed or perverted to an extreme. The "last trump" being made the Seventh Trumpet Judgment is absurd because the Days of Vengeance aren't even finished. The Seventh Trumpet Judgment is the unleashing of the Seven Bowl/Vial Judgments, and while we cannot specifically nail down what that timeframe is, we cannot deny that they do not happen after the Tribulation ends.


God bless.

Ok, just so I understand your argument..
(1) The Second Coming of Matthew 24 means Christ has returned to rule for 1000 years on earth and not to rule in heaven?
(2) The collection of the saints in Matthew 24 isn’t the rapture?
(3) The judgement of “sheep and goats) in Matthew 24 isn’t the great throne judgment?
(4) The place of punishment the “goats” ate sent to isn’t really hell, even though there is eternal torment?
(5) The trumpet that sounds in Matthew 24 isn’t the Last trumpet?
(6) The great tribulation Jesus describes in Matthew 24 isn’t really the great tribulation of the saint?
(7) So basically, any understanding of Matthew 24 must conform to dispensational theology and the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth?

I appreciate the conversation. I understand this is very important to you. I simply disagree.

There is no need to continue with me. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

Ok, just so I understand your argument..
(1) The Second Coming of Matthew 24 means Christ has returned to rule for 1000 years on earth and not to rule in heaven?

Yes to the first, no to the second: Christ rules in Heaven now. He is God. All authority has been given unto Him.

The Tribulation, thousand year reign (which is temporal, that is the distinction), and the passing away of this creation (at which time the new heavens and earth are created: Heaven itself is not recreated) do not change the fact that Jesus Christ is God, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

(2) The collection of the saints in Matthew 24 isn’t the rapture?

No, because by Christ's Own teaching believers are "left" when He returns, not taken.

In the Rapture the Church is called out of this world, it is not Christ returning. In His Return believers are "left" to populate the Millennial Kingdom.

All Prophecy agrees on those two points. Not a single prophecy presents a Return where Christ takes believers out of this world. The prophecy concerning His Return show that the world will be judged and He will rule over it at that time. All unbelievers will perish.

Only those who are born again will enter into that physical thousand-year kingdom/reign of Christ.

That is the Kingdom Nicodemus would have been familiar with, not the one that has been revealed to us in the New Testament.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

(3) The judgement of “sheep and goats) in Matthew 24 isn’t the great throne judgment?

Correct: there is the thousand years separating the two events.

(4) The place of punishment the “goats” ate sent to isn’t really hell, even though there is eternal torment?

Correct: as I tried to show in regard to partial fulfillment, the description given in Matthew 24 is applicable to both the Sheep and Goat Judgment as well as the Great White Throne Judgment. Just as Christ riding the foal was fulfilled yet there is still a differing "coming of Christ" to come (that is still relevant to the original prophecy), even so going into eternal torment begins when a man dies. This man was in eternal torment:


Luke 16:22-23 King James Version
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


The rich man was in eternal torment before Christ even died.

Eternal in the sense that his fate was sealed and his destiny would be everlasting.

Even so, those who perish in the Sheep and Goat Judgment go into the same everlasting torment the rich man found himself in. That's a horrible reality to dying outside of the will of God. That man has been in torment for over two thousand years now, and that will never end. When the dead (those without the life of Christ) are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, they will be raised first into bodies suitable for everlasting physical torment/judgment/damnation. That is why it is said "the dead lived not again (were not resurrected) until the thousand years were over.

(5) The trumpet that sounds in Matthew 24 isn’t the Last trumpet?

Not the last trump in regards to the Church, no.


Matthew 24:31 King James Version

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


In the Rapture, Christ gathers. Here, Angels gather. That corresponds to this teaching of Christ:


Matthew 13:37-42 King James Version

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Verse 42 (as it does in Matthew 24) does extend to Eternal Damnation in Hell, but that does not mean that they go into Hell at this time. Many parables speak of those who are cast into outer darkness at His Return. Torment begins in Hades for those who die outside of Christ in this Age. This was true for unbelievers in the Old Testament as well.

Paul's teaching states Christ gathers us in the Rapture:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

(6) Any understanding of Matthew 24 must conform to dispensational theology and the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth?

It's not dispensational theology, it's simply Bible Doctrine.

There is no reason in any interpretive effort of any other prophecy to spiritualize a set time. A thousand years is a thousand years. Even if one wanted to spiritualize it they cannot remove a time between the two Resurrections from Scripture.

And since Satan's binding corresponds to the events we must conclude that Satan is bound after Christ's Return, and when he is loosed he draws the wicked and they are both destroyed.

I appreciate the conversation. I understand this is very important to you. I simply disagree.

There is no need to continue with me. Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

I've enjoyed it.

Like I said before, I test first my own doctrine through these discussions. If there is a good argument against a position I hold to, I want to be the first one to hear it, lol.


God bless.

 

[AustinC]

Here's the passage in Matthew. Exegete.
Matthew 24:3-31
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall awayand betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Darrell C]

Here's the passage in Matthew. Exegete.

Already did that.

Read the thread.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Here's the passage in Matthew. Exegete.

Let's start with this:

LINK

Another issue we have to look at is the fact that when Prophecy is given, what is given isn't always fulfilled completely at the first fulfillment, which we would call a partial fulfillment.

Let me give you a couple examples of that. First, consider the prophecy concerning the prophesied Messiah. Do we not see that part of the prophecy was fulfilled at His First Coming and there is yet part of certain prophesies to be fulfilled? Here are the examples:


Zechariah 9:9-17 King James Version

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.


We understand the salvation in view is eternal salvation that the Lord brought. But the physical aspect of this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, and will not be until the Millennial Kingdom is established. Verse 9 corresponds to this:


Matthew 21:4-6 King James Version

4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,


Part of the Prophecy has been fulfilled, part has not. This is partial fulfillment in Prophecy. We see the same thing in Matthew 24: they will go into everlasting torment, but at the end of the Tribulation they do not go into Gehenna/Hell, they go into Hades and are not raised from the dead (the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were over) until the Second Resurrection of Revelation 20, the Great White Throne Judgment. The Great White Throne Judgment can be seen in Matthew 24, but it is not the specific event.


Here is another partial fulfillment during Christ's Day:


Luke 4:16-21 King James Version

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Now let's look at what was not fulfilled that day:


Fulfilled:

Isaiah 61 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


Unfulfilled:


Isaiah 61 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


This will be fulfilled through the Tribulation, which is the reminder of the Judgment against Israel, the Seventy Weeks, and judgment upon the Gentiles, for the "time of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled at that time:

Luke 21:24 KJV
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Note that this is found in a parallel teaching to Matthew 24:


Luke 21 KJV

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Note that the "desolation (of abomination)" has not taken place when Jerusalem is surrounded by enemies. It is "nigh."

Note that it is when the Abomination of Desolation takes place that Israel will flee into the mountains for 3 1/2 years (Revelation 12:1-6; Revelation 12:13-14).

And note especially v.22: The times Christ speak about in Mattthew 24 in regards to His Return are the Days of Veangeance, that all things which are written might be fulfilled.

And that is how Prophecy is always fulfilled. God will not leave unfulfilled that which He has declared He will do in His Word. When we eliminate important events from Prophecy and determine they aren't going to be fulfilled we have effectively taken away from the Word of God. And we are commanded not to do that.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Here's the passage in Matthew. Exegete.

So I have answered your challenge in advance, can you now show why the exegesis is flawed?

That's what discussion is, AustinC. Jumping from one argument to the next when it is shown to be in error isn't.

You have thus ignored the points already presented from exegetical efforts. Will you continue to do so, or answer my challenge in return?


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

His Second Coming, yes.

The Rapture, no. That is the point of pointing out the Scripture referring to His Return: both the wicked and believing are judged at His Return. Whereas in the First Resurrection we see only believers that have died raised to life again.

The wicked at that time, while they go into everlasting punishment, this everlasting punishment begins in Hades, not Gehenna/Hell.


Revelation 20:4-6 King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Secondly, we do not see a focus on the living believing here.

Third, the "trumpet" is not the Last Trumpet Judgment. There is clearly a period of time after the Seventh Trumpet Judgment sounds. This unleashes the Seven Bowl Judgments.

Consider:


Exodus 19:16-20 King James Version

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.


Here we have a trumpet calling the people of God out of the camp. But we are not come unto Mount Sinai, but unto the Heavenly Jerusalem in the Rapture. Christ doesn't return in the Rapture, we are taken out.

Here is a trumpet that is specific to the Tribulation:


Zechariah 9:14-17 King James Version

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

The reference to corn and alcohol again shows a physical kingdom after the Tribulation.

Here, Israel is the object of salvation, and that is physical salvation as well as eternal salvation (for only those born again will enter into that kingdom).

Now a "trumpet" relevant to the Rapture:


Revelation 4 King James Version

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


It is a voice "as if it were the voice of a trumpet."

Isn't that what we see in regard to the trumpet?


1 Thessalonians 4:16 King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


It is the Lord "shouting," calling His people out of the "camp," the "wilderness." And unlike the people of God at Sinai, we can go into the presence of God boldly based on Christ's Sacrifice.


Revelation 1:10-11 King James Version

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


It is "the last trump/et" because it is the sound that calls us out of this world.

Again, the Lord is never said to return in the Rapture, we are said to be called out. Snatched up.

In the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which takes place at the Lord's Return, it is the wicked that are "taken (out)" and the believers are left:


Matthew 24:27-28 King James Version

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Luke 17:34-37 King James Version

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The gathering of the eagles represents the carrion fowl that will feast upon the carcasses of the dead unbelievers. This is the Supper of the Great God, spoken of in Prophecy in both Old and New Testaments. This takes place at the end of the Tribulation, and it does not correspond to the Church being called out of the world.

And that is the problem that arises from trying to make the last trump the Seventh Trumpet Judgment: it just doesn't fit in with what we're told.


God bless.

I disagree and believe it stretches the meaning of these passages to support dispensation theology.

I have another passage of scripture I want you to consider. I have yet to have anyone who supports dispensation theology to address it in any meaningful way. Given your wide knowledge on this issue, perhaps you have an answer.

In Hebrews 7-8, Jesus is said to be a High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. He is presented as sitting at the right hand of the Father in Heaven making intercession on our behalf at this very moment. Additionally, His priesthood is said to be “unchangeable”.

In Hebrews 8:4, it says “if He were on the earth, He would not be a priest.”

So, how is it possible for Jesus to return to the earth for a thousand year reign when scripture says He currently has an “unchangeable” priesthood in heaven and that if He were on the earth, He would not be a priest?

And please, just stick to Hebrews 7-8. No need to post scripture from anywhere else.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

So I have answered your challenge in advance, can you now show why the exegesis is flawed?

That's what discussion is, AustinC. Jumping from one argument to the next when it is shown to be in error isn't.

You have thus ignored the points already presented from exegetical efforts. Will you continue to do so, or answer my challenge in return?


God bless.

I have seen no exegesis of the passage. Point me to the post number where you do that work.

 

[AustinC]

Let's start with this:



Another issue we have to look at is the fact that when Prophecy is given, what is given isn't always fulfilled completely at the first fulfillment, which we would call a partial fulfillment.

Let me give you a couple examples of that. First, consider the prophecy concerning the prophesied Messiah. Do we not see that part of the prophecy was fulfilled at His First Coming and there is yet part of certain prophesies to be fulfilled? Here are the examples:


Zechariah 9:9-17 King James Version

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.


We understand the salvation in view is eternal salvation that the Lord brought. But the physical aspect of this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, and will not be until the Millennial Kingdom is established. Verse 9 corresponds to this:


Matthew 21:4-6 King James Version

4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,


Part of the Prophecy has been fulfilled, part has not. This is partial fulfillment in Prophecy. We see the same thing in Matthew 24: they will go into everlasting torment, but at the end of the Tribulation they do not go into Gehenna/Hell, they go into Hades and are not raised from the dead (the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were over) until the Second Resurrection of Revelation 20, the Great White Throne Judgment. The Great White Throne Judgment can be seen in Matthew 24, but it is not the specific event.


Here is another partial fulfillment during Christ's Day:


Luke 4:16-21 King James Version

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Now let's look at what was not fulfilled that day:


Fulfilled:

Isaiah 61 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


Unfulfilled:


Isaiah 61 King James Version

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


This will be fulfilled through the Tribulation, which is the reminder of the Judgment against Israel, the Seventy Weeks, and judgment upon the Gentiles, for the "time of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled at that time:

Luke 21:24 KJV
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Note that this is found in a parallel teaching to Matthew 24:


Luke 21 KJV

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Note that the "desolation (of abomination)" has not taken place when Jerusalem is surrounded by enemies. It is "nigh."

Note that it is when the Abomination of Desolation takes place that Israel will flee into the mountains for 3 1/2 years (Revelation 12:1-6; Revelation 12:13-14).

And note especially v.22: The times Christ speak about in Mattthew 24 in regards to His Return are the Days of Veangeance, that all things which are written might be fulfilled.

And that is how Prophecy is always fulfilled. God will not leave unfulfilled that which He has declared He will do in His Word. When we eliminate important events from Prophecy and determine they aren't going to be fulfilled we have effectively taken away from the Word of God. And we are commanded not to do that.


God bless.

I am fully aware of dual prophetic fulfillment.
Matthew 24 has partial fulfillment in 70 CE at the destruction of Jerusalem and future fulfillment at the return of Jesus to reign as King.

 

[Darrell C]

I disagree and believe it stretches the meaning of these passages to support dispensation theology.

I'm not sure why. I am simply bringing all of the passages to the table that are relevant.
To recap a few points that you should at least give consideration to: the Church is caught up in the rapture, whereas in the Return of Christ they are "left."

In the Rapture both living and dead believers are glorified, the dead before the living; in the First Resurrection only the (believing) dead are raised.

There are two resurrections in Revelation whether you want to deny the thousand years or not.

There is a 75-day extension to the end of the Tribulation which shows this isn't the end of the world as expressed in Revelation 20:11.

Christ gathers only the church in the Rapture (with the voice of the angel and sound of a trump), whereas at the end of the tribulation angels gather both believing and unbelieving for the Sheep and Goat Judgment.

The Great White Throne Judgment does not take place at the First Resurrection.

Christ's description of the Return is one of judgment, likened to the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrha. This is of complete description as in the two examples.

Those "taken" in the Return are destroyed completely leaving only the righteous/just/saved/born-again. Those taken in the Rapture are glorified.


When we look at all relevant passages the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only view that maintains the harmony of Prophecy. All other views have problems such as the ones listed above.

Would you at least consider that prior to the Great White Throne Judgment there is a great multitude of unbelievers that are destroyed along with Satan? And that this isn't over a period of time, but immediate (fire from Heaven)?

I will address the second part of your question.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I have another passage of scripture I want you to consider. I have yet to have anyone who supports dispensation theology to address it in any meaningful way. Given your wide knowledge on this issue, perhaps you have an answer.

In Hebrews 7-8, Jesus is said to be a High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. He is presented as sitting at the right hand of the Father in Heaven making intercession on our behalf at this very moment. Additionally, His priesthood is said to be “unchangeable”.

In Hebrews 8:4, it says “if He were on the earth, He would not be a priest.”

So, how is it possible for Jesus to return to the earth for a thousand year reign when scripture says He currently has an “unchangeable” priesthood in heaven and that if He were on the earth, He would not be a priest?

And please, just stick to Hebrews 7-8. No need to post scripture from anywhere else.

peace to you

I'm not sure what you mean by "meaningful," lol.

You have to admit that I have tried to bring forth numerous passages and points as to why I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and why I see other views as in conflict of Scripture. And yet it does not seem you will cede a single point. One, for example, is that it is impossible to deny a time period between the First Resurrection and the Great White Throne. One can spiritualize the thousand years despite the fact that Christ's rule corresponds to the binding of Satan, but there are clearly two resurrections described. And this means nothing, apparently. And you have not yourself ventured a reason why this is not true that I can recall in the discussion.

So will anything be good enough? That is likely why you have never heard a "meaningful" answer.

But I appreciate the question, Canadyjd. I love questions as you might have noticed already, lol.

In Hebrews 8:4, it says “if He were on the earth, He would not be a priest.”

So, how is it possible for Jesus to return to the earth for a thousand year reign when scripture says He currently has an “unchangeable” priesthood in heaven and that if He were on the earth, He would not be a priest?

And please, just stick to Hebrews 7-8. No need to post scripture from anywhere else.

peace to you

One reason you may have never received a "meaningful answer is the exclusion of all relevant passages. You can't "stick to Hebrews 7-8" and draw final conclusions. Just as you can't stick to Matthew 24 and draw reasonable conclusions concerning the Return and the Rapture.

While I am confident I could give an answer, I don't think it would be enough. Not for me, anyway.

Notice in the beginning of Chapter Seven it has a particular word it begins with:


Hebrews 7 King James Version

7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;


We need to know what the word "for" is here for. It is there because the Writer has not yet changed his subject and this is part of what he was already teaching on:


Hebrews 6:17-20 King James Version

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


So the points I would make so far are these:

1. Melchisadec is given as an example. Many try to make Melchisadec a "pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. I reject a physical pre-incarnate appearance because while the Son of God is Eternal God, the Creator, Jesus Christ has a beginning in time: God created His Body in the womb of Mary roughly 2,000 years ago. We call the prophecy of Messiah Prophecy because it foretells what is going to happen, not what has happened, nor what is happening. Scripture clearly distinguishes between the time when Christ was not in the world and when He came. So the first point is Melchisedec is not Christ and does not lend credence to the view that Christ has always been around. The SOn of God has, to be sure, but the ministry of Messiah has a beginning in time.

2. The two statements cannot be separated:


20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;


The imagery of a fore-runner is probably familiar to you: it has been described as a small dinghy sent from a ship to help secure a line that will help guide the ship in safely. I'll be honest, I can't verify that, but at least the imagery gives an idea to what I think is being said here: Christ has gone into Heaven and we are tied to Him, and He will guide us into "port."


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

3. To keep this as short as possible, this will be the last point for this section, but probably the answer to your question, in my opinion: Jesus, Who is God manifest in the flesh, was "made" a High Priest. Made a High Priest, not, has always been our High Priest. So we see again a point in time that is a beginning.

First, we confirm that Melchisedec was not Christ:


Hebrews 7 King James Version

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.


This is basically saying "there is no available information on Melchisedec." We know Christ was not "without mother and father," for Mary was His mother, and God was His Father. He was made like unto the Son of God (not like unto Jesus Christ), but was not the Son of God, only an example used by the Writer.


6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.


14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.


Melchisedec is not of the bloodline from which Christ was prophesied to come, thus cannot be Christ or the Son of God. Those two points should be enough to deny a mystical view that Melchisedec was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. Christ is said to have a Father and mother, and we know His lineage in regards to His humanity.


11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Here we see an equally conclusive point (in my view): the Priesthood that was in force was changed. When the Covenant of Law became obsolete the Priesthood was changed. While it is said to be after the order of Melchisedec, it is not said to be the order of Melchisedec. The Priesthood of Melchisedec had no force under the Law, which was the prescribed method of relationship with God. The Levitical Priesthood, not the priesthood of Melchisedec, changed from their service being accepted to that of Christ's. Christ's Priesthood is tied to His death. That is the Sacrifice that was offered, contrasted to the sacrifices of the Law (vicarious animal death in the stead of the sinner), and that is the service contrasted to the service of the Levitical Priesthood. There is no salvific tone to the offerings of Abraham to Melchisedec. Christ is likened to Melchisedec because Melchisedec was a king and a priest.

The point is this: Christ's Priesthood is different.


15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,


"After the similitude." Like Melchisedec, but not Melchisedec. Secondly, we see "there ariseth another Priest."


18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.


19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Again we see the contrast is between the Law and Christ. The Law could not make perfect, that is, make one complete in regards to remission of sins (the reason for the offering of sacrifice). Nowhere in Scripture do we see any Sacrifice or Priesthood or service that brings Remission of Sin in completion (making one perfect in regard to remission of sin) except for Christ's Sacrifice.

And we see when His Sacrifice took place.

So this point stands alone, in my view, making it clear that Christ's Priesthood has a beginning in time. Just as a Testament (Covenant) has no power until the Testator dies, even so the New Covenant and Christ's Priesthood had no power until Christ actually died. Again, that is why we call the prophecy of Messiah Prophecy. The Prophecy spoke of what would happen when Messiah came. His Priesthood has a beginning in time, and that service began with our HIgh Priest making an offering unto God: Himself.

So thus far I have tried to establish one point that has to be considered when we get to the temporal aspect of your question, and I will address that in the next post.


Continued...