The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[canadyjd]

I dismissed nothing…..
God bless.

…
Here is how you responded to Matthew 24 and other passages….

Already addressed and dismissed…..
God bless.

You literally use the word “dismissed” concerning Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 definitive. AFTER the tribulation, The trumpet sounds, Christ returns in the sky, the Angels collect the saints, the judgement occurs in heaven and eternal life with God.

You have “dismissed” the very clear teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just saying the words “already addressed and dismissed” doesn’t really address the passage.

Unless you can address Matthew 24 in some reasonable way, the rest of your interpretations will remain questionable.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I have shown the differences between the judgments, what more can I do?

If you won't take Scripture's Word for it, why would I think you would take mine?

You simply verify that you cannot address the points, Canadyjd.

The "Last Trumpet" of Revelation that you would make the "last trump" of the Rapture has been shown to be not only a weak argument but a ridiculous argument.

The differences in the Trumpet Judgments and the Bowl/Vial Judgments show a chronological timeline, lol.

God bless.

To understand Revelation you must realize a couple of key points. First, John does not write in chronological order. Second, when John is taken into heaven he is witnessing the The Last Judgment.

In Roman culture (which everyone who heard Revelation would recognize) the judgement seat was a huge event. Sometimes even the emperor would sit in Judgement. In Revelation God sits in judgement.

There were two types of cases that required 7 seals. They were last will and testament and death penalty cases. Only specific people had the authority to break the seals to reveal the contents. In this case, only Jesus could open the seals.

The scrolls would have a tiny summary of the contents of each section. The full contents would be read when the seal was broken.

John reveals the summaries of each section then comes back to reveal the contents once the seals are broken. This scene fits well with his writing style of repeated themes. The apocalyptic nature of this section is full of symbolism without question.

Concerning Revelation 20 and the “1000 year reign”, you are misreading the context of the passage. It does not say Christ reigns on earth for 1000 years. It says the martyrs that died for the cause of Christ will reign WITH Christ for a 1000 years as a reward for their faithfulness. Christ reigns in heaven for eternity.

This understanding of Revelation 20 is consistent with the plain reading of Matthew 24 and other passages.

There is no pre-tribulation rapture. There is no 1000 year earthly reign. There is no separate future for Jews and Gentiles. There is no rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem where Jesus will rule.

All you espouse is contrary to the plain reading of scripture which, by your own words, “dismiss” without even attempting to explain.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

There shall be many who were not "saved" who shall enter into the Kingdom Age!

Sorry, no.

Only those born again will enter into the Kingdom of God.

Period.

You are welcome to find a proof text and present it.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You literally use the word “dismissed” concerning Matthew 24.

I literally used the word dismissed concerning the doctrine and comment/s:

37818 said: ↑
1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.


What is "dismissed," Canadyjd, is the argument that "the last trump" of the Rapture is the Last Trumpet Judgment. You will have to read the posts to understand what is being discussed.

Matthew 24 definitive. AFTER the tribulation, The trumpet sounds, Christ returns in the sky, the Angels collect the saints, the judgement occurs in heaven and eternal life with God.

That doesn't make the last trump to be the Last Trumpet Judgment, lol.

The Last Trumpet Judgment is the unleashing of the Bowl/Vial judgments. What this means, Canadyjd, is that if you seek to make them one and the same you have just become a Mid-Tribulational believer.

The Last Trumpet Judgment doesn't take place at the end of the Tribulation, but within it.

Consider:


Revelation 16:12 King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.


Do you understand the implication of this judgment? It shows that there is still time after this takes place.

The way of the kings of the east is prepared at this time, meaning that the coming of the kings of the east hasn't taken place yet.

Because you deny a chronological order, and deny the consistency in fulfillment of Prophecy, you simply cannot understand the book of Revelation. How many times have you read the book, Canadyjd?

My suggestion is just sit down and read it several times. This is how we gain an understanding of Scripture: we read it. Pray that God will open your eyes to the truth. If the position you hold now is truth, great, you will be able to correct me in the position I hold to. If what you believe now is not true, then have the good sense to let it go.


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[robycop3]

It's new and brutally tied to the terrible theory of dispensationalism, which butchers scripture in its choppiness. If this is what you desire, you are free to do so. As for myself, I wake up everyday knowing I walk in faith to the moment Christ takes me home, either in death, or when the war trumpet sounds and the Commander of the Lord's Army comes to avenge my brother's and sister's who were martyred for the faith. Then comes the second destruction of the earth by fire and the creation of the earth for eternal life of the saints in newness.

I'm not a dispy, & I'm plainly going by Scripture, as you should be able to see.

 

[Darrell C]

You have “dismissed” the very clear teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, sorry, no.

I have dismissed an impossible argument held by Post-Tribulational believers.

They think it's a viable argument because the men they follow think it is, but they have not compared the argument with what Scripture actually teaches.

Just saying the words “already addressed and dismissed” doesn’t really address the passage.

I agree, but it does dismiss the argument. Especially when it is given over and over.

And over, and over, and over ...

Repeating something doesn't make it true, nor does it make it valid.

That is what we might look at as insanity.

What dismisses the argument is the address to the argument. Perhaps you should read it.

Unless you can address Matthew 24 in some reasonable way, the rest of your interpretations will remain questionable.

Been there, done that:

If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation then there are no physical believers left to populate the world and produce the offspring that is killed just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment:


Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Secondly, the "Sheep" of the Sheep and Goat judgment are not glorified, but are "left:"


Luke 17:26-37 King James Version

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


When the Son of Man Returns, according to His Own Word, we will see complete destruction of the wicked, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot.

He destroyed them all.

One shall be taken, and one left. Where are they taken? He just told you: they are taken in judgment. They are destroyed.

Hence the Supper of the Great God.

If we interpret Prophecy as it has always been interpreted it is really very easy to understand. But when we try to make Scripture something other than what it is, revelation provided to men that we might know the Lord's will and what is going to happen, then we end up stumbling over our doctrine.

Like you and other Post-Tribulational believers do.

If you read the thread you will see why I can dismiss these arguments. Trying to say I am dismissing the Scripture that is relevant to the argument cannot be seen in the conversation of the thread itself.

peace to you

And to you, Candyjd.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

To understand Revelation you must realize a couple of key points. First, John does not write in chronological order.

Or, consult gotquestions so men can tell you what it is you are supposed to believe, lol.

John certainly writes in chronological order. Anyone who has read the book can see that, unless they are trying to make Scripture fit their system of theology and Hermeneutics.

Let me ask you this: Does the second seal follow the first?

Is John caught up after Christ appears to him?

Does Christ return after the events of the tribulation described?

Does the Great White Throne follow the First Resurrection?


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[Darrell C]

To understand Revelation you must realize a couple of key points. First, John does not write in chronological order.

Does the Great White Throne follow the First Resurrection?

Please answer this.


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[Darrell C]

Second, when John is taken into heaven he is witnessing the The Last Judgment.

He is?

Perhaps you would define what you mean by Last Judgment?


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[Darrell C]

In Roman culture (which everyone who heard Revelation would recognize) the judgement seat was a huge event.

So you do not view the events of the Tribulation as judgment?

And you do not distinguish this from the Great White Throne Judgment?


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[Darrell C]

Sometimes even the emperor would sit in Judgement. In Revelation God sits in judgement.

And in that judgment (singular) there are judgments (plural).

The first we identify is God's judgment on the earth:

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


This refers to the judgment that takes place in the Tribulation. It is clear that though the earth is judged, and men die, it is not the "last" judgment:


Revelation 20:11-15 King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


See the chronology?

This is the last judgment, and it does not take place during the Tribulation. At this point the existing heavens and earth (universe) have passed away.


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[Darrell C]

There were two types of cases that required 7 seals. They were last will and testament and death penalty cases. Only specific people had the authority to break the seals to reveal the contents. In this case, only Jesus could open the seals.

And ...?

Roman culture doesn't dictate interpretation of Revelation, lol. Certainly we include a historical context, but you have to keep in mind this is the Seventieth Week, and this judgment pertains to Daniel's People, Israel:


Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


It is also called ...


Jeremiah 30 King James Version

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,

2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.


... the time of Jacob's trouble.

It is relevant, first, to the Jews, and then secondly to the world. Antichrist will head up the last Empire ...


Revelation 17:9-11 King James Version

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


Five are fallen: Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Medo-Persia, and Greece.

One is: Rome (present at the time of the writing).

The other is not yet to come: the empire that Antichrist takes over.

The eighth: Antichrist is the eighth king, deposing those who rule the Empire taken over by Antichrist as led by Antichrist. He is of the Seven Empires.

Now, let's see a little more chronology:


Revelation 11 King James Version

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.



Revelation 13 King James Version

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


That these two periods are not concurrent is evident in the fact that they cannot be hurt while they minister.

Antichrist is given 3 1/2 years also and begins his unveiled reign of terror by killing them.

Now, here is the question: does this take place prior to Christ's Return?

If you say yes, then you are acknowledging the chronology of the events in Revelation.

Understand?


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[Darrell C]

The scrolls would have a tiny summary of the contents of each section. The full contents would be read when the seal was broken.

And they are unsealed one at a time, no?

Again we see a chronological order of events.


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[Darrell C]

John reveals the summaries of each section then comes back to reveal the contents once the seals are broken. This scene fits well with his writing style of repeated themes. The apocalyptic nature of this section is full of symbolism without question.

What ineffable twaddle, lol.

I showed in two posts the distinctive differences between the Trumpet and Bowl/Vial Judgments.

Each one is a separate judgment.

I would agree figurative language is used, but it is used, as it always is in Prophecy—to present truths concerning what is going to take place.

This is by far the very worst approach to Revelation one can take.

The idea that John is merely expounding on the Seal Judgments cannot be seen by any serious Bible Student.


Revelation 8:7 King James Version

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 16 King James Version

16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


So show how this is the First Seal Judgment:


Revelation 6 King James Version

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


The first Seal Judgment shows someone on a white horse (which most of us view as Antichrist) going out to conquer.

Whereas the first Trumpet and Bowl Judgment show ...


Revelation 8:7 King James Version

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 16 King James Version

16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


... hail falling on the earth mingled with blood in the first Trumpet and a completely different judgment of sores upon men in the first Bowl Judgment.

Do you seriously not see the difference and the chronology?

Or do you simply refuse to acknowledge it because it shows your system of theology and your hermeneutic approach are in error, and your pride overweighs your loyalty to the Word of God?


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[Darrell C]

Concerning Revelation 20 and the “1000 year reign”, you are misreading the context of the passage.

On the contrary, I am simply reading it as it is given.

This is how Prophecy is always understood. We look first at the statement, then we determine if there is figurative language. Then we determine what the figurative language represents.

A dragon is used to represent Satan, as is a serpent. He is neither, but he is a real entity of Scripture. Your approach would conclude there is no Satan because he is described with figurative language.

Christ is called The Lamb of God. He is not a lamb, but the phrase describes His Sacrificial Offering.

Satan is called a roaring lion, describing his prowling on the earth.

Figurative language doesn't cancel out the truth being taught. You just have to interpret it properly to understand what is being taught.

So trying to dismiss what is taught in Revelation because it is figurative is absurd. Trying to say I have misread the context is equally absurd. Post the Scripture and point where I did that. Then we can examine it.

I have posted the Scripture showing that the last trump of the Rapture can't possibly be the Seventh Trumpet Judgment, and you say I misread the context. Putting the Seventh Trumpet Judgment at the end of the Tribulation is failing to even bother to read Revelation.

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[Darrell C]

It does not say Christ reigns on earth for 1000 years.

In point of fact, it does:


Revelation 20:1-6 King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


First, even if you spiritualize the thousand years seen here (and there is nowhere in Scripture a specific time is spiritualized away to mean a timeframe different that that stated), you still cannot remove that there is a time frame between events.

That is the chronology of the passage.

Tribulation, then Christ's Return, the binding of Satan, the resurrection of the Tribulation Martys, and then after that timeframe—the passing away of the current universe and the Great White Throne.

That is the chronological order given in Scripture. No amount of commentary is going to change that.

Secondly, we see that the Tribulational Martyrs reign with Christ for one thousand years.

Are you saying Christ isn't going to reign for one thousand years? That is what it states here in Scripture.

If I said Canadyjd is going to ride with Darrell C for three hours, would Darrel C be riding also?


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[Darrell C]

It says the martyrs that died for the cause of Christ will reign WITH Christ for a 1000 years as a reward for their faithfulness. Christ reigns in heaven for eternity.

And the implication in their reigning is that Christ is reigning, Canadyjd.

This understanding of Revelation 20 is consistent with the plain reading of Matthew 24 and other passages.

I agree: they will reign with Christ during the Millennial Kingdom.

That is the thousand years referred to repeatedly in Revelation 20.

And there is no Rapture at the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs—they rule on earth with Christ.

In the Rapture we are caught up. Just as the Two Witnesses are caught up in the middle of the Tribulation.


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[Darrell C]

There is no pre-tribulation rapture.

Of course there is, lol.

It can't possibly happen at the end of the Tribulation.

Whether you believe Scripture when it says Christ will reign for one thousand years or not, if you deny there are two resurrections in Revelation 20 you are simply not being honest.

The First Resurrection involves only the Tribulation Martys—the Rapture involves both the living and dead in Christ.

The resurrection that follows the thousand years involves both the living and the dead. The just and the unjust.

Two separate events which establish a chronological fulfillment.


Continue...

 

[Darrell C]

There is no 1000 year earthly reign.

Sure there is:


Revelation 20:1-6 King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


That you would reject what Scripture states plainly in favor of the doctrines of men is very disturbing.


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[Darrell C]

There is no separate future for Jews and Gentiles.

I already agreed with that: there will be, in the Eternal State, One Fold and One Shepherd.

There is no rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem where Jesus will rule.

Of course there will be, lol.


2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 King James Version

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Revelation 11:1-3 King James Version

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


Is the Temple of God in Heaven to be given over to Gentiles?


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