The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[AustinC]

I know the posts seem long, but that is due to spacing and sizing. It takes but a few minutes to read them.

We cannot come to reasonable conclusions without looking at the relevant Scriptures.

That takes time and diligence. But isn't the end result worth it?


God bless.

The end is worth it if you grasp that there is no rapture of the saints before the Tribulation. Your proof texting is unconvincing. It's a theory that is basically concocted in the US and then forced upon the Bible. It's less than 150 years old in theory, yet you can't imagine how the saints before this (and more importantly the seven churches) didn't follow your view.
Feel free to hold to this young theory,but know the majority of Christianity doesn't hold your opinion.

 

[37818]

"First" is a reference to type, rather than sequence.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 is not correctly believed. It must not exclude Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[37818]

The "last days" are already happening, and have been for centuries:

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Would you agree this is a reference to the concept of "the last days?"

Consider:

Joel 2:10 King James Version

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:


Sound familiar? So let's look at the Day of the Lord, and the Lord's Return (though the Old Testament Saints only knew about one Coming, just as they only knew about one Resurrection):


Joel 2 King James Version

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.


This is an Old Testament Reference to the Coming Christ refers to in His teachings.

See if this sounds familiar:


10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:


It should:

Matthew 24:29-31 King James Version

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Same terminology and event, right? This is to take place during the Tribulation, not after.

Tribulation-Return of Christ-then a trumpet.

But we're not done yet. Let's continue in Joel:



11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Still the Day of the Lord. Here we see Christ has an army.


Revelation 19:11-14 King James Version

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Nothing has changed in the timeline of Prophecy:

Tribulation-Return of Christ-Millennial Kingdom...



23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.


24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.


25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.


26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.


27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.


But wait, looks like there's another event on the timeline:


28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.


31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.


32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.


Do you see two Comings in Prophecy?

Probably not, because it will not fit into a Post-Tribulational view.

But that is precisely what Scripture teaches.

Here, just as in Revelation, we have The Tribulation, the Return of Christ, the Millennial Kingdom, and then—The Return of Christ.

As I said, those who embrace the Pre-Tribulation Rapture can leave Prophecy as it is given and do not have to scramble to try to reconcile the problems that view creates. Whereas some might view short posts as a good thing, to me it denotes laziness and an inability to defend one's position.

And so far you have not addressed a single point and denied the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Whereas I have just shown you just one reason why your timeline is in error.

As stated in the OP, those who hold to the Post-Tribulational Rapture must blot out Scripture. You are blotting out the thousand years in Revelation 20. Do not add or take away. Because if you do, you will never get it right.


Continued...

There is only one first resurrection. Only one "the" last trumpet. There is only one second appearing. And Jesus called it the last day.

 

[37818]

There is one last Trump for the Church, there is one last Trumpet Judgment, and the Last Trumpet Judgment—is not at the end of the Tribulation.

1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

 

[Darrell C]

The end is worth it if you grasp that there is no rapture of the saints before the Tribulation. Your proof texting is unconvincing. It's a theory that is basically concocted in the US and then forced upon the Bible. It's less than 150 years old in theory, yet you can't imagine how the saints before this (and more importantly the seven churches) didn't follow your view.
Feel free to hold to this young theory,but know the majority of Christianity doesn't hold your opinion.

Like I said, no response. Simply a reiteration of opinion.

The Pre--Tribulational Rapture is a First Century teaching of Paul. We can't help it if some people but into the doctrines of men and sound Doctrine becomes obscure.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

1 Thessalonians 4:15 is not correctly believed. It must not exclude Revelation 20:4-6.

That is why this discussion has begun with Revelation 20:1-6.

Did you not read it? Or did you stop at the point where it disagreed with what you want to believe?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

There is only one first resurrection. Only one "the" last trumpet. There is only one second appearing. And Jesus called it the last day.

The OP makes it clear that there are three resurrections in Revelation.

And that there is a rapture prior to the "First Resurrection of Revelation 20.

And that there is a third resurrection after the thousand-year reign of Christ.

Please read the OP, then comment.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Already addressed and dismissed.

This is why the Post-Tribulational view is built on sand: nothing to stand on in that doctrine.

Are you reading any of the responses? They demand an answer. You won't be able to give one, but they still demand an answer.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Your proof texting is unconvincing.

At least I have Scripture that accompanies my view.

Where is yours?

Where is the address to my own address of your position?

Just answer this: do you believe there will be a thousand-year reign of Christ as Revelation states?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Just answer this: do you believe there will be a thousand-year reign of Christ as Revelation states?


God bless.

 

[Van]

I guess one could view it as parenthetical, but it remains relevant to the text.

God bless.

I said the parenthetical nature of the thought meant that "this is the first resurrection" applied to verse 4 (and incidentally verse 6.)
Obviously since those raised rule with Christ for 1000 years, they were raised before the 1000 year reign.

 

[Darrell C]

I said the parenthetical nature of the thought meant that "this is the first resurrection" applied to verse 4 (and incidentally verse 6.)
Obviously since those raised rule with Christ for 1000 years, they were raised before the 1000 year reign.

Okay, now I see what you mean, and agree.

Excellent point.


God bless.

 

[robycop3]

The end is worth it if you grasp that there is no rapture of the saints before the Tribulation. Your proof texting is unconvincing. It's a theory that is basically concocted in the US and then forced upon the Bible. It's less than 150 years old in theory, yet you can't imagine how the saints before this (and more importantly the seven churches) didn't follow your view.
Feel free to hold to this young theory,but know the majority of Christianity doesn't hold your opinion.

For over a thousand years, people held Ptolemy's theory that the universe revolved around a flat earth. Then came evidence that the earth is a sphere & it revolves around the sun. Which is right?

Same for pre-trib rapture. As I've said several times, Rev. 3:10 firmly establishes that fact. While it's a relatively new doctrine, it's a CORRECT one.

 

[JesusFan]

So admit it, it's a favorite issue to debate.

Being called a "dispy" in another thread sure brought back the old days, and it made me think, well, there's nothing for it but to start another thread examining the Rapture and when it is going to take place.

So I will just state that the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is the only view that leaves Scripture intact (meaning we don't have to spiritualize Scripture away) and doesn't leave one trying to work out the problems that a Mid or Post view creates. As far as those who do not embrace that the Rapture is taught in Scripture, you are welcome as well, but it's going to be a little hard to take you seriously.

As an introductory presentation I would like to draw your attention first to the subject of Resurrection, and one of the arguments presented by Post-Trib brethren: "the Rapture cannot take place prior to the end of the Tribulation because the "First Resurrection doesn't take place until the end of the Tribulation."


Revelation 20:1-6 King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Is this the first resurrection?

Not at all. In a context of sequence the First Resurrection (unto life) is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The second is the Pre-tribulation Rapture (and hopefully you will understand this before this thread expires).

The third?

Revelation 11 King James Version

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Kind of hard for the first Resurrection of Revelation 20 to the first one in a context of sequence, isn't it?

Particularly when the Two Witnesses are raptured right smack dab in the middle of the Tribulation (and for those who do not embrace a seven year Seventieth Week, please see Daniel 12 where there are 75 days added to the 3 1/2 year period that begins with the abomination of desolation, which itself begins at the end of the 3 1/2 year ministry of the Two Witnesses).


The word "first" found in verses 5 and 6 is translated from the word prōtos. Strong's Concordance states:

prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.

It is used in contexts involving sequence, and it is used in contexts involving rank. A few examples of a context of rank (all verses KJV):


Matthew 20:27
And whosoever will be chief (G4413) among you, let him be your servant:

Mark 6:21
And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief (G4413) estates of Galilee;

Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first (G4413) commandment.

Luke 15:22
But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best (G4413) robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:


The Lord made the statement, "But many that are first (G4413) shall be last; and the last shall be first (G4413)." Here we see both sequence and rank. Those that came first (sequentially) will be last (in terms of rank), and those that are last (sequentially) shall be first (in terms of rank). So too, in Revelation 20, there is no need to demand a context of sequence to first, but to see that it is the type of resurrection that is indicated. To put it into easily understandable terms, the "first resurrection" is the resurrection of life, and "the second resurrection" is the resurrection unto damnation. The first resurrection is contrasted with the Second Death. Again, the "first resurrection" in terms of sequence is none other than the Resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 26:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


Daniel 12 taught of a resurrection:

Daniel 12:1-2 King James Version

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


When the rich young ruler asked how he could obtain eternal life, this is likely what was key in his thoughts.

So, as a first argument, I suggest that denying a Pre-Trib Rapture based on "the first resurrection" of Revelation 20 isn't going to work. The Tribulation Martyrs that are raised in the first resurerction could be glorified, but it's equally possible—since there will be an extended lifespan among men in that Age (Isaiah 65:20)—that they will simply live long lives as they did when God first created the earth. The Regeneration Christ spoke of here in this passage...

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

... will fulfill the Prophecy spoken of in the Old Testament among God's promises of restoration of the Nation of Israel.

So whether there is a Rapture concerning the Tribulation Martyrs is not something I would be overly dogmatic about. I lean towards the view that they are glorified at this time. But if they aren't there is nothing that keeps them from simply living long lives.

So that is just a beginning to a discussion about the Rapture. In the course of the discussion I think some will be surprised at some of the passages that must be considered to come to a reasonable conclusion on this most wonderful source of hope for the believer.

God bless

The prominent eschatological viewpoint held in the early Church seemed to be the historical ptemil view, and A mil came in big time under the teaching of Augustine, while the pretrib rapture per say was not seen until time of darby and others...

The passage stating that we have not been appointed unto wrath is used by many to support pretrib, but that seems to have in mind the wrath of the Lord laid upon those who have rejected Lord Jesus in final judgement, not during tribulation period, and we shall be protected and preserved by God in end times from his wrath being poured out upon earth, but still will suffer wrath of man towards us!

 

[AustinC]

For over a thousand years, people held Ptolemy's theory that the universe revolved around a flat earth. Then came evidence that the earth is a sphere & it revolves around the sun. Which is right?

Same for pre-trib rapture. As I've said several times, Rev. 3:10 firmly establishes that fact. While it's a relatively new doctrine, it's a CORRECT one.

It's new and brutally tied to the terrible theory of dispensationalism, which butchers scripture in its choppiness. If this is what you desire, you are free to do so. As for myself, I wake up everyday knowing I walk in faith to the moment Christ takes me home, either in death, or when the war trumpet sounds and the Commander of the Lord's Army comes to avenge my brother's and sister's who were martyred for the faith. Then comes the second destruction of the earth by fire and the creation of the earth for eternal life of the saints in newness.

 

[canadyjd]

The OP makes it clear that there are three resurrections in Revelation.

And that there is a rapture prior to the "First Resurrection of Revelation 20.

And that there is a third resurrection after the thousand-year reign of Christ.

Please read the OP, then comment.


God bless.

John writes in repeated themes, not chronological order.

Matthew 24 clearly, in the words of Jesus our Lord, states AFTER the tribulation, the trumpet sounds, He appears in the sky, the Angels collect the saints and then comes judgement followed immediately by His eternal reign in heaven.

I’m amazed that you spent so much effort in the other scripture but dismissed this one out of hand.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

The prominent eschatological viewpoint held in the early Church seemed to be the historical ptemil view, and A mil came in big time under the teaching of Augustine, while the pretrib rapture per say was not seen until time of darby and others...

The passage stating that we have not been appointed unto wrath is used by many to support pretrib, but that seems to have in mind the wrath of the Lord laid upon those who have rejected Lord Jesus in final judgement, not during tribulation period, and we shall be protected and preserved by God in end times from his wrath being poured out upon earth, but still will suffer wrath of man towards us!

Did you use to use the member name Yeshua1?

Your posting is identical to his.

Address the OP. Address the points of the OP and following posts.

With Scripture, not opinions and regurgitated nonsensical arguments that have already been addressed and dismissed.

If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation then there are no physical believers left to populate the world and produce the offspring that is killed just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment:


Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Secondly, the "Sheep" of the Sheep and Goat judgment are not glorified, but are "left:"


Luke 17:26-37 King James Version

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


When the Son of Man Returns, according to His Own Word, we will see complete destruction of the wicked, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot.

He destroyed them all.

One shall be taken, and one left. Where are they taken? He just told you: they are taken in judgment. They are destroyed.

Hence the Supper of the Great God.

If we interpret Prophecy as it has always been interpreted it is really very easy to understand. But when we try to make Scripture something other than what it is, revelation provided to men that we might know the Lord's will and what is going to happen, then we end up stumbling over our doctrine.

Like you and other Post-Tribulational believers do.

Again, are you Yeshua1?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

John writes in repeated themes, not chronological order.

Matthew 24 clearly, in the words of Jesus our Lord, states AFTER the tribulation, the trumpet sounds, He appears in the sky, the Angels collect the saints and then comes judgement followed immediately by His eternal reign in heaven.

I’m amazed that you spent so much effort in the other scripture but dismissed this one out of hand.

peace to you

I dismissed nothing.

Perhaps you simply could not understand how this was addressed.

Here it again, address the points made:

There is one last Trump for the Church, there is one last Trumpet Judgment, and the Last Trumpet Judgment—is not at the end of the Tribulation.

Again we see a defense of the Post-Tribulation Rapture has to blot out Scripture.

Those who try to equate the judgments have obviously not bothered to read Revelation. If they had, they would see that the judgments are significantly different. Enough to make clear they are not the same judgments described different ways.

Revelation 8:7-13 King James Version

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 16 King James Version

16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16 King James Version

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Revelation 16 King James Version

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.



12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 16 King James Version

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.


I guess I should point out here that there is a difference between an angel sounding and an angel pouring.



So far we see a clear difference. The next Trumpet is going to take up some room, but it only takes a few minutes to read this entire post. I would think someone who is a serious Bible Student would be interested in knowing how their position stands or falls. I know I do.

I am going to continue here, because the Fifth Vial Judgment has a direct correlation to Joel 2, and I don't want to give anyone an excuse to ignore this argument because it is "too long." Again, it only takes a couple minutes to read these.

Picking up where we left off ...

Revelation 9 King James Version

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

Revelation 16 King James Version

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


Not only is there a difference between sounding and pouring, but there is a difference between a Trumpet and a Bowl/Vial.

We do see a similar judgment as we see in the Fifth Trumpet Judgment, but this is the first one that has such a closeness. Shall we forget the difference between the others and conclude concurrency?

Let's look back at Joel:

Joel 2:4-6 King James Version

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.


Revelation 9 King James Version

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,


14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.


15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.


16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.


Revelation 16 King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


In the Sixth Trumpet Judgment, we see four angels/demons loosed. and in the Sixth Vial/Bowl Judgment we see three. Quite a difference.

And I would like to make a comparison between the Seventh Trumpet Judgment and the Seventh Bowl Judgment, but I can't, because the Seventh Trumpet Judgment is the Seven Bowl Judgment/s.

The final Bowl Judgment:


Revelation 16:17-18 King James Version

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


So the idea that the Seventh Trumpet Judgment—which takes place during the Tribulation— is the "last trump Paul speaks of just doesn't work out. If it was correlated to the Rapture of the Church then we would have grounds for the Mid-Tribulation view, which, as I said in the OP, also has problems.

So in regards to ...



... this is simply not correct.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

John writes in repeated themes, not chronological order.

Matthew 24 clearly, in the words of Jesus our Lord, states AFTER the tribulation, the trumpet sounds, He appears in the sky, the Angels collect the saints and then comes judgement followed immediately by His eternal reign in heaven.

I’m amazed that you spent so much effort in the other scripture but dismissed this one out of hand.

peace to you

I have shown the differences between the judgments, what more can I do?

If you won't take Scripture's Word for it, why would I think you would take mine?

You simply verify that you cannot address the points, Canadyjd.

The "Last Trumpet" of Revelation that you would make the "last trump" of the Rapture has been shown to be not only a weak argument but a ridiculous argument.

The differences in the Trumpet Judgments and the Bowl/Vial Judgments show a chronological timeline, lol.


God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

Did you use to use the member name Yeshua1?

Your posting is identical to his.

Address the OP. Address the points of the OP and following posts.

With Scripture, not opinions and regurgitated nonsensical arguments that have already been addressed and dismissed.

If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation then there are no physical believers left to populate the world and produce the offspring that is killed just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment:


Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Secondly, the "Sheep" of the Sheep and Goat judgment are not glorified, but are "left:"


Luke 17:26-37 King James Version

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


When the Son of Man Returns, according to His Own Word, we will see complete destruction of the wicked, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot.

He destroyed them all.

One shall be taken, and one left. Where are they taken? He just told you: they are taken in judgment. They are destroyed.

Hence the Supper of the Great God.

If we interpret Prophecy as it has always been interpreted it is really very easy to understand. But when we try to make Scripture something other than what it is, revelation provided to men that we might know the Lord's will and what is going to happen, then we end up stumbling over our doctrine.

Like you and other Post-Tribulational believers do.

Again, are you Yeshua1?


God bless.

There shall be many who were not "saved" who shall enter into the Kingdom Age!