The Pre-Tribulational Rapture

[Darrell C]

All you espouse is contrary to the plain reading of scripture which, by your own words, “dismiss” without even attempting to explain.

You are just not being honest in this discussion, Canadyjd.

I dismissed the argument, not the Scripture. I have presented the Scripture with reasoning as to their context.

You say I am dismissing Scripture, yet you are the one denying a very plain statement in Scripture:


Revelation 20:1-6 King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


You even deny Christ's rule in that thousand years:

canadyjd said: ↑

It does not say Christ reigns on earth for 1000 years.

You know I haven't dismissed Scripture, and if you had read the posts concerning Matthew 24 you would see that I have consistently said that the Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place at Christ's Return, and that this is when He destroys the Goats (unbelievers).

I have also consistently stated that only those who are born again enter into the Millennial Kingdom. You can make one thousand years mean whatever you want to, but you are not going to be able to eradicate from Scripture the simple truth that the Tribulation Martyrs are said to reign with Christ following the Tribulation, and that after that time period the Great White Throne takes place.

It's time to start being honest with yourself, Canadyjd.

peace to you

And to you.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

I literally used the word dismissed concerning the doctrine and comment/s:

37818 said: ↑
1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
….

Because you deny a chronological order, and deny the consistency in fulfillment of Prophecy, you simply cannot understand the book of Revelation. How many times have you read the book, Canadyjd?

My suggestion is just sit down and read it several times. This is how we gain an understanding of Scripture: we read it. Pray that God will open your eyes to the truth. If the position you hold now is truth, great, you will be able to correct me in the position I hold to. If what you believe now is not true, then have the good sense to let it go.


Continued...

Like I said, you literally used the word “dismissed” referring to Matthew 24, and then stated “I dismissed nothing” and now you clarify admit you did “dismiss” the argument from Matthew 24. Thanks for clarifying, I guess.

I don’t need to brag about how many times I have read the Bible or specific books or studied specific issues.

I have always maintained I can be convinced to change my mind based on scripture. Your interpretations go so far beyond scripture into wild speculation so as to make scripture meaningless, which leads to statements like “the last trumpet doesn’t mean The Last Trumpet of Judgment”.

Mt suggestion to you is to read scripture again several times without the wild speculation. Pray God Holy Spirit guide you into the plain meaning of scripture without the wild speculation. That is how we learn the truth of God’s word and separate it from wild speculation.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

Like I said, you literally used the word “dismissed” referring to Matthew 24, and then stated “I dismissed nothing” and now you clarify admit you did “dismiss” the argument from Matthew 24. Thanks for clarifying, I guess.

You charged me with dismissing Scripture. What was dismissed was the argument.

It was not directed at Matthew 24, but the argument, lol.

Here it is again:


37818 said: ↑

1 Corinthians 15:52, ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
Already addressed and dismissed.


Are you going to deny your argument was that the last trump here is the last Trumpet Judgment?

I will show you the context of our discussion, though it is doubtful (based on your repeated return to this, lol) you will have any more luck with this context than context as found in Scripture:

canadyjd said: ↑
John writes in repeated themes, not chronological order.

Matthew 24 clearly, in the words of Jesus our Lord, states AFTER the tribulation, the trumpet sounds, He appears in the sky, the Angels collect the saints and then comes judgement followed immediately by His eternal reign in heaven.

I’m amazed that you spent so much effort in the other scripture but dismissed this one out of hand.

I dismissed nothing.

Do you see that you are charging me with "dismissing Scripture?"

Hence my response, "I have dismissed nothing."

Nothing but the argument, that is.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I don’t need to brag about how many times I have read the Bible or specific books or studied specific issues.

You don't need to publicly display that you've never read them, either.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I have always maintained I can be convinced to change my mind based on scripture. Your interpretations go so far beyond scripture into wild speculation so as to make scripture meaningless, which leads to statements like “the last trumpet doesn’t mean The Last Trumpet of Judgment”.

So point out one wild speculation.

That's all you have to do.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Mt suggestion to you is to read scripture again several times without the wild speculation. Pray God Holy Spirit guide you into the plain meaning of scripture without the wild speculation. That is how we learn the truth of God’s word and separate it from wild speculation.

"Wild speculation" would resemble deleting plain statements from Scripture and concluding the opposite.

Here are the wild speculations of your view:

1. The last trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4 is the Last Trumpet Judgment of Revelation, despite the fact that it happens while the Tribulation is still going on;

2. Revelation is not chronological, despite the fact that if one views it as chronological there is a consistent timeline of events;

3. Scripture does not mean a thousand years despite the fact that it states specifically one thousand years;

4. Christ does not reign for one thousand years despite the fact that Scripture states He will reign for one thousand years;

5. The Sheep and Goat Judgment is the Rapture despite the fact that in the Sheep and Goat judgment only believers and unbelievers are referred to and in the Rapture only believers are referred to;

6. There is no thousand-year period in which unbelievers come into being and are destroyed at a second resurrection known as the Great White Throne Judgment;

7. The Rapture can't take place until the First Resurrection of Revelation 20:1-6 despite the fact that the Two Witnesses are raptured in the middle of the Tribulation.


Will that suffice?

peace to you

And to you.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

"Wild speculation" would resemble deleting plain statements from Scripture and concluding the opposite.

Here are the wild speculations of your view:

1. The last trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4 is the Last Trumpet Judgment of Revelation, despite the fact that it happens while the Tribulation is still going on;

2. Revelation is not chronological, despite the fact that if one views it as chronological there is a consistent timeline of events;

3. Scripture does not mean a thousand years despite the fact that it states specifically one thousand years;

4. Christ does not reign for one thousand years despite the fact that Scripture states He will reign for one thousand years;

5. The Sheep and Goat Judgment is the Rapture despite the fact that in the Sheep and Goat judgment only believers and unbelievers are referred to and in the Rapture only believers are referred to;

6. There is no thousand-year period in which unbelievers come into being and are destroyed at a second resurrection known as the Great White Throne Judgment;

7. The Rapture can't take place until the First Resurrection of Revelation 20:1-6 despite the fact that the Two Witnesses are raptured in the middle of the Tribulation.


Will that suffice?




And to you.


God bless.

How about we discuss Matthew 24? If you can convince me my view of Matthew 24 is wrong, based on scripture in context, I’ll change my mind.

peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

Sorry, no.

Only those born again will enter into the Kingdom of God.

Period.

You are welcome to find a proof text and present it.


God bless.

Not all in the physical Kingdom of God shall be saved, as the ones saved by Jesus will be in their physically glorified bodies already at that time!

 

[JesusFan]

You are just not being honest in this discussion, Canadyjd.

I dismissed the argument, not the Scripture. I have presented the Scripture with reasoning as to their context.

You say I am dismissing Scripture, yet you are the one denying a very plain statement in Scripture:


Revelation 20:1-6 King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


You even deny Christ's rule in that thousand years:

canadyjd said: ↑

It does not say Christ reigns on earth for 1000 years.

You know I haven't dismissed Scripture, and if you had read the posts concerning Matthew 24 you would see that I have consistently said that the Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place at Christ's Return, and that this is when He destroys the Goats (unbelievers).

I have also consistently stated that only those who are born again enter into the Millennial Kingdom. You can make one thousand years mean whatever you want to, but you are not going to be able to eradicate from Scripture the simple truth that the Tribulation Martyrs are said to reign with Christ following the Tribulation, and that after that time period the Great White Throne takes place.

It's time to start being honest with yourself, Canadyjd.




And to you.


God bless.

We who are in the body of Christ shall be there in the Millennium, co assisting Jesus to rule over physical persons in their natural bodies!

 

[canadyjd]

We who are in the body of Christ shall be there in the Millennium, co assisting Jesus to rule over physical persons in their natural bodies!

I disagree, though I see how belief in a 1000 year reign in earth could lead to that conclusion.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

How about we discuss Matthew 24? If you can convince me my view of Matthew 24 is wrong, based on scripture in context, I’ll change my mind.

peace to you

Sure.

But first, please answer my question: are there two resurrections in Revelation or one?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Not all in the physical Kingdom of God shall be saved, as the ones saved by Jesus will be in their physically glorified bodies already at that time!

You are suggesting that there are those who are in the Kingdom of God who will not be saved?

No man is in the Kingdom of God unless they are born-again believers.

John the Baptist was not in the Kingdom Christ spoke of:


Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


The reason? Because while Christ ministered within the Law and the revelation men had received at that time, He also spoke of the Kingdom He would created through Eternal Redemption.

John was not part of that Kingdom yet.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

We who are in the body of Christ shall be there in the Millennium, co assisting Jesus to rule over physical persons in their natural bodies!

Not going to happen. This promise was not given to the Church:

Matthew 19:28 KJV
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


This promise was given to Jews that followed Christ.

We are a kingdom of priests, and for that I am very glad. Ruling over people is not necessarily something one would want to do, as before God it requires more diligence and exacts a higher judgment.

It is my view that in the Millennial Kingdom we will (at least those God appoints) will perform a ministry similar to that of Angels today. We will be in the shadows, so to speak.

Just a theory.


God bless.

 

[AustinC]

Not going to happen. This promise was not given to the Church:

Matthew 19:28 KJV
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


This promise was given to Jews that followed Christ.

We are a kingdom of priests, and for that I am very glad. Ruling over people is not necessarily something one would want to do, as before God it requires more diligence and exacts a higher judgment.

It is my view that in the Millennial Kingdom we will (at least those God appoints) will perform a ministry similar to that of Angels today. We will be in the shadows, so to speak.

Just a theory.


God bless.

We are more than a Kingdom of Priests. We are Royal Priests,meaning we are God's children who receive an inheritance.
1 Peter 2:9-10

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This is all Christians, not just Jews.

 

[Darrell C]

We are more than a Kingdom of Priests. We are Royal Priests,meaning we are God's children who receive an inheritance.
1 Peter 2:9-10

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This is all Christians, not just Jews.

Okay, so your position is that all Christians will be ruling the people of earth in the Millennial Kingdom?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

For some reason those who deny the Pre-tribulation Rapture decided to talk about it in a thread concerning Temporal Justification.

That is another tactic of those who cannot properly defend or deny the views of others: they talk among themselves about how the views they disagree with aren't true.

So wanted this here for those who might be interested in this topic and not the other:


Yes. First, we start with Paul. His teachings are first-century declarations directly from God of the Mystery of the Rapture.

Everyone knew about the general Resurrection (Daniel 12:1-2).

The learned knew:

Matthew 22:23
The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

But so did the common folk:


John 11:24 King James Version

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


So the idea it is a new doctrine is just one of the absurd arguments presented by those who also reject what Scripture states in Revelation 20. They fail to see the difference between the two resurrections presented there, and this is because they are loyal to a Theological System, not God, not His Word.


While I usually don't go beyond the teachings of Scripture as a defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, because anyone that is sincere in their studies will see the obvious problems that Mid, Post, and Amillennial teachings create (as well as the fact that those who usually reject Scripture are immersed into Theology Systems and Hermeneutics that deny sound doctrine), here are a few quotes:

LINK
(Note: this link is for the following, and will be changed as necessary (I would also point out the author's note "...translated at mt my request is not a reference to Darrel C)


"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).


The following section includes key passages from Ephraem's important text, written about A.D. 373, and translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary, at my request.

On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World

"1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ...

"2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because it is the very last time . . . . Because all saints and Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins (Italics added). And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord . . .

"3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere . . .

"6. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit . . .

"7. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire . . . . Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations . . . . then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years, 1260 days.

"8. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth . . . . and there will be a Great Tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth . . . . and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand . . . .

"10. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints . . . . Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever."


I don't agree with everything this man is teaching, and suggest that understanding of revelation has always been progressive, and the understanding of man has also been progressive.

An example would be John the Baptist: it was divinely revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ (as it was to the disciples, Matthew 16:12-18), yet while John was in prison he sent two disciples to inquire of the Lord if He was in fact the Christ, or did they seek another (Matthew 11:1-3).

But it is clear this ancient witness believed the Church would be raptured prior to the Tribulation.

Well Before Darby.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Thomas Ice presented this:

LINK

(Note: this link is for both quotes)

Posttribulationists like J. Barton Payne also admit that the early fathers held to an
imminency viewpoint. He surmises:

It must therefore be concluded that the denial of the imminence of the
Lord’s coming on the part of post-tribulationists who have reacted against
dispensationalism is not legitimate. . . .
Belief in the imminency of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the
early church; and it was only with the rise of a detailed application of Bible
prophecy, at the close of the second century, to yet future history that its truth
was questioned.13


THOMAS COLLIER
Frank Marotta, a brethren researcher, believes that Thomas Collier (d. 1691) in 1674
makes reference to a pretribulational rapture, but rejects the view,26 thus showing his
23 Gumerlock, “A Rapture Citation,” 356–9. 24 Gumerlock, “A Rapture Citation,” 361. 25 Reeves, “Influence of Prophecy,” 246. 26 Frank Marotta, Morgan Edwards: An Eighteenth Century Pretribulationist (Morganville, NJ: Present Truth
Publishers, 1995), 10–2. 10
awareness that such a view was being taught in the late seventeenth century. Collier in
The Body of Divinity27 says the following:

7. Quest. At what time may we suppose the Saints shall be raised? at his
first appearing in the Clouds of Heaven? or at the entrance of the thousand
years? or after the thousand years are finished?

Ans. Very probably at the entrance of the 1000 years, and that for these
reasons.

1. Because it is not likely that they should be raised before the Nations are
subdued and the new Heavens and new Earth prepared.

2. The Scripture saith, that it shall be at the sound of the last Trump, . . .
We may groundedly suppose that after Christ’s appearing in the work, he
may ascend and descend often.28

“Collier certainly considered the idea of a pretribulation rapture. If the saints were
raised when Christ appears and this is prior the fulfillment of the bulk of Revelation, it
is pretribulational” explains Marotta. “Whether anyone actually held to the
pretribulational view contemporary to Collier, or this was just an exercise of the mind,
we cannot say.”29
If this is a pre-trib rapture statement, it was hardly recognized as such at the time. It
is true that Collier had a futurist view of Revelation, which was rare to non-existent in
his day. As Marotta says, “Collier was clearly posttribulational.” Even if this were a
pre-trib statement, it had no known impact at the time.


This fellow did not embrace the Pre-Tribulational Rapture, but it shows that the Pre-Tribulational Rapture was not "first heard through the teachings of Darby."

JOHN ASGILL
There is the interesting case of John Asgill (1659–1738), who wrote a book in 1700
about the possibility of translation (i.e. rapture) without seeing death.30 As a result of
writing this book, Asgill was removed from the Irish parliament in 1703 and then from
the English parliament in 1707. “His book had been examined and pronounced
blasphemous, and had been burnt by order of the House without his having been heard
in its defense.”31 Asgill spent the last thirty years of his life in prison because of his
book on the rapture. This would tend to throw cold water on anyone desiring to make
known their thoughts on the rapture.

Asgill did not relate the possible any-moment translation to the tribulation or any
other prophetic event. Thus, his view could hardly be call any form of
pretribulationism. William Bramley-Moore said, “But he did not hold the truth in its
relation to other truths. He was looking for an individual translation, on which he
expressed himself somewhat strongly, and to which he did not attain; for he failed to
understand that the promised change or translation of the saints is not to be that of
solitary individuals, but of a corporate body.”32


As is typical, the "establishment" had a stranglehold on the Word of God.

Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss...


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

From the same site:

LINK

MORGAN EDWARDS
One of the clearest references to a pretribulation rapture before the time of Darby
came from a Welsh Baptist named Morgan Edwards (1722–95). Edwards was born in
Trevethin parish, Pontypool, Wales,33 and likely heard George Whitfield preach as a
young student at Trosnant Academy in Trevethin parish, Wales.34 He was a founder of
the Ivy League school, Brown University and graduated from Bristol Baptist College or
Bristol Academy in Bristol, England in 1744.35 He served several small Baptist
congregations in England for seven years, before moving to Cork, Ireland, where he
pastored for nine years. Edwards emigrated to America and in May 1761 became
pastor of the Baptist Church in Philadelphia in the American colonies,36 upon the
recommendation of the famous hyper-Calvinist John Gill (1697–1771).37 After the
Revolutionary War (he was the only known Baptist clergy of Tory persuasion),
Edwards became an educator and the premier Baptist historian of his day. He was
awarded an honorary Master of Arts degree in 1762 by the College of Philadelphia.38
His major work Materials Toward A History of the Baptists is an important seminal work
outlining American Baptist history of the era.39 Edwards co-founded the first Baptist
college in the Colonies, Rhode Island College, which we know today as Brown
University of the Ivy League.40
As was typical of early American Colonists, Edwards experienced significant
tragedy in his life. He outlived two wives and most of his children. During a “dark
period” in his life, he ceased attending church, took to drink and was excommunicated
from his church. “After making repeated efforts to be restored, he was received into the
church on October 6, 1788, and thereafter lived an exemplary life.”41 Baptist historian
Robert Torbet described Edwards as “a man of versatility, being both a capable leader
for many years and a historian of some importance. In temperament he was eccentric
and choleric. . . . With all of his varied gifts, he was always evangelistic in spirit.”42
Another historian similarly says of Edwards:

Scholarly, laborious, warm-hearted, eccentric, choleric Morgan Edwards, one of
the most interesting of the early Baptist ministers of our country and one of those
most deserving of honor. His very faults had a leaning toward virtues side, and
in good works he was exceeded by none of his day, if indeed by any of any day. .
. . He was an able preacher and a good man, but not always an easy man to get
on with.4

Edwards saw a distinct rapture three-and-a-half years before the start of the
millennium. He taught the following about the rapture:

II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more
than a thousand years.

I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living
changed at Christ’s “appearing in the air” (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be
about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter:
but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to
paradise, or to some one of those many “mansions in the father’s house”
(John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design
of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints;
for “now the time is come that judgment must begin,” and that will be “at the
house of God” (I Pet. iv. 17).48

Edwards makes three key points that are consistent with modern pretribulationism.
First, he clearly separates the rapture from the second coming by an interval of three-
and-a-half years. Second, he uses modern pre-trib rapture verses (1 Thessalonians 4:17
and John 14:2) to describe the rapture and support his view. Third, he believed the
judgment seat of Christ (rewarding) for believers will occur in heaven while the
tribulation is raging on earth, as is common in contemporary pretribulationism.


Again, I do not agree entirely with their teachings, but again, this shows the argument "Darby invented the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is bogus.

I look to the first-century teachings of Paul and Christ, though, to draw conclusions concerning the Pre-Tribulational Rapture.

It is simply impossible to have a Post-Tribulational Rapture or "no rapture" based on the Prophecy given us.

Those who spiritualize Scripture to their Theology Systems decry an adherence to what is in Scripture. No man can give an answer as to why Scripture does not mean what it states when it states God will restore Israel and that there is a thousand-year reign of Christ in Revelation 20.

There are more quotes to be found concerning early Pre-Tribulational views of ancient witnesses, but will those who deny the Pre-Tribulational Rapture look for them and test their Eschatology?

Nope.

Since I had to split this post I will throw this one in for free:

Edward’s book on the rapture was essentially lost as far as any popular, public
knowledge of it. It came to light in the 1990s in order to satisfy a challenge made by
Pre-trib opponent John Bray who promised to pay $500.00 to anyone “who will furnish
me with a documented statement by anybody (in a sermon, article or commentary) in
any country, published BEFORE LACUNZA’S TIME,” which would be 1812.57 Bray
acknowledged that the Edwards material satisfied his challenge and on March 21, 1995
he mailed a $500.00 check to an individual who showed him Edward’s book.58

While I view the commentary here to be of little value and only recognize Scripture's teachings, it does put to rest the idea that the Pre-TRibulational Rapture is a new idea.

As I said, the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is a first-century teaching of Scripture, a Mystery revealed by Paul, and quite separate from the other three resurrections we see in Revelation.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

How about we discuss Matthew 24? If you can convince me my view of Matthew 24 is wrong, based on scripture in context, I’ll change my mind.

peace to you

I haven't seen an answer to my question, "Are there two resurrections seen in Revelation 20 or just one" yet, so let's proceed on to Matthew 24.

I will have to know what it is you believe about Matthew 24 to know if you hold to something unscriptural, so perhaps you could state what it is you think disagrees with a Pre-Tribulational Rapture view?

As mentioned before (and perhaps in the other thread, since it blurred into this discussion), one of the things that might thought to be contradictory to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the idea that in view is the final judgment of all men, and this because some reject the clear statement of Scripture in Revelation 20 which makes it clear there are two resurrections which take place.

But the description is of the Return of Christ, and we can say that Christ's teachings speak directly to that event. Let's explore the chapter in view:


Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


When the Two Witnesses are murdered by Antichrist at the middle point of the Tribulation, Israel will be forced to flee as the Lord tells them to here. We see that Antichrist will establish the Abomination of Desolation (also fulfilled in part by Antiochus Epiphanes before Christ's First Coming). What Christ refers to is this:


Daniel 12:6-11 King James Version

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



So when the daily sacrifice is taken away, there will be 3 1/2 years. Added to that three and a half years (a time, times, and half a time) will be 75 days. This is the time Satan, who is bound at the beginning of Christ's Return (Revelation 20:1-3) will have to deceive the nations. He works fast, apparently, because he knows his time is short.

The Lord is also referring to this Old Testament prophecy:


Daniel 9:24-27 King James Version

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Those who have tried to make Christ "the prince to come" have not given this much thought. We know it isn't Christ, but the Antichrist in view because:

1. Christ has never confirmed any Covenant with anyone for seven years;

2. The people of Christ are not the ones who will destroy the city and sanctuary. He did say he would destroy a temple and rebuild it, but that was the temple of His Body and the reference was to His death, burial, and resurrection;

3. The Covenant Christ did establish in an everlasting Covenant, not a seven-year covenant;

4. Christ did not confirm (strengthen) the Covenant of Law for seven years;

5. Christ is warning in Matthew 24 that when the Abomination of Desolation was set up that they should flee: quite the opposite of Christ gather His wheat into His garner;


Now we look at Israel fleeing the Abomination of Desolation as commanded by Christ (and keep in mind this happens in the middle of a seven-year period, not a 3 1/2 year Tribulation:


Revelation 12:5-6; 13-17 King James Version

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The "remnant of her seed" are the Gentile believers that have been born again during the first half of this seven-year Tribulation.

Again, remember that the Abomination of Desolation occurs in the middle of the week (seven years). The Two Witnesses have at this point been murdered, raised again, and raptured.

I bring this up because we are establishing that the same event is being spoken of in Matthew 24 as the events described in Revelation. In the next post we will look at some more references to His Return.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

How about we discuss Matthew 24? If you can convince me my view of Matthew 24 is wrong, based on scripture in context, I’ll change my mind.

peace to you

Keep in mind, Canadyjd, I am just presenting some relevant issues concerning the Tribulation as related to Matthew 24. I won't be able to address anything you believe until I know what that is.

Next, we go here:


Matthew 24:27-28 King James Version

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


I've already spoken about this, so I will just repost that:


It can't be at the end of the Tribulation, because prophecy teaches there will be a great multitude that rises up against God at the end of the thousand years who will be destroyed, not in a judgment where sheep and goats are gathered and then judged, but immediately with the fire of God.

There is no event of physically dead unbelievers being feasted upon by the beasts and fowl of the air, The Supper of the Great God:


Ezekiel 39 King James Version

1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Revelation 19:17-18 King James Version

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


This corresponds to Christ's teachings:


Matthew 24:27-28 King James Version

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Luke 17 King James Version

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;


29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.


30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.


32 Remember Lot's wife.


33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.


35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


That hasn't happened yet, and we know this because Christ has not returned yet.

Now, lest someone think they can bypass Prophecy by denying the thousand years, let's take a look at the conditions following this destruction. The following is what happens after the Supper of the Great God:


Ezekiel 39:8-12 King James Version

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.


A seven month and a seven year period puts us well into the newly established Kingdom, the Millennial Kingdom.

Except a man be born again he shall not see the Kingdom of God.


The point relevant to Matthew 24 is that we see a consistency that confirms that there is one event in which we see Christ return, the wicked are destroyed, and the believers (Sheep) are "left."

In the Rapture, Christ doesn't return, we are taken out of the world. That is the clear teaching of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4.

So I will ask at this point, have I established that Matthew 24 is speaking about Christ's return in Revelation 19? That the Goats of Matthew 24 are the same wicked unbelievers who are destroyed consistently at this unique event?

And that is about all the time I have for this evening. Please feel free to share your thoughts on Matthew 24. I will give a spoiler, though: Note that the goats go into eternal torment. That doesn't mean they go into Hell at that time, though we do see reference to it. We will have to discuss the fact that there are at times multiple fulfillment of prophecy that we would distinguish between as partial (such as the prophecy concerning the coming of Messiah, it was not understood that He would come twice and that the prophecy spoke of both events) and ultimate/final fulfillment.


God bless