If that's what you imagine, I can't change your fantasy. What I know is that a pretrib rapture is an entirely made-up fantasy of people who want to avoid persecution.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Pre-Tribulational Rapture
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
- Status
37818
Well-Known Member
Not true. I am a post trib pre wrath repturist.
Rev. 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
This verse, a quote of Jesus Himself, establishes the fact of the pre-trib rapture. While it was given to the church at Philadelphia, it applies to Christians today, as there are types of all seven of those ancient churches today.
This verse, a quote of Jesus Himself, establishes the fact of the pre-trib rapture. While it was given to the church at Philadelphia, it applies to Christians today, as there are types of all seven of those ancient churches today.
The Pre-Tribulational Rapture has nothing to do with temporal wrath for believers. Again, most understand that Christians will suffer tribulation in this world. What is in view is the seven-year period described in Revelation. We call this The Tribulation, and as the Lord said ...
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I have already addressed this.
Anything else?
As I said, you will not address the points raised. Here are two that have been raised so far, can you address any of them?
1. The objection that the Pre-Tribulational Rapture cannot happen because "the first resurrection" takes place is a bogus argument. The "first resurrection in a context of sequence among those who will be raised in glorified bodies is that of the Lord Himself, secondly (as seen in Scripture) is the resurrection of the Two Witnesses, and the third would be just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment.
2. If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, that leaves no physical believer to produce the offspring that rise against God at the end of the thousand years (The Millennial Kingdom). All Prophecy related to the end of the Tribulation make it clear that all unbelievers will be destroyed at Christ's Second Coming. The offspring will be descendants of the born-again believers who do not die physically during the Tribulation but live to the end of it. The born-again believers who die are resurrected at the first resurrection.
God bless.
Actually that's great, because a discussion isn't much fun without an opposing viewpoint, lol.
But I have to insist it is true:
When you say you are Post-Tribulational and pre-wrath, I'd like to clarify that you mean the wrath of eternal judgment, right? Just want to clarify.
In order for you to make it "not true," you will need to address the issues already presented.
1. The objection that the Pre-Tribulational Rapture cannot happen because "the first resurrection" takes place is a bogus argument. The "first resurrection in a context of sequence among those who will be raised in glorified bodies is that of the Lord Himself, secondly (as seen in Scripture) is the resurrection of the Two Witnesses, and the third would be just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment.
2. If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, that leaves no physical believer to produce the offspring that rise against God at the end of the thousand years (The Millennial Kingdom). All Prophecy related to the end of the Tribulation make it clear that all unbelievers will be destroyed at Christ's Second Coming. The offspring will be descendants of the born-again believers who do not die physically during the Tribulation but live to the end of it. The born-again believers who die are resurrected at the first resurrection.
You know simply declaring something isn't true doesn't make it so. So if you don't mind, address these issues, and show me, through the Word of God, why it isn't true.
God bless.
Okay, let me be the first one to point out a flaw in my defense of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture.
Seams I have used the wrong word here.
God bless.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. The millennium is a thousand years before that Judgement.
Not necessary. The pre-trib view denies the actual first resurrection. And denies that the second appearing of Christ precedes the first resurrection which Jesus defined as taking place in what He called the last day. There is only one "the" last trumpet, which is one event, which takes place after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 ).
" But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." ( Mark 13:24-26 ).
" Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 ).
See also Luke 21:20-28.
Just_Ahead
Active Member
37818, I must say this -- I really like the brevity of your comments.
Not at all. That is precisely why I started with that in the OP.
"First" is a reference to type, rather than sequence.
Secondly, the First Resurrection of Revelation 20 involves only believers. This also points to "first"being given a context of type.
There is a thousand years given by Scripture between the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs and the resurrection of the unbelievers. While believers go into everlasting torment at the end of that time, there are still more unbelievers who will be born, die, and then resurrected to stand before God in judgment. It is at that time, in bodies suited for eternal damnation—rather than being in Hades (Revelation 20:5&13) in spirit form—are cast into the Lake of Fire.
And as is typical for those who hold to the Post-Tribulational view, you are ignoring the points given to support the Pre-Tribulational Rapture and going through your own list of proof-texts.
Tell me why Scripture doesn't mean one thousand years when it says one thousand years?
What are you going to do with the fact that Christ and the Old Testament only speak about one resurrection yet Revelation gives us three?
What are you going to do with the fact that after the first Resurrection there is a one thousand year period in which unbelievers are born and that they must die physically as well?
What are you going to do with the thousand years?
Continued...
The "last days" are already happening, and have been for centuries:
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Would you agree this is a reference to the concept of "the last days?"
Consider:
Joel 2:10 King James Version
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Sound familiar? So let's look at the Day of the Lord, and the Lord's Return (though the Old Testament Saints only knew about one Coming, just as they only knew about one Resurrection):
Joel 2 King James Version
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
This is an Old Testament Reference to the Coming Christ refers to in His teachings.
See if this sounds familiar:
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
It should:
Matthew 24:29-31 King James Version
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Same terminology and event, right? This is to take place during the Tribulation, not after.
Tribulation-Return of Christ-then a trumpet.
But we're not done yet. Let's continue in Joel:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Still the Day of the Lord. Here we see Christ has an army.
Revelation 19:11-14 King James Version
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Nothing has changed in the timeline of Prophecy:
Tribulation-Return of Christ-Millennial Kingdom...
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
But wait, looks like there's another event on the timeline:
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
Do you see two Comings in Prophecy?
Probably not, because it will not fit into a Post-Tribulational view.
But that is precisely what Scripture teaches.
Here, just as in Revelation, we have The Tribulation, the Return of Christ, the Millennial Kingdom, and then—The Return of Christ.
As I said, those who embrace the Pre-Tribulation Rapture can leave Prophecy as it is given and do not have to scramble to try to reconcile the problems that view creates. Whereas some might view short posts as a good thing, to me it denotes laziness and an inability to defend one's position.
And so far you have not addressed a single point and denied the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Whereas I have just shown you just one reason why your timeline is in error.
As stated in the OP, those who hold to the Post-Tribulational Rapture must blot out Scripture. You are blotting out the thousand years in Revelation 20. Do not add or take away. Because if you do, you will never get it right.
Continued...
There is one last Trump for the Church, there is one last Trumpet Judgment, and the Last Trumpet Judgment—is not at the end of the Tribulation.
Again we see a defense of the Post-Tribulation Rapture has to blot out Scripture.
Those who try to equate the judgments have obviously not bothered to read Revelation. If they had, they would see that the judgments are significantly different. Enough to make clear they are not the same judgments described different ways.
Revelation 8:7-13 King James Version
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Revelation 16 King James Version
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Revelation 16 King James Version
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 16 King James Version
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Revelation 16 King James Version
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
I guess I should point out here that there is a difference between an angel sounding and an angel pouring.
So far we see a clear difference. The next Trumpet is going to take up some room, but it only takes a few minutes to read this entire post. I would think someone who is a serious Bible Student would be interested in knowing how their position stands or falls. I know I do.
I am going to continue here, because the Fifth Vial Judgment has a direct correlation to Joel 2, and I don't want to give anyone an excuse to ignore this argument because it is "too long." Again, it only takes a couple minutes to read these.
Continued...
Rev. 3:10 firmly establishes the pre-trib rapture. Now, whether it occurs before the beast/antichrist comes to power, I don't know, but I believe he will be in nearly-full power, but it'll be before the mark of the beast will be issued. He will have an explanation for the sudden disappearance of millions of people that almost all the world will believe, mexcept for a few who will realize the rapture has occurred. There won't be any "veteran" Christians here to counter the beast's excuse. And I don't know if the Jews will have built their new temple in Jerusalem by rapture-time or not.
While I don't use the KJV, I often quote those Scriptures to preterists & ask them when those events occurred, as history wouldn't've missed them. Their usual excuse is that they're "figurative/symbolic" passages! Given the literal nature & fulfillments of Jesus' other prophecies so far, that's hardly a plausible or believable excuse. They also either deny the rapture, or say it already happened, although they cannot find any sudden disappearance of thousands of Christians in history.
Once again, Rev. 3:10, a quote of JESUS HIMSELF, firmly establishes the pre-trib rapture. (Or "translation/catching up" if you prefer.)
Picking up where we left off ...
Revelation 9 King James Version
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Revelation 16 King James Version
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Not only is there a difference between sounding and pouring, but there is a difference between a Trumpet and a Bowl/Vial.
We do see a similar judgment as we see in the Fifth Trumpet Judgment, but this is the first one that has such a closeness. Shall we forget the difference between the others and conclude concurrency?
Let's look back at Joel:
Joel 2:4-6 King James Version
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Revelation 9 King James Version
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Revelation 16 King James Version
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
In the Sixth Trumpet Judgment, we see four angels/demons loosed. and in the Sixth Vial/Bowl Judgment we see three. Quite a difference.
And I would like to make a comparison between the Seventh Trumpet Judgment and the Seventh Bowl Judgment, but I can't, because the Seventh Trumpet Judgment is the Seven Bowl Judgment/s.
The final Bowl Judgment:
Revelation 16:17-18 King James Version
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
So the idea that the Seventh Trumpet Judgment—which takes place during the Tribulation— is the "last trump Paul speaks of just doesn't work out. If it was correlated to the Rapture of the Church then we would have grounds for the Mid-Tribulation view, which, as I said in the OP, also has problems.
So in regards to ...
... this is simply not correct.
God bless.
Revelation 9 King James Version
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Revelation 16 King James Version
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Not only is there a difference between sounding and pouring, but there is a difference between a Trumpet and a Bowl/Vial.
We do see a similar judgment as we see in the Fifth Trumpet Judgment, but this is the first one that has such a closeness. Shall we forget the difference between the others and conclude concurrency?
Let's look back at Joel:
Joel 2:4-6 King James Version
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Revelation 9 King James Version
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Revelation 16 King James Version
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
In the Sixth Trumpet Judgment, we see four angels/demons loosed. and in the Sixth Vial/Bowl Judgment we see three. Quite a difference.
And I would like to make a comparison between the Seventh Trumpet Judgment and the Seventh Bowl Judgment, but I can't, because the Seventh Trumpet Judgment is the Seven Bowl Judgment/s.
The final Bowl Judgment:
Revelation 16:17-18 King James Version
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
So the idea that the Seventh Trumpet Judgment—which takes place during the Tribulation— is the "last trump Paul speaks of just doesn't work out. If it was correlated to the Rapture of the Church then we would have grounds for the Mid-Tribulation view, which, as I said in the OP, also has problems.
So in regards to ...
... this is simply not correct.
God bless.
Now, see, you're giving spoilers, lol.
I agree, and that is probably the worst thing about a Post-Tribulational view—it leads people into a very poor approach at interpreting Scripture.
It is necessary to not only ignore what is written, but requires the removal of a large part of Prophecy so that the Post-Tribulational view sounds half-reasonable.
We can interpret Revelation the same way we interpret all Prophecy.
It's interesting that the Reformers took a millennial view that they might separate themselves from the historical premillennial view of the Catholic Church. Now, the Catholic Church (or I should say Catholics I have had discussions with because I do not know the view the Catholic Church presents officially right now) has taken on more of an idealistic approach.
Post-Tribulation believers (and I do not view this as a doctrine that denies anyone's salvation) seem to have a difficulty in understanding that Prophecy can have more than one fulfillment (fulfillment, not meaning). They also seem to have a problem understanding implicit teaching in Scripture. Just as an example of how conclusions are drawn from context, consider:
Luke 1:34 King James Version
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
The word virgin is not in the text, but we know that she is a virgin, right?
Only a Pre-Tribulation view leaves all Prophecy intact. Only a sequential timeline in Revelation leaves Revelation intact and in complete harmony with all Prophecy before it, Old or New Testament.
This is why Post-tribulational believers cannot, and will not address the arguments presented defending the Pre-Tribulational Rapture.
And sadly, this is why Post-Tribulational believers often get upset and discussions break down.
But if we can seriously look at the issues I think we can not only bring harmony in the Body, regardless of who is right—we can come to a Biblical agreement that agrees with Scripture.
The Body is stronger and more effective when we are, first, in harmony with Scripture, and secondly—when we are in harmony with each other.
God bless.
I know the posts seem long, but that is due to spacing and sizing. It takes but a few minutes to read them.
We cannot come to reasonable conclusions without looking at the relevant Scriptures.
That takes time and diligence. But isn't the end result worth it?
God bless.
The unspoken arguments you present with this Scripture are addressed in posts 32 and 33.
Be happy to have you address those.
God bless.
- Status