The Problem of Regeneration Preceding Faith

[percho]

The account provides the testimony of some unsaved Jews:

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

These unsaved men testify to the "godliness" of Cornelius, that he had seen an angel, was warned of God, etc. But then what do they know of godliness? They rejected the Messiah and now worship in a false religion of legalism.

Here is Peter's testimony later on:
call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
--Peter was recounting the Lord's words to him. It was necessary for him to go to the house of Cornelius to hear the gospel, the Word of God first. There is no way he could be regenerated without hearing that gospel message. Impossible.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--He needed to hear Peter's message before he could be regenerated or saved.

What exactly is the, "word," by the gospel, that begets? What did it bring?

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:1-4

That right there is the incorruptible word of God. Jesus of Nazareth who died for you and was raised to die no more, also raised no more to return to corruption. That is the faith and grace of God we have heard of, through which we received the Holy Spirit. Spirit is life.

Verse 17 YLT and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

Faith was the sinless Christ's obedience unto death, his shed blood for our sins. Because of that obedience God, the Father highly exalted him, in raising him from the dead, with a name above all names. Gal 1:1, Phil 2:9, Heb 1:4,5 The resurrection was the Grace of God

By grace through the faith Eph 2:8 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

That is the faith you heard of, by which you received the Holy Spirit, the Comforter = Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

That is the incorruptible, word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:3 YLT Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,

We received the Spirit which begets us with living hope through the hearing of the sinless One giving his life for us and God his Father raising him from the dead.

Acts 2:32,33
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--He needed to hear Peter's message before he could be regenerated or saved.

Brother DHK and Brother Steaver,

This post is in response to the post Steaver says, "annihilates" the position that regeneration precedes faith. I am sure to any honest, unbias reader will concur it does not in fact do this after reading this post of mine.

Yes, Peter does say we are born again "by the word of God", but the "word of God" there is referring to Jesus Christ himself! "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). The written word has not been around forever, it doesn't "liveth and abideth forever" as Peter says, thus how can you conclude that is what the "word of God" is talking about in 1 Peter? Now on the other hand, has Jesus Christ been around forever? What saith the scripture? "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8). This verse describing Jesus sounds a lot like the word Peter said in 1 Peter 1:23 that "liveth and abideth forever" doesn't it?

Take a look at Hebrews 4:12-13, "2 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight:". Now many people here also falsely conclude this is talking of the written word, but then why does verse 13 say "his sight", because the preceding verse 12 is talking about Jesus the living word not the written word as you gospel regenerationists would have us believe!

Now to my final point, 1: Peter 1:25 that you think establishes your position that the word of God mentioned is the written word actually proves mine that it is the written word. Here again is the verse, "25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." Now first it can't be the written word because again, that hasn't been around "for ever", but Christ has. But notice this, he says "this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you", he makes a distinction between "the word which by the gospel...preached unto you", thus how can the gospel and the word be one and the same? They can't! Now see if you substitute the word Christ in that verse for "the word" if it makes more since, "this is the Christ which by the gospel is preached unto you", makes perfect since now doesn't it?

Brother Joe

 

[steaver]

Brother Steaver,

Now that I have answered your question in my prior post, are you going to answer mine and provide examples outside of Cornelius of an unsaved person fearing God and having their prayers answered as you contend Cornelius was unsaved?

Peter contends Cornelius was unsaved and needed to hear the gospel. I happen to believe Peter. So why would finding any other unsaved folks in the bible who feared God and had prayers answered help your position? It is you who assume God fearing folks are saved. Yet Peter tells us that is not what saves. If you reject Peter's testimony, I don't know what else I could post that would convince you otherwise. Blessings brother!

 

[Jerome]

Earlier I quoted:

Dr. Timothy George (Reformed Baptist), Theology of the Reformers:

"being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration that, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result"

Posters 'Martin Marprelate' and "TCassidy" tried to deny that Calvin taught that regeneration follows from faith. Well, here's more, straight from the horse's mouth:

"Next, we must ascertain what is the method of our deliverance. For so long as we are governed by our sense and by our natural disposition, we are in bondage to sin; but when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith, and hence it is evident that freedom proceeds from the Gospel." —John Calvin, Commentary on John 8:32

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace; . . . .grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration" —John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 4:16

So too in his Catechism of the Church of Geneva (Q126):

"For when by faith we receive Christ as he is offered to us, he not only promises us deliverance from death and reconciliation with God, but also the gift of the Holy Spirit, by which we are regenerated to newness of life; these things must necessarily be conjoined so as not to divide Christ from himself."

 

[Jerome]

And how about the Belgic Confession:

"We believe that this true faith being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God, and the operation of the Holy Ghost, doth regenerate and make him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin."

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Peter contends Cornelius was unsaved and needed to hear the gospel. I happen to believe Peter. So why would finding any other unsaved folks in the bible who feared God and had prayers answered help your position? It is you who assume God fearing folks are saved. Yet Peter tells us that is not what saves. If you reject Peter's testimony, I don't know what else I could post that would convince you otherwise. Blessings brother!

Brother,

As I said in one of my prior posts to you, you error by every time you read the word "saved" interpreting that to have one and only one meaning every time, however there are different phases to salvation, this is referred to as the "order of salvation". I noticed you didn't even reply to that post of mine that I talk about in what sense the gospel "saved" Cornelius, are you going to try to refute it? It is post # 102.

 

[steaver]

Brother,

As I said in one of my prior posts to you, you error by every time you see the word saved interpreting that to have one and only one meaning every time, however there are different phases to salvation, this is referred to as the "order of salvation". I noticed you didn't even reply to that post of mine that talks about in what sense the gospel "saved" Cornelius, are you going to? It is post # 102.

Those "phases" are man's opinion. I did not see much substance presented to support it. Do you really think Peter thought Cornelius was already saved before he talked with him?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Those "phases" are man's opinion. I did not see much substance presented to support it. Do you really think Peter thought Cornelius was already saved before he talked with him?

Here is proof of the phases of salvation. Paul said he was saved before the world began, "9 Who hath saved us (past tense), and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,", but he also taught he was saved when Jesus came into the world, "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15), but he also said he was saved when he was regenerated, "5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5), but he also also declared people would be saved when they take heed and continued in doctrine, "16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:6). This is being saved in time, and is the 'saving" Cornelius experienced when he believed Peter's doctrines taught in the Bible. The Bible makes a distinction between being saved eternally (eternal life) and being saved in time (conversion). Scripture very clearly says the gospel brings "life and immortality to light" (2 Timothy 1:10), but brother Steaver would have us believe the "gospel brings life and immortality" and leave out the "to light" part, big difference don't you think? Who am I to believe you are the Bible? Finally, Paul says he would be saved sometime in the future after he believed, "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." (Romans 13:11) This is when we get our new bodies. Now brother Steaver, I have walked you through all the phases of salvation, given scripture to support each phase, why then do you say they are men's opinions? If the word "saved" always means the same thing and there is only one aspect to being saved, no phases, how then did Paul declare separate, distinct, different times in history of when he was saved?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

Good to see you posting again! I was wondering when you would jump in to aid brother Steaver!

Acts 10 tells us Cornelius feared God and also had his prayers heard before Peter arrived, thus he must have already been born again as these things cannot be said of the unsaved. If you disagree, as I challenged brother Steaver, I also challenge you, please show me scriptures that say these two characteristics also hold true for those who are unsaved (i.e examples of unsaved people having their prayers heard and fearing God).

You make too many assumptions.
God warned Pharaoh in Genesis 12 and plagued all that he had,

Now consider the conversation that God had with this unsaved king--Abimilech:
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
Gen 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Gen 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Gen 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

--God speaks to the unsaved.
In fact if God speaks to an ass such as Balaam's and use him I am sure that he can use you or I. I am also sure that he could have spoken to Cornelius if an ass could understand the Lord. Are you putting limitations on God here?

Many unsaved "fear God." My father "feared God," but yet remained unsaved. It is not unusual for an unsaved man to "fear God."
Your arguments are weak and prove nothing.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK and Brother Steaver,

This post is in response to the post Steaver says, "annihilates" the position that regeneration precedes faith. I am sure to any honest, unbias reader will concur it does not in fact do this after reading this post of mine.

Yes, Peter does say we are born again "by the word of God", but the "word of God" there is referring to Jesus Christ himself! "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).

First you have to go out of the context to get to that conclusion.
Second, you have to deny the context to get to that conclusion.
Third, you have to read into the passage your own prejudicial Calvinistic theology to come to that conclusion.
Look what it says:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--We are born again by the Word of God. This Word of God is specifically the gospel which was preached unto them, not the Word of John 1:1,14. That both contradicts this passage and has to be eisigeted from it. It is not a Biblical conclusion.

The written word has not been around forever, it doesn't "liveth and abideth forever" as Peter says, thus how can you conclude that is what the "word of God" is talking about in 1 Peter?

The gospel lives and abides forever on the lips of those who would die for it. Learn that from church history. There are many who have died preaching that wonderful message.

Now on the other hand, has Jesus Christ been around forever? What saith the scripture? "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8). This verse describing Jesus sounds a lot like the word Peter said in 1 Peter 1:23 that "liveth and abideth forever" doesn't it?

One cannot separate Jesus from His message. What does John 14:6 mean to you. He is the way the truth and the life. He either lied when he said that, and is the biggest fake and impostor that ever lived, or he is God incarnate and must be accepted and received as such. One cannot stand neutral. He must make the choice. The message cannot be separated from the person.

Take a look at Hebrews 4:12-13, "2 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight:". Now many people here also falsely conclude this is talking of the written word, but then why does verse 13 say "his sight", because the preceding verse 12 is talking about Jesus the living word not the written word as you gospel regenerationists would have us believe!

You have quoted the message that lives forever, "piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, that which the Word does to bring salvation. The message cannot be separated from the person. Only the gospel can saved.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Now to my final point, 1: Peter 1:25 that you think establishes your position that the word of God mentioned is the written word actually proves mine that it is the written word. Here again is the verse, "25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." Now first it can't be the written word because again, that hasn't been around "for ever", but Christ has.

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
--Christ says differently.

But notice this, he says "this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you", he makes a distinction between "the word which by the gospel...preached unto you", thus how can the gospel and the word be one and the same? They can't! Now see if you substitute the word Christ in that verse for "the word" if it makes more since, "this is the Christ which by the gospel is preached unto you", makes perfect since now doesn't it?

Brother Joe

The book of life will be at the Great White Throne Judgement. So will the other books be there.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
--It shall never be destroyed. It will live forever.
It is the gospel which saves. Over and over again we are told "the gospel alone saves.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Me, I tend to think of this question in terms of quantum physics bits and pieces can and are understood. But, to get it exactly right takes measuring devices currently not technologically available.

 

[Yeshua1]

I see the Lord doing the regeneration upon a sinner, and that results in that person receiving jesus thru faith, and that happens so quickly togtehr that to us is the same event!

Its the sovereign moving of the Holy spirit at his time to have a sinner saved, and i do not fall into the camp of those who see it as possible to have God regernate a sinner, and yet at times have years apart from them receiving christ thru faith!

 

[MB]

1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."

Everyone, from the newest convert to the oldest saint, who believes Jesus is the Christ has been (past tense) born of God.

As soon as the Arminians grasp that bible fact they will begin to understand the gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

Posters 'Martin Marprelate' and "TCassidy" tried to deny that Calvin taught that regeneration follows from faith. Well, here's more, straight from the horse's mouth:

"Next, we must ascertain what is the method of our deliverance. For so long as we are governed by our sense and by our natural disposition, we are in bondage to sin; but when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith, and hence it is evident that freedom proceeds from the Gospel." —John Calvin, Commentary on John 8:32

If Calvin considers "the regeneration", which is corporate, to be synonymous with the individual's heavenly birth, then HE is wrong. The biblical meaning of regeneration is in reference to being made part of the corporate regeneration, 'the building again of the house of David', i.e. CHRISTIONDOM, the Israel of God, through the washing and cleansing of the gospel.

This has nothing to do with the birth from the Jerusalem that is above, our mother. The Spirit blows where He wills. In no way does 'our faith' or the gospel or it's minsters convey the Spirit to bring about the heavenly birth. That is done 'not of blood, nor of the will of man, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God'.

 

[Internet Theologian]

So the OT saints believed Jesus is the Christ? Oh boy....

Wow. What a checkmate you've offered. Wink

The OT saints knew YHWH is LORD, YHWH being the Christ of the NT.

 

[Internet Theologian]

So the OT saints new <sic> His name? Don't see that in my bible...

Yes. His name is YHWH. There are lots of things you're not seeing in your Bible including my first statement. If you knew this then you wouldn't be on your little diatribe.

 

[DHK]

If Calvin considers "the regeneration", which is corporate, to be synonymous with the individual's heavenly birth, then HE is wrong.

Yes, he was wrong about many things, especially anabaptism, even to the extent that anabaptists should be put to death. So he advised the English government and religious leaders to do. Calvin did not advocate being baptized again, neither was he ever baptized again. He considered his own Roman Catholic baptism sufficient, even for this NT covenant that he afterward entered into.

 

[TCassidy]

Posters 'Martin Marprelate' and "TCassidy" tried to deny that Calvin taught that regeneration follows from faith.

No, I didn't, as I couldn't care less what Calvin believed or wrote. My understanding of soteriology does not come from Calvin, or anyone else. It comes from the bible.

 

[Rippon]

Yes, he was wrong about many things, especially anabaptism, even to the extent that anabaptists should be put to death. So he advised the English government and religious leaders to do.

You just can't help yourself --you have a severe form of Calvinitis.
Please document when you make assertions --especially ones as rash as the ones here.

 

[DHK]

You just can't help yourself --you have a severe form of Calvinitis.
Please document when you make assertions --especially ones as rash as the ones here.

It is common enough knowledge that Calvin was not rebaptized. He was totally against the anabaptist doctrine.
As for his influence in England: J.T. Christian documents in "A History of the Baptists," pp. 198,199:

The influence of John Calvin had begun to be felt in English affairs. His books had appeared in translations in England. He was responsible in a large measure for the demon of hate and fierce hostility which the Baptists of England had to encounter. He advised that "Anabaptists and reactionists should be alike put to death" (Froude, History of England, V. 99). He wrote a letter to Lord Protector Somerset, the translation was probably made by Archbishop Cranmer (Calvin to the Protector, MSS. Domestic Edward VI, V. 1548)) to the effect: "These altogether deserve to be well punished by the sword, seeing that they do conspire against God, who had set him in his royal seat"

The first to be burnt in this reign was Joan of Kent, who was probably a member of the church at Eythorne (Evans, The History of the English Baptists, I. 72 note). She was a pious and worthy woman, and a great reader of the Scriptures. She was arrested in the year 1548 on the charge of heresy and she was burnt April 30, the following year.

Calvin to the Archbishop: "Anabaptists should be put to death!"