The Question Arminians Can't Answer

You have the issue pegged, Samuel. But I don't think you'll ever get an answer. There isn't one.

 

Belief is the work of God, His lively-hood so to speak. For that reason, He sent His only begotten son to be the object of man's belief. God did the work, it is now up to us to believe. The work that He did for us requires us to believe in order to have!

God told Moses to raise up a brass serpent in the wilderness so that those who looked at it would be saved from the ravages of a plague of snakes. All the people had to do was believe and look! That brass serpent did not save the people, their belief did! Generally speaking, they would not have looked if they did not believe. However, I believe many looked out of curiosity and because what they were told came true, they believed.

God raised His only Son up on a cross, so that all who believed in Him would be saved. God does the work to get us to believe, leaving nothing for us to do be BELIEVE! Some get 'converted' to belief before looking upon the one on the cross, but most observe (window shop) first, then believe.

Yes, believing is the work of God just as stated in John 6:29. Jesus said on the Cross "it is finished"! All that the Father gave to the son was finished, the work of God was finished 2000 years ago. If God says 'It is finished', it is indeed finished. So what is left to do if God says it is finished? That's right folks, all there is for us to do is believe! Believe it or not!

 

Yelsew,

It is frutrating for me to read the same misrepresentations now as weeks ago.

Calvnaists affirm that peopele have a responsibiliy to believe.

but as you point out, faith is a work of God, not man Hence no amount of exercising "free will" will get one to believe in a way that results in justification of the ungodly.

You have just argued successfully for the need for effectual call. Congratulations.

 

This simply is not true! Man believes in a wide variety of things without any provocation or assistance at all from God. Believing is really easy because it requires no work! No effort is expended except mental energy! What is difficult, though, is believing in God, in the Christ even on his name. Such belief flies in the face of all that we mere mortals know and understand.

God is not an automobile that we can put our trust in to take us to another destination. God is not a human, with us today, that we can see, hear, talk to, or touch like we do with other humans that we do trust. So we have to believe in that for which we can only have hope, exhibiting a faith that is the evidence of spiritual things which are 'unseen' just as scripture says.

Believing is easy and effortless, you can believe in, on or about any object based merely on sight, sound, or the other human senses. It is the object of belief that makes it much more difficult. God is the single most difficult topic to comprehend, therefore belief in God does not come as easily as believing in flight, or any other thing that man has conquered. God remains incomprehensible to man because God is well above man's understanding. We do, however understand much of man and how man works, including man's innate ability to believe of his own free will.

 

You obviously cannot comprehend what you read.

Justification of the ungodly? There is only one who justifies and he is Jesus, and He finished his work 2000 years ago!

All mankind living since Jesus, have been justified by the Once-for-All sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. That one time event covers all humanity living from that day forward, and I believe, for all who preceded Jesus in human time that had faith in God and lived as righteously as possible. Justification is an accomplished fact!

Sanctification, on the other hand, is totally dependent on us, each individual of us. Sanctification which is a "setting apart" of some from the rest is the result of human belief. When one believes in Jesus, even on His name, his spirit is changed from sin nature to righteousness nature...from lost to found! That is sanctification because when we all face the Judgment throne of God, we are judged on whose mark is upon our spirit. If not Jesus, then begone to the lake of fire.

I believe in Jesus. I was lost, but now I'm found (sanctified). I was blind but now I see! And the difference is MY personal belief in Jesus.

 

And if I had no belief in God, but retained a great servant's heart? I personally know at least a dozen non-believers who have a servant's heart that Christians should strive to emulate. They simply do not believe in God! Their answer could not be that "it is God or Christ in me". So their servant's heart come from some other source.

The question is Why do I belief in Jesus? The answer is because He convinced me of who he is and what he did for me and what my response to him must be for me to realize the promise that He gave. And in John 3: 14-18 He said Believe in me, even on my name, and you shall have the promised eternal life. He allowed me to believe the truth and make up my own mind.

However, once I believed the truth about Him, I became self incriminated, and found that I needed to confess and repent of my sins. I did Confess, and continue to confess, now that I have the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sins as they occur. I strive to live a righteous life in accordance with the teachings of scripture. I know that when I face the Judgment throne of God that I will, because of the mark of Jesus on my spirit, receive a "Life sentence" and not the death penalty.

That is why I believe. I was convinced, not coerced into believing in Jesus! I was allowed to decide for myself, and no one voted!

Now, Why do you believe?

[ January 22, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12, 13)

Sanctification is the work of God.

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in ever good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:20. 21)

Sanctification is the work of God.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Sanctification is the work of God.

Yelsew, here is the testimony of the Scriptures. Sanctification is the work of God.

 

You obviously cannot comprehend what you read.

Justification of the ungodly? There is only one who justifies and he is Jesus, and He finished his work 2000 years ago!

All mankind living since Jesus, have been justified by the Once-for-All sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. That one time event covers all humanity living from that day forward, and I believe, for all who preceded Jesus in human time that had faith in God and lived as righteously as possible. Justification is an accomplished fact!

Sanctification, on the other hand, is totally dependent on us, each individual of us. Sanctification which is a "setting apart" of some from the rest is the result of human belief. When one believes in Jesus, even on His name, his spirit is changed from sin nature to righteousness nature...from lost to found! That is sanctification because when we all face the Judgment throne of God, we are judged on whose mark is upon our spirit. If not Jesus, then begone to the lake of fire.

I believe in Jesus. I was lost, but now I'm found (sanctified). I was blind but now I see! And the difference is MY personal belief in Jesus.</font>[/QUOTE]I comprehended what I read just fine.

However that you respond as you do shows that you did not like what you read. Making personal remarks instead of responding to the actual point indicates you have no answer.

Nor do you know the Scriptures. Sanctification depends totally on us indeed! If we cannot make ourselves holy enough to be accepted in God's sight, what makes you think we can bring ourselves the rest of the way without help? What a humanistic belief, that God only needed to give us a push towards holiness in justifying in response to our sovereign choice to believe. Why, given how small a role God plays one wonders why you bohter with him at all!

And you also show yourslef a poor answerer of questions. You have still not answered anything put to you. Nor have you refuted what i pointed out; you simply chose to take one part of what I said out of context and try a bait and switch. Nie try, but no dice. The fact remains you have argued for a Calvanist position on effectual call and atonement. You do it inconsistently, but that simply leaves me hopeful that you are learning something here.

I do find it amusing though that the harder you push the more apparant becomes the fact that you glory in your own decision to believe. How humanistic. YOU are the differene! Here I thought Christ was...

 

"For who maketh thee to differ to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

Excuse me, who made the difference? God or you?

"For ye see your calling brethren, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:26-31)

If any man boasts in himself regarding salvation, he has missed grace. The purpose of God according to salvation is the glory of His name, not man.

[ January 22, 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

What does sanctification have to do with holiness? Are we not commanded by God Himself to "be holy..." Why would he command us to be what, according to you, we are not capable of being?

Perhaps you do not understand sanctify or sanctification. Please define it as you understand it.

IN YOUR OPINION!

IN YOUR OPINION!

Wrong, I do not argue 'for' or 'against' Calvinist position on anything. If Calvin's thoughts coincide with mine OK! If they don't, OK!

Well, I'm glad that you recognize me the way God made me, a free and independent human being with all the attributes that God gave man in the creation. Able to Hear, Speak, See, Smell, and Feel, and respond to stimuli and believe as I see fit. It's too bad you don't recognize that in yourself.

 

John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65. "And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.''"

What do the above verses mean?

Rufus

 

I was wondering if anyone else noticed that. I also noticed that the flowery "religious" language has become inversely proportional to anything resembling scriptural support.

 

Now that's a novel argument.

 

Paul, the Preacher talking to the church of believers at Philippi. Yes the Holy Spirit is at work in the believer. But how did the Philippians come to be believers? If you are going to attempt to chastise me using scriptures such as this, you had better take it back a step or two to ask how the Philippians, Colossians, Ephesians, Romans, Thessalonians, Laodaceans, Thyatyrans, asia minor bretheren, and the Hebrews, came to the point that Paul could talk to them in this manner. They are all already sanctified in their belief in Jesus, the Christ!

Yes, the Author of Hebrews addressing the Hebrew believers (the already sanctified Hebrews) explaining that they must be submissive to the will of God, for His sake, and His glory.

Peter addressing believers who are already sanctified, and who already have an inheritance "reserved in Heaven for you". How did they come to belief?

God did the work, we do the believing. Believing in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, sanctifies us! Unbelievers are not sanctified! Though Jesus Sacrifice did Justify them the same as us. God did the work of Justifying all men over 2 millenniums ago. That work of Justifying is the vehicle provided whereby we can be sanctified by believing in the Lamb of God. There is no other way to be drawn out (sanctified) of an unbelieving world except by believing. Jesus said so!

Every church has in it both believers and unbelievers. No man alive can, by standing in front of the congregation and looking, determine who the believers are and who the unbelievers are. They all look alike. God looks on the heart and has no difficulty distinguishing believer from unbeliever, because the believer is sanctified in God's sight! The believer's heart (spirit) bears the mark of belief in God's only Son.

 

Rufus, Jesus also said "if I be lifted up I will draw all men to me. Jesus is God! Just as with Moses and the Bronze or Brass serpent God told him to raise up before the people who were suffering snake bite and dying.

God said all the people were required to do is "Look up" to the serpent and they would be saved from the poisonous venum. Those who did were saved, those who did not are still in the wilderness somewhere, just lying around with parts blown everywhere.

Jesus was the Sacrificial Lamb who was Lifted up so that men would be drawn to him. Those who see Jesus and are drawn by that excruciating site of crucifixion of the innocent Lamb are drawn by God, and they are saved. Those who either ignore it or reject it, condemn themselves, for it is there before all men for all to see just as the serpent was there for all to see.

Of course there will be those who will say that the Egyptians were not drawn to see serpent. Well all I can say is, it is not my plan! It is God's and you can accept it or reject it as you see fit!

 

Harald,

I found your post interesting. Personally, I don't think I can call people unsaved just because they don't agree with every point of theology that I believe. That would make me a bigot. I do, however, believe there are basic things that one must believe in order to be a Christian.

If you will, please, explain 'duty faith' and 'duty repentance.'

 

Thanks, Samuel. Incredulity has taken over my ability to respond to some of these things, and you did a much better job than I would have.

 

Ray Berrian. Duty faith and duty repentance became a hot issue in England among the Particular Baptists in the late 18th century, much due to the heretic Andrew Fuller and his twisted teaching. The concept, it appears, had existed before this, but now it surfaced with a vengeance. A few men who opposed and refuted Fuller's heresy were Huntington, and later on John Foreman and William Rushton with his book "Particular Redemption". Duty faith and duty repentance I understand to mean the twisted view that so called saving faith and saving repentance God- and Christ-ward are duties of unregenerate sinners which they must perform in order to be saved from the wrath to come. They base their heresy on certain passages, but at the same time ignore others which clearly teach otherwise. Duty faith and duty repentance are kind of related to the free offer heresy, and all these usually go hand in hand. A continual clinging to these in my understanding and in that of many others as well is an alarming thing, it indicates non-familiarity with the true Gospel of grace of the Bible and the lack of genuine spiritual faith in Christ Jesus the Lord. If interested here are two links which touch upon duty faith and the related free offer heresy respectively.

http://www@geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/8890/grace/forman.html

http://www.olddesign.com/The%20Utility%20of%20The%20Gospel.html

Harald

 

Samuel,

Jesus justifies sinful man before the Throne of God by his willing sacrifice in our stead. It was for us that he went to Calvary. His blood, shed in the stead of ours, justifies us. Do you have another definition for Justification?

Gee, sound just like what I said, I just did not carry my explanation past the stage of beginning the Sanctification process through our belief.

Far from , and really appreciative of your concern for me. However,

Paul the preacher writing to the Congregation of believers living in Greece, who are sanctified by their belief. We all know that sanctification is a process, but sanctification of the individual has a starting point, a point at which the individual is separated from what was and installed in what is, and that is when the individual comes to belief in the Son of God, the Messiah.

OK, we all know that man can believe in anything man wants to believe in. But man can only be sanctified by believing in one being, the LORD, the Son of God, The Messiah! So, Yes it is the Lord who sanctifies, and the way that is accomplished in man is persuasion in man of who and what Jesus is. I say persuasion because belief is what changes in man! If, when you come to belief in God, you have cancer, you will still have cancer after you believe, unless God mercifully cures you. There are some testimonies to that effect, however is it certainly not an epidemic, or your churches would not be able to hold the resulting crowds. You can only wish that being born again was physical too.

This one's too easy: It is the truth that persuades one to believe and belief is sanctification.

Jesus, who is the cause of our sanctification and believers in Jesus who are so sanctified are of course the children of God the Father.

I'm sorry that you are so easily embarrassed by the truth!