The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God.

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Ed Edwards]

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes not only the
immediate time before 70AD when the
AOD = abomination of desolation happened
(Matthe 24:15-2) but also all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
EVERYONE LOSES if we allow manmade doctrines to undermine the gospel.

I do not say this to be harsh, but rather to provoke you to reconsider your opinion.

I don't think the Holy Spirit
who has taught me this over the last 51 years
of teaching is going to let me
"reconsider". And yes, it is too harsh to
try to steal the HOPE that is within me.

Why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 mention
"faith" and "hope" if they are not
two different things? I faith in Jesus
for: eternal salvation. I hope in Jesus
for salvation from hell, both the
eternal kind and the kind that comes
to earth (AKA: wrath). In other words,
I hope for eternal salvation (OSAS),
and the the pretribulation rapture.
Really i do wonder about those who
don't believe OSAS nor pretribulation rapture
for they are two of the three legs
of salvation.l I guess such folks do
know that the good news is that sinners
such as us do NOT have to die and go to
hell.

Here is the ugly scnario i see:
The AC rises to power. He tortures
anybody who is not willing to call
him "god". After 24-hours of torture,
50% of people will renounce Jesus.
after 48-hours of torture 70%,
after 3 days 90%
after 6 days 99%
after 10 days 99.9%
after 20 days 99.99%
I think you see where i'm going.
Any reasonably successful AC is
going to have 99,990 anti-conversions.
Hello Tribulation Period, the Wrath,
when Hell comes to earth and causes
people to renounce their salvation.
Well I believe OSAS and i think that
when AC has someone tortured and they
renounce Christ and then the AC has
them killed, their soul will immediately
go to heaven. They will have their
body resurrected at the rapture/resurrection
at the end of the Tribulation Period.

I belive if the pretribualtion rapture
happened today, of the 2,000 Million called
christians only a few (20%) are REAL
christians. But that will make 400 Million
to rapture (and several Billion to
Resurrect). I don't think that will
happen in secret (with the rest of the world not
seeing a thing that goes on).

At the rapture at the end of the tribulation
period, there will only be a few dozen
persons raptured -- the few that managed
to evade the forces of AC for 7 years.
I'm talking here gentiles who missed out
on the pretribualtion rapture.
the Jewish Israeli elect saints are supranaturally
protected by God from AC during the
Tribulation Period.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Dear Brother Baptist Believer:

I don't believe in a "secret rapture".
I don't teach a "secret rapture".
You are shadow boxing with "secret rapture".

When I say “secret rapture”, I am referring to the belief that there will be a rapture of God’s people where Christ will not immediately be revealed to all the nations.

I do not know if that accurately represents your view or not. From this moment on I will endeavor only to comment on what you have specifically asserted instead of critiquing the most common view of the pretrib rapture.

My apologies.

That may be lots of fun, but is
hardly productive.

It’s not fun at all. I am responding out of deep concern.

Tell us what the
rapture is, when it is (relative to other
end times events),

I don’t have it all charted out because I’m not sure if God has revealed the specifics. In any case, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t have all the answers.

From my study, it appears that the rapture occurs immediately before Christ descends to the earth in His second coming. The rapture will not remove us from any tribulation.

…and how to get ready
for it.

True disciples of Christ are already ready for His return.

 

[john6:63]

I believe the problem is solved when we see that there are actually “two” second comings. One is in the air, for the church, commonly known as the rapture. The other is to the world, coming with the church, commonly known as the Second Coming of Jesus. Seeing there are really references to “two” returns of Jesus will solve the Matthew Chapter 24 dilima, as well as much of the rest of prophecy.

(Matthew 24:29-31)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is evident that this event is referring to the Second Coming of Christ along with the church, b/c it is following the tribulation.

(Revelation 19:14)

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

(Zechariah 14)

…and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

(Matthew 24:40-44)

Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Jesus here is depicting a curious disappearances; to a catching away of some at the coming of the Son of Man, which is also described in

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This event is separate from the Second Coming of Christ and Paul’s language here is so straightforward and free from figurative speech that there is no missing his intent. The Lord WILL NOT leave those of us that are saved by the Blood of the Lamb to endure the horrors of the Tribulation.

IMO, it’s difficult to read and study the Bible and not come to a conclusion that there are going to be two separate events, the rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus.

(Revelation 22:20)

… Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Maranatha!!!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I don't think the Holy Spirit
who has taught me this over the last 51 years
of teaching is going to let me
"reconsider". And yes, it is too harsh to
try to steal the HOPE that is within me.

And I don't think that the Holy Spirit, who has taught me that the pre-trib rapture is false, is going to let me "reconsider" either. So whose "Holy Spirit" is right then, since God cannot contradict Himself?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

john6:63,

There is no two future events of the second advent or coming in the Bible. There is only ONE future coming of Christ.

Ed Edwards,

2 Thess 2:1 does not mean that the "gathering together" and "coming of the Lord" are two separate or different events.

Both cannot separate event.

Look at 1 Thess 4:15-17 tells us, the gathering together CANNOT occur yet till [Bold] Christ coming first![/B]

Also, you saying Matt 24:31 is a rapture.

Most of pretrib baptists in this discussion forum do not agree with you that Matt 24:31 is "pretrib" rapture.

I do partially agree with you that Matt 24:31 is a rapture/gathering together. In fact, Matt 24:31 - rapture/gathering together will be occur [Bold]AFTER[/B] tribulation - Matt 24:29 in the context!

Tell me, how do you know Matt 24:31 is a "pretrib" rapture???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Gunther]

Just to clarify, not all pretribbers believe Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21 have a thing to do with the rapture.

As a pretribber, I totally reject the idea of the rapture there and accept that those taken are taken in judgment. The saved stay.

Incidentally, in I Thess. 4, when the Lord comes, he takes believers away. In this text, he takes unbelievers away. Hmmm, yep. It is two SEPARATE times.

 

[Pete Richert]

Gunther is the man. He never forces the text to fit his preconcieved notions.

Sorry, just had to have a shout out for my boy.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by john6:63:
I believe the problem is solved when we see that there are actually “two” second comings. One is in the air, for the church, commonly known as the rapture. The other is to the world, coming with the church, commonly known as the Second Coming of Jesus. Seeing there are really references to “two” returns of Jesus will solve the Matthew Chapter 24 dilima, as well as much of the rest of prophecy.

The problem with this answer is that the Scriptures don't point to any pre-second coming rapture. If this was a true teaching of Christ, don't you think He would have been a little more straightforward? He seemed to spend quite a bit of time discussing His return and the signs of it. Yet there is not a first and Second Coming of Christ mentioned together anywhere in scripture.

If you had some concrete scriptures that mention both events together, then it would be worth reexamining. But for now it is just restating one of the many tenets of the pretribulation rapture that has little or no biblical evidence.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Just to clarify, not all pretribbers believe Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21 have a thing to do with the rapture.

I dunno - I have a hard time understanding this to mean anything but the rapture - "His elect" especially does not fit the idea of being taken in judgement.

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Pete Richert]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I don't think the Holy Spirit
who has taught me this over the last 51 years
of teaching is going to let me
"reconsider". And yes, it is too harsh to
try to steal the HOPE that is within me.

Harold Camping, the hyper-amilleliel who believes the church age is over, and that everyone should abandon the churhes and stop submitting to the elders (of which the office no longer exists), once remarked that he knew he was correct with his biblical exergesis because "The Holy Spirit led me to believe this. If I was wrong, he would make me uncomfertable until I changed".

On a forum in ez land dedictaed to post-trib theology, one poster remarked, "I thank the Holy Spirit for leading me to the truth and Jesus for leading me to this board where the truth exists!"

Perhaps considering the vast array of godly and learned biblical scholors, pastors, and laymen on both sides of the pre-trib/post-trib/other debate, we should stick with the text and leave the "Holy Spirit taught me" trump card out of it.

 

[john6:63]

If there’s no pre-tribulation rapture, then please explain the following verse:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

persevere is in the past tense, showing it is something that the Christians had already done before the hour of trial, which has not yet come upon the world. The promise is a reward for past perseverance, not the equipping to persevere in the future.

In addition, the ones tested by this hour of trial are not primarily believers, but those who dwell on the earth - whose home is this earth, who are not citizens of heaven (Philippians 3:20).

God tells us that we will be spared from the hour of trial which is going to come upon the whole earth. In fact, nowhere in the Bible do righteous people experience God's wrath. We may have to endure some chastening as disobedient children sometimes, but never the wrath of God. We are told that the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials, and we are given the examples of Noah and Lot to show us that the wrath of God's judgment will only fall after the righteous are taken out of the way:

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. (2 Peter 2:4-9)

God does not say that He will give us strength to endure His wrath, He says that He will rescue us before the coming wrath. This means that the Rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation, which is the appointed time of God's wrath.

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Tim too:
The problem with this answer is that the Scriptures don't point to any pre-second coming rapture. If this was a true teaching of Christ, don't you think He would have been a little more straightforward? He seemed to spend quite a bit of time discussing His return and the signs of it. Yet there is not a first and Second Coming of Christ mentioned together anywhere in scripture.

The phrase caught up in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the English translation of the Greek word harpazo, which means to seize ... catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force) (Strong's Greek Dictionary). This Greek word is translated as rapiemur in the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible. Click here for the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible The word rapiemur is a form of the Latin verb rapere, from which we get the English term Rapture.

So yes, the Rapture is mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Gunther]

I am pretrib. However, this verse does not conclusively prove our position. It could be understood that the Lord keeps his own from the wrath (while leaving them on the earth).

I believe the pretrib take is correct, but if it wasn't, our belief would hardly come crashing down.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Gunther:
Incidentally, in I Thess. 4, when the Lord comes, he takes believers away. In this text, he takes unbelievers away. Hmmm, yep. It is two SEPARATE times.

Read on to chapter 5 Gunther.

There are two separate things happening at the SINGLE event of Christ's Second Coming.

1. The elect are gathered to Him.
2. The wicked are swept away.

These two events are clearly pictured together in Matthew 24 and are not exclusive.

OUR PART IN THE SECOND COMING

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 NIV

THE UNBELIEVER'S PART IN THE SECOND COMING

For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:38-39 NIV

Two things happening, ONE EVENT!

In 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 Paul also describes both aspects of the Second Coming to the Thessalonians.

OUR PART IN THE SECOND COMING

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV

THE UNBELIEVER'S PART IN THE SECOND COMING

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 NIV

Two things happening, ONE EVENT!

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by john6:63:
If there’s no pre-tribulation rapture, then please explain the following verse:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

persevere is in the past tense, showing it is something that the Christians had already done before the hour of trial, which has not yet come upon the world. The promise is a reward for past perseverance, not the equipping to persevere in the future. </font>[/QUOTE]At Christ's second coming those who have persevered, who have kept the faith will be gathered to Christ. The unbelieving and those who don't persevere will be swept away. Also, the phase "keep you from" I am told can be translated "keep you through."

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by john6:63:
The phrase caught up in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the English translation of the Greek word harpazo, which means to seize ... catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force) (Strong's Greek Dictionary). This Greek word is translated as rapiemur in the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible. Click here for the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible The word rapiemur is a form of the Latin verb rapere, from which we get the English term Rapture.

So yes, the Rapture is mentioned in the Bible.

That is a lot of theology built on one word, which by the way is describing our being gathered to the Lord at "the day of the Lord." (1 Thes. 5:2) Rather than taking that one word and building a whole theology out of it, why not take a look at all the references to "the Day of the Lord" and see what that does to the pretrib view.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Tim too:
why not take a look at all the references to "the Day of the Lord" and see what that does to the pretrib view.

Since obviously the tribulation has yet to begin, Paul certainly wasn’t a “date setter” in regard to prophecy, and Jesus forbade setting dates when He said of that day and hour no one knows (Matthew 24:36).

So what does the day of the Lord. (1 Thes. 5:2) do to the pretrib view? Nothing. It proves that neither you nor I will know the time.

 

[Ed Edwards]

2 Peter 3:10 (RSV):
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief,
and then the heavens will pass away with
a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved
with fire, and the earth and the works that
are upon it will be burned up.

Here the day of the Lord is 1,000 years
long (see 2 Peter 3:8, Revelation 20:5).
This kinda blows away the postribs who
are also a-mill. But you dispisationalists
who are postrib: if DAY OF THE LORD and be
1,000 years long, why can't it be 1,007?
Yep, the DAY OF THE LORD includes both
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
and the postribulation rapture/resurrection,
the whole Millennial Kingdom of our Blessed
Lord and Savior: Messiah Yeshua, and probably
some ETC. that we don't know about.
The DAY OF THE LORD is the 1,007+ years
in which our blessed Lord and Savior
(AKA: God): Messiah Iesus shall interfere
in the affairs of humankind.
Praise Jesus!!!!!!!!!

So, how long is THE END TIMES?
Look it up in your Bible