The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

[TFCDR]

So basically you're saying you don't hold Scripture as inerrant and infallible and to be understood as literally written. You hold to liberal reformed approach of interpretation based on symbolism and alleghory where you make it say what you need it to, to support your position.

In Christ
Joe

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
So basically you're saying you don't hold Scripture as inerrant and infallible and to be understood as literally written. You hold to liberal reformed approach of interpretation based on symbolism and alleghory where you make it say what you need it to, to support your position.

In Christ
Joe

No, I'm saying that I take scripture to be inerrant and infallible. I take scripture to be literal unless scripture itself gives me reason to think otherwise.

Whenever scripture uses obvious simile, metaphor, other poetic languge, parables, etc., I take those to be simile, metaphor, other poetic language and parables. These are all easily recognized. The text comes right out and tells you when something is a parable. The language identifies a simile (something is like something), and so on.

I'm not the one twisting scripture -- in fact, you have to deny what scripture says to make these things (simile, metaphor, parables) literal. You have to pretend the "like" is not there. You have to ignore the fact that Jesus identified a story as a parable. This is what you've done.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #1: If the rapture occurs at the second coming, who will populate the millennium?

If Christ is going to be here for 1000 years we will too because we will be with the Lord forever.
I would suppose that in the 1000 years that we reign with the Lord we would do some populating.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thess. 4:17 NIV

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #2: Why is the rapture missing from Rev. 19:11-23?

I agree with npetreley here, but also because “rapture” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #3: Who is gathered first, the wicked (Matt. 13:30, 49) or the righteous (1 Thess. 4:16-17)?

Us then the wicked, or maybe both at the same time. God is not limited to our time constraints.

"Immediately after the distress of those days "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Matthew 24:29-41 NIV

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #4 Since Christians will be rewarded (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4, Luke 14:14), how can the 24 elders in heaven already have their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10) if the rapture hasn't taken place?

Where does it say that you have to wait for the rapture to get a crown?
How do you know that Paul is not talking about his death? He just says that day, not the rapture and he is talking, according to the context about his death. Peter says when the Chief Shepherd appears we will receive a crown, but what if we die and are with Him before that day? We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:7 NIV

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #5: Why do the sheep and goats need to be separated if they are already separated by a rapture at the second coming (Matt. 25:31-33)?

This passage is talking more about the criteria to separate the sheep and the goats than the details of the second coming.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #6: At the end of the millennium, where do the non-Christians come from(Rev. 20:7-10)?

Those who were deceived by Satan after He is released at the end of the 1000 years.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #7: How can Jesus return from the wedding if the wedding hasn't taken place (Luke 12:36)?

I don’t read in this passage where Jesus says He is the man returning from the wedding. It looks like an example of readiness to me.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #8: Who is the "one who restrains" that must be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed (2 Thess. 2:7)?

The Bible doesn’t tell us who specifically it is. But say, for the sake of argument that it is the Holy Spirit as pretribbers say. How can anyone be saved during the tribulation if the Holy Spirit is taken out with the church?

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Question #9: Jesus promised He would prepare a place for Christians in heaven, then would return to take us there (John 14:2-3). According to the post-tribulation theory, Jesus returns to earth and stays here with the Church. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there?

This is a mute question if we believe in the millennium and I believe both positions do. We will be with Jesus forever as stated above, so if He is here for 1000 years we will be here for a 1000 years. Are pretribbers going to be hanging out in Heaven without Christ for the millennium?

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Care to explain the OBVIOUS parallels between the explanation of the Rapture by Paul, the doctrine of the Pre-Trib Rapture AND the traditional Jewish Wedding ceremony (process)?

Because of the OBVIOUS problems listed with the first post of this thread I have rejected the Pre-Trib Rapture and unbiblical so I haven’t spent a lot of time studying what Pre-Tribbers think are OBVIOUS parallels.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
So basically you're saying you don't hold Scripture as inerrant and infallible and to be understood as literally written.

Are you suggesting that you hold that Revelation, which is Scripture, is to be interpreted literally and not as apocalyptic?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[TFCDR]

Ah, so even though Christ explained His parables and they aligned with doctrinal issues, traditional issues and doctrinal concepts, by your account we are to take them only as stories and not a timeless method of understanding truth in a means humans can comprehend. In essence because something can be simply understood, it shouldn't be?

In Christ
Joe

 

[TFCDR]

Originally posted by Tim too:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TFCDR:
So basically you're saying you don't hold Scripture as inerrant and infallible and to be understood as literally written.

Are you suggesting that you hold that Revelation, which is Scripture, is to be interpreted literally and not as apocalyptic?

In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]This is how I see it, the "Golden Rule of Interpretation":

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning, unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.

So to answer your question, yes I do. If it's symbolic in nature look to Scripture for it's definition for there you will find it. Simple.

In Christ
Joe

 

[TFCDR]

OK, let's start with the first two...and the problems with post trib:

If Christ is going to be here for 1000 years we will too because we will be with the Lord forever.I would suppose that in the 1000 years that we reign with the Lord we would do some populating.

Yes WE will too....HOWEVER that doesn't answer the question. Take a look in Isaiah when he's describing the conditions of life during the Millennium...if someone dies at 100 they are still a babe, this implies there will be people during the millennium in their natural bodies(you know, the survivors of the Tribulation). Hmmm...can a saint in a glorified body die? Don't think so. If everyone is raptured at the end of the Tribulation and everyone gets a glorified body, the post-trib position has a problem...the prophecy in Isaiah is then false. Furthermore, what does it say in Matthew about marriage and thereby procreation? We will be like the angels who don't do that. So the glorified saints during the millennium WON'T be re-populating the earth as it requires a natural body. Furthermore you run into the issue of the final rebellion at the end of the 1000 years...

Question #2: Why is the rapture missing from Rev. 19:11-23?


I agree with npetreley here, but also because “rapture” doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible.

1. Rapture Is Not in the Bible


The first lie is the assertion that the rapture is not really in the Bible. Some-body will always bring up the argument, “If you look up the word ‘rapture’ in the concordance, it isn’t there.” So, they conclude that the Bible really doesn’t teach the idea of the rapture.


Remember that a concept can be taught in the Bible without the word actually appearing. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in the Bible — the Triune God, consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But there is no reference to the word “Trinity” in the Bible. The same is true of the word “Sunday,” which is referred to as “the Lord’s Day.”


The idea of the rapture is clearly taught in Scripture. In I Thessalonians 4:13-17, the Scripture says, “The dead in Christ will be raised up, and we that are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” The term “caught up” is a reference to the rapture. In the original language of the Greek New Testament, it is the word harpazo. Harpazo means to be “caught away” or “snatched away” — to literally disappear. That word is used in the Bible for the rapture. The English word “rapture” comes from the Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo as rapere or rapto in Latin. It refers to the same idea, the catching away of the people that are part of the Bride of Christ.


The concept of the rapture is clearly taught in the Bible. It does not matter what your view of eschatology is; at some point you have to include the rapture. You might differ as to whether you think it is pre-, mid-, or post-tribulational. But there has to be a rapture. I Thessalonians 4 says there must be a time when the dead in Christ, a unique term for the Bride of Christ, the Church, are raised, and we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

(from an article by Dr Hindson).

In Christ
Joe

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Ah, so even though Christ explained His parables and they aligned with doctrinal issues, traditional issues and doctrinal concepts, by your account we are to take them only as stories and not a timeless method of understanding truth in a means humans can comprehend. In essence because something can be simply understood, it shouldn't be?

In Christ
Joe

Okay, you're beginning to drive me batty with your misrepresentation of the issues. I hope it is not intentional misrepresentation and you are simply misled, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but it is no less irritating.

To use your example of the sheep and goats. You ask, why would Jesus have to separate the sheep from the goats if they've already been separated at the rapture? The question makes no sense whatsoever, and we can see that by looking at the passage with some of the context:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

First of all, didn't you see the word "as"? Again, this is a simile. It says, "as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats". Why make the comparison? Well, ask yourself: why does a shepard separate the sheep from the goats? Because the shepard has different intentions for the goats than for the sheep. So the "separation" only illustrates that some of them are destined for one purpose, and the others are destined for another purpose. So Jesus gave you the clue as to the intended meaning by using the simile. That's what similes are for.

Second, the parable starts with "When the Son of Man comes in his glory ... he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him..."

I challenge you to find a pre-trib scenario where the raptured saints have to be separated from the unsaved in heaven, and explain why this parable must therefore describe a pre-trib scenario. You can't, because the parable has nothing whatsoever to do with the timing of the rapture. Either way, you've got saved and unsaved in heaven together. When they got there is irrelevant.

The fact is, point of this passage has nothing to do with the chronology of the end times. The point of this parable is illlustrated clearly in the remainder of the text...

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[TFCDR]

Second, the parable starts with "When the Son of Man comes in his glory ... he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him..."

Here is the crux of your misunderstanding, if I understand your intent correctly.

You are placing this judgment of the nations in heaven and not on earth where it belongs. The throne upon which Christ is sitting is David's throne as promised in the Old Testament. In heavenly glory...self explanitory...remember the transfiguration? Was that not "heavenly glory"?

The people being separated during the separation of the sheep and goats (as a shepherd would) Christ is separating those who were faithful through the Tribulation (those who will populate the millennium) from those who took the mark etc. That's the separation being spoken of. Remember, the Raptured saints RETURNED with Christ. IF the rapture occured at the end of the Tribulation there's no one to separate, they already had been, plus then there's the sticky problem about who populates the millenium.

In Christ
Joe

 

[Trotter]

Yo, Joe! Right on the money, dude!

Sorry, but I am just about sick of the whole thing. I know what I believe, and why I believe it, but I'm tired of the endless nit-picking. It's like a guy in high school (oh so long ago) who would take anything you say and try to make an arguement about it.

Rminds me of some Scripture...
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Ed Edwards]

I judge that De Haan is a prophet for profit.
I am not. So i trust my reading of
the scripture over his. In fact, i'd rather trust
in Brother Tim_too's understanding of the
scripture than De Haan.
I can always hope Brother Tim_too understands
the scripture better than De Haan

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Here is the crux of your misunderstanding, if I understand your intent correctly.

You are placing this judgment of the nations in heaven and not on earth where it belongs. The throne upon which Christ is sitting is David's throne as promised in the Old Testament. In heavenly glory...self explanitory...remember the transfiguration? Was that not "heavenly glory"?

The people being separated during the separation of the sheep and goats (as a shepherd would) Christ is separating those who were faithful through the Tribulation (those who will populate the millennium) from those who took the mark etc. That's the separation being spoken of. Remember, the Raptured saints RETURNED with Christ. IF the rapture occured at the end of the Tribulation there's no one to separate, they already had been, plus then there's the sticky problem about who populates the millenium.

In Christ
Joe

Now here is an ironic twist if ever I saw one -- especially after you suggested that I do not respect the inerrancy of the Bible.

The text says...

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Now, I see this as the beginning of the parable, so I don't expect the illustration to be an exact representations of what happens. But you seem to want it to be absolutely literal, so according to you, this text demands that the sheep and goats are brought before Jesus on His throne in heaven, and separated to the left and right of Jesus on His throne in heaven. Not separated to the left and right hemispheres of the earth, but to His left and right.

But according to you, this is taking place on earth (even though it doesn't say that), and what this really means is that Jesus is separating the people who were raptured from the people who took the mark of the beast. Now, the text doesn't even hint at any of these "details" and your assertion that it takes place on earth directly contradicts the text.

So, here's the end result: The crux of "my misunderstanding" is that I read the text exactly as it is written. Obviously, according to you, this means my view must be wrong because I didn't agree with all the extra stuff you changed in the text and added to the text.

 

[npetreley]

Sorry, I meant to say "people who were faithful through the tribulation vs. etc..." not people who were raptured. Either way, the text doesn't suggest any such details.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
OK, let's start with the first two...and the problems with post trib:

Why don't you deal with the problems that have been listed for the Pre-Trib rapture? That is what this thread was originally started for.

You could also start a new thread with the problems you see with the post-trib view.

Originally posted by Tim too, edited problem #5:
Here are some of the issues that caused me to question my belief in a pre-trib rapture.

1. There is a problem with the concept of wrath vs. tribulation. One of the key tenets of the pre-trib position is that God did not appoint the church to suffer wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9) This is true the church is not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. There is a difference in God’s wrath and the Biblical concept of tribulation. Wrath is from God on disobedient men and tribulation is what the church suffers at the hands of the world. Jesus said that in this world we would have tribulation. (John 16:33) Notice that in Revelation the wrath of God is not poured out until after the tribulation, after the sixth seal is broken. (Revelation 6:15-17, Matt 24:29)

2. Signs in the heavens. There are two major signs that accompany the return of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said He would send His angels into the four corners of the world to gather His elect. (Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-28, Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

3. The phrase Paul uses to describe our being gathered to Christ is “the day of the Lord.” (1 Cor 5:4, 2 Cor 1:14, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Thes 2:2-3 This day is tied in scripture to the signs that appear in the heavens. (Isai 13:6-10, Joel 2:31, Zeph 1:14-15, Acts 2:20, 2 Peter 3:10) There is no mention of the word rapture in the Bible but there is the day of the Lord.

4. There are a couple of problems with the pretrib interpretation of 2 Thes 2:1-12. First, Paul says that we will not even be gathered to the Lord until the great apostasy comes and the Antichrist is revealed. According to the pretrib view we are not going to be here when the anti-christ is revealed because his appearing is in the middle of the 7 years of the tribulation. If the pretrib view of the Holy Spirit being restrainer in this passage is correct and the restrainer is removed when the church is raptured who is going to draw all of those people who are saved out of the tribulation? This passage alone is enough to cause someone to have serious questions about the pretrib rapture.

5. Problems with numbers. The pretrib view of the rapture says that the raptured church is shown in Revelation 5:8-14. There is a problem with the numbers here. In verse 11 there is given a number for those are worshipping, ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands and thousands. However, the number of those saved out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7:9-14 is so big that no one is able to number it. So essentially, 10,000 X 10,000 = 100,000,000 plus thousands and thousands from the time Christ went back to the Father’s right hand until the rapture, but then in three and half years more people come to Christ than can be numbered. It doesn’t add up.

6. Problem with the names in the Revelation 5:8-14 passage. This passage calls the 10,000 X 10,000 and thousands and thousands “angels.” We are not angels. This cannot be the church. However, the innumerable group of people that are worshipping the Lamb in Revelation 7:9-14 are called the “the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” This great number of people is definitely the church.

7. The problem with the calls to persevere in Revelation. (Rev 13:10, Rev 14:12) Both of the references listed are given after describing the antichrist and the mark. Why would there be such warnings if we were not going to be here?


Finally, which position would be most to Satan’s advantage? If the rapture is true then there is no damage done by believing otherwise. If you are a Christian you are still going to be raptured. However if the rapture is not true there is real danger. Believers are not going to be looking the antichrist or the mark. They could be deceived into taking the mark. Those who take the mark are under the same judgment as unbelievers.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Trotter:
Rminds me of some Scripture...
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In Christ,
Trotter

Are you trying to imply something brother Trotter?


It is a slippery slope to start down, implying that people are false teachers just because their theology doesn't match or questions yours.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[TFCDR]

Now, I see this as the beginning of the parable, so I don't expect the illustration to be an exact representations of what happens. But you seem to want it to be absolutely literal, so according to you, this text demands that the sheep and goats are brought before Jesus on His throne in heaven, and separated to the left and right of Jesus on His throne in heaven. Not separated to the left and right hemispheres of the earth, but to His left and right.

But according to you, this is taking place on earth (even though it doesn't say that), and what this really means is that Jesus is separating the people who were raptured from the people who took the mark of the beast. Now, the text doesn't even hint at any of these "details" and your assertion that it takes place on earth directly contradicts the text.

How so np? Christ returns WITH His saints (Rev 19:11)...destroys satan and crew...assumes the throne of David (remember...OT promise and prophecy)...by the way you need to remember He's now here on earth (Second Coming), he's sitting on his throne in heavenly glory (can you picture Christ after the Second Coming any other way) and then he judges the nations. Exactly the same order of the text, in context. You have Him being a yo-yo....down to earth for the second coming...back up to his throne to judge...back to earth to rule...yikes!

In Christ
Joe

 

[TFCDR]

Hi Tim, no problem. Give me a bit to go over it and write a proper rebuttal/refutation of those claims instead of a hasty one. Those seven points are very easy to show the real deal.

In Christ
Joe

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Tim too:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Trotter:
Rminds me of some Scripture...
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In Christ,
Trotter

Are you trying to imply something brother Trotter?


It is a slippery slope to start down, implying that people are false teachers just because their theology doesn't match or questions yours.

In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]That is right Brother Tim_too!

If we Christians don't love each other,
nobody else will.

Reminds me of a joke.

A Jumper Cable goes into a bar.
Says the Barkeeper: "All right,
i'll serve you -- But don't you
start something!"

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Npetreley: would you
please explaine the concepts and/or principles
illustrated by the "Parable of the
Sheep and Goats"? Thank you.
This teaching, which you might
call the "Parable of
the Sheep and Goats" is found in Matthew 24:31-48.

Brother TFCDR: thank you for the drive-by pot shots
at the KJVo-you-knows

WE do have an unwritten rule here I like to call

NO BURNING STRAWEMEN

Anyway, here we just argue and/or discuss those points
brought out by others. We don't bring in strawmen
from outside even though we can burn them
real nicely.

And welcome Brother TFCDR to the Baptist Board (BB)!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tim too: "Finally, which position would be
most to Satan’s advantage?"

Bad question. The truth is the truth
no matter if it helps or hurts Satan.