The quickening

[Van]

Talk about going round the bend. Now the advocates of the nameless doctrine say there is no need for preaching, unless a person accepts the bogus doctrine of "initial quickening". OTOH, scripture says the gospel is the power of God for salvation. When a person hears and understands, they are drawn to Christ. Therefore, scripture teaches we are to present the gospel to the whole world.

 

[Van]

Since it is a fiction not found in scripture, the advocates debate the concept without any reference to scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

The problem, if I may say so, with the view that there is no difference between quickening and the New Birth is that it effectively obliterates the need for Gospel preaching. Either someone is dead in trespasses and sins and cannot respond to the Gospel, or he is already born again and doesn't need the Gospel. IMO it is far better to pray that there are in our congregations those whom God has awakened to the Gospel but who have not yet responded in repentance and faith, and that He will use our poor words to bring them to salvation.

o

I look at it differently. The gospel is first brought to the outer ear and there the process of worldly sorrow begins to occur due to the natural convicting power of the Word. However, when it is God's time to quicken us, he takes the word that has already been delivered, already has begun its process of condemnation and then quickens us.

Significantly, worldly sorrow causes conviction unto self-condemnation and death. However godly sorrow worketh salvation in that quickening is unto justification. So the Word begins a process of painful conviction that condemns and can turn into depression, but godly sorrow (repentance unto faith) turns the direction upward from the downward spiral toward depression and death to justification and hope.

These testimonies of six months or even years of miserable conviction I believe is worldly sorrow taking its natural course in it downward spiral. Qucikening changes the direction upward immediately through faith in the "good" news and "hope" found in the gospel

 

[Yeshua1]

Talk about going round the bend. Now the advocates of the nameless doctrine say there is no need for preaching, unless a person accepts the bogus doctrine of "initial quickening". OTOH, scripture says the gospel is the power of God for salvation. When a person hears and understands, they are drawn to Christ. Therefore, scripture teaches we are to present the gospel to the whole world.

All sinners can hear, but unless they are quicken by the Spirit, it falls upon deaf ears!

 

[Van]

Yet another denial of scripture. Matthew 13 teaches that 3 of the four soils can hear and respond, but one soil cannot understand. The "quicken by the Spirit" is used because it has a double meaning. When we are made alive, when God puts us in Christ spiritually, we are made alive (quickened) by the Spirit. But that is not what the advocate of false theology means, no the "secret" meaning, never found in scripture, is that unless a sinner is altered by "irresistible grace" they cannot seek God or trust in Christ.
But that whole hidden meaning is false, and no where to be found in scripture. So they use doublespeak.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another denial of scripture. Matthew 13 teaches that 3 of the four soils can hear and respond, but one soil cannot understand. The "quicken by the Spirit" is used because it has a double meaning. When we are made alive, when God puts us in Christ spiritually, we are made alive (quickened) by the Spirit. But that is not what the advocate of false theology means, no the "secret" meaning, never found in scripture, is that unless a sinner is altered by "irresistible grace" they cannot seek God or trust in Christ.
But that whole hidden meaning is false, and no where to be found in scripture. So they use doublespeak.

Both Jesus and paul spoke to this, and they agreed with me and not you, were they both wrong?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

o

I look at it differently. The gospel is first brought to the outer ear and there the process of worldly sorrow begins to occur due to the natural convicting power of the Word. However, when it is God's time to quicken us, he takes the word that has already been delivered, already has begun its process of condemnation and then quickens us.

Significantly, worldly sorrow causes conviction unto self-condemnation and death. However godly sorrow worketh salvation in that quickening is unto justification. So the Word begins a process of painful conviction that condemns and can turn into depression, but godly sorrow (repentance unto faith) turns the direction upward from the downward spiral toward depression and death to justification and hope.

These testimonies of six months or even years of miserable conviction I believe is worldly sorrow taking its natural course in it downward spiral. Qucikening changes the direction upward immediately through faith in the "good" news and "hope" found in the gospel

With respect, I think the urgent searching of the awakened soul cannot really be described as 'worldly sorrow.'

 

[Van]

Both Jesus and paul spoke to this, and they agreed with me and not you, were they both wrong?

Both Jesus and Paul agree with my view, and they were not wrong. Notice the absence of any reference to scripture to support this claimed agreement with falsehood?

In Matthew 13,Jesus teaches that 3 of the four soils can hear and respond, but one soil cannot understand. The "quicken by the Spirit" is used because it has a double meaning. When we are made alive, when God puts us in Christ spiritually, we are made alive (quickened) by the Spirit. But that is not what the advocate of false theology means, no the "secret" meaning, never found in scripture, is that unless a sinner is altered by "irresistible grace" they cannot seek God or trust in Christ.
But that whole hidden meaning is false, and no where to be found in scripture. So they use doublespeak.

 

[The Biblicist]

With respect, I think the urgent searching of the awakened soul cannot really be described as 'worldly sorrow.'

A disturbed soul is a soul under conviction. A quickened soul is spiritually alive in Christ but outside of Christ there is no spiritual life at all. The new birth is the spirit of man being united with the Spirit of God. I guess we will have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[Rlee]

As I read your posts, I do not see you using your favorite word to mean to make alive, but rather to compel someone to believe in Christ. Not what the word means, as used in scripture.

In my initial post, I am primarily referencing the moment(s) where God was opening the blinded eye and causing me/us to see the need for Christ. Is it not possible to see that perhaps as a step to being made alive where we were once dead? Is it not a point at which we suddenly understand that He is reaching down to us and our mortal bodies respond with the proverbial "light coming on"? I certainly didn't intend for it to sound like an appeal to come to Christ, but rather the actual coming to or perhaps better said, arriving at Christ. The point at which the Father's calling us to the Son becomes real and takes hold. In my personal opinion, this is a paramount moment in the life of a believer because without it, what would we have to fall back on when recounting our individual memories of salvation? No one is born into the faith through their family, it isn't given to them by physical inheritance, nor is it assumed simply because one attends a local body. Does anyone really just wake up one day and say to themselves "I think I'll go down to church today and get saved." Yes they do! I've had it said to my face and yet without that calling of the Father, without the ability to see the need for the Savior and repentance in the heart, it's all done in folly. Again, Ephesians 2 spells it out and I don't believe I have contradicted that.

 

[Rlee]

As I read your posts, I do not see you using your favorite word to mean to make alive, but rather to compel someone to believe in Christ. Not what the word means, as used in scripture.

Why don't we start over. Let's forget everything anyone has said following my first post and let me ask you, what would you have entitled this thread?

 

[Yeshua1]

Both Jesus and Paul agree with my view, and they were not wrong. Notice the absence of any reference to scripture to support this claimed agreement with falsehood?

In Matthew 13,Jesus teaches that 3 of the four soils can hear and respond, but one soil cannot understand. The "quicken by the Spirit" is used because it has a double meaning. When we are made alive, when God puts us in Christ spiritually, we are made alive (quickened) by the Spirit. But that is not what the advocate of false theology means, no the "secret" meaning, never found in scripture, is that unless a sinner is altered by "irresistible grace" they cannot seek God or trust in Christ.
But that whole hidden meaning is false, and no where to be found in scripture. So they use doublespeak.

Jesus stated that ONLY those whom the father draw unto Him will get saved, and that ONLY those whom the Spirit enables to receive Him shall!

 

[Van]

Why don't we start over. Let's forget everything anyone has said following my first post and let me ask you, what would you have entitled this thread?

I think the "Conviction" matches your opening post, rather than quickening, which means something else entirely.

BTW, I looked over Ephesians 2 and found no support for your premise. The chapter teaches us that we started out not in Christ, separate from Christ, in darkness as the rest of mankind. But, through faith, made us alive together with Christ. So the chapter is dealing with what happens after we put our faith in Christ, and your premise deals with our conviction Christ is our God and our Savior.

NET Bible Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

 

[Van]

Jesus stated that ONLY those whom the father draw unto Him will get saved, and that ONLY those whom the Spirit enables to receive Him shall!

Yet another false claim, scripture never, never, ever says "only those the Spirit enables to receive Him shall get saved." In fact ;the opposite is taught, we all start out with the ability to receive and accept the gospel, but then some of us are hardened (1 soil of Matthew 13 and those God hardens, Romans 11). In Matthew 13, Jesus teaches in parables so that people will not understand and get saved. In Romans 11 God hardens the hearts of unbelieving Jews, which would not be needed if they had no innate ability to hear and learn from the gospel.

 

[Rlee]

I think the "Conviction" matches your opening post, rather than quickening, which means something else entirely.

BTW, I looked over Ephesians 2 and found no support for your premise. The chapter teaches us that we started out not in Christ, separate from Christ, in darkness as the rest of mankind. But, through faith, made us alive together with Christ. So the chapter is dealing with what happens after we put our faith in Christ, and your premise deals with our conviction Christ is our God and our Savior.

NET Bible Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

I suppose what I was trying to convey is that conviction always precedes salvation, does it not? Yes, conviction is probably a better label, but that conviction was followed by salvation. Perhaps I was combining the two terms without giving it enough thought. Basically, it was the experience or maybe the "journey" to salvation that began with conviction and ended with being saved. I'm curious. Would you say the preaching of or the presenting of the gospel causes conviction, or is it one's own ability to comprehend the gospel?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another false claim, scripture never, never, ever says "only those the Spirit enables to receive Him shall get saved." In fact ;the opposite is taught, we all start out with the ability to receive and accept the gospel, but then some of us are hardened (1 soil of Matthew 13 and those God hardens, Romans 11). In Matthew 13, Jesus teaches in parables so that people will not understand and get saved. In Romans 11 God hardens the hearts of unbelieving Jews, which would not be needed if they had no innate ability to hear and learn from the gospel.

the unsaved sinner cannot receive the Gospel, nor any other spiritual thing apart from the person of the Holy Spirit enabling him to do such, as per Paul!

 

[Van]

the unsaved sinner cannot receive the Gospel, nor any other spiritual thing apart from the person of the Holy Spirit enabling him to do such, as per Paul!

Yet another false claim, with no scripture to support it. Matthew 13 teaches of 3 types of people (soils 2, 3 and 4) that can receive the gospel. A lost person cannot receive spiritual meat, because indwelling is required to understand spiritual meat, but can receive spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. That is why Paul spoke to those no ready for spiritual meat using spiritual milk, as he would to men of flesh (unsaved.)

 

[Van]

I suppose what I was trying to convey is that conviction always precedes salvation, does it not? Yes, conviction is probably a better label, but that conviction was followed by salvation. Perhaps I was combining the two terms without giving it enough thought. Basically, it was the experience or maybe the "journey" to salvation that began with conviction and ended with being saved. I'm curious. Would you say the preaching of or the presenting of the gospel causes conviction, or is it one's own ability to comprehend the gospel?

Yes, being convicted that we were wretched sinners always precedes salvation (God crediting our faith as righteousness and transferring us out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. While the gospel is the power of God for salvation, all scripture can be used to convict us. That is why scripture says the Law acts as a guide to lead us to Christ. And we cannot leave out the role of the Holy Spirit in our conviction. But no where in scripture to we find that the Holy Spirit compels pre-selected individuals to believe, that view is a fiction.

As far as our individual ability, Matthew 13 teaches that some people, the first soil, no longer have the ability to understand the gospel, but OTOH teaches that all the rest do have that ability. But without the message (such as the Spirit inspired gospel of Christ) no one would be convicted.


2 Timothy 3:15-17 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another false claim, with no scripture to support it. Matthew 13 teaches of 3 types of people (soils 2, 3 and 4) that can receive the gospel. A lost person cannot receive spiritual meat, because indwelling is required to understand spiritual meat, but can receive spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. That is why Paul spoke to those no ready for spiritual meat using spiritual milk, as he would to men of flesh (unsaved.)

Spiritual milk and meat , as defined by paul, ONLY refers to saved persons, as those still lost receive not any spiritual things of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, being convicted that we were wretched sinners always precedes salvation (God crediting our faith as righteousness and transferring us out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. While the gospel is the power of God for salvation, all scripture can be used to convict us. That is why scripture says the Law acts as a guide to lead us to Christ. And we cannot leave out the role of the Holy Spirit in our conviction. But no where in scripture to we find that the Holy Spirit compels pre-selected individuals to believe, that view is a fiction.

As far as our individual ability, Matthew 13 teaches that some people, the first soil, no longer have the ability to understand the gospel, but OTOH teaches that all the rest do have that ability. But without the message (such as the Spirit inspired gospel of Christ) no one would be convicted.


2 Timothy 3:15-17 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

You really do mot understand what is meant in those references!