The Rapture and My Baptist Family

Hi Deborah,
Thanks for posting. I enjoyed both your posts. I consider myself a partial-preterist as well.
I was also raised premil/pretrib and have had to spend many hours trying to extricate myself from that viewpoint. It's proponents are many and are fully persuaded.
That said, the theological concepts presented in the article I linked to have intrigued me due to it's OT prophetic foundation and it's NT fulfillment. The God of the OT is the Christ of the NT. I enjoy seeing how God incorporates the redemptive themes of history throughout the whole of Scripture.
I can't disagree with what you've posted because I haven't studied it from that angle.
But thanks again for being a voice that speaks above the overwhelming tide of dispensational theology. It truly is refreshing.

 

That is about how I feel at this point in time. I have heard enough other theories to put doubts in my mind about the pre trib theory. They are all theories, and none can be proven with any certainty. The issue does not seem that important to me anymore.

 

God's Economy (Dispensation) in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of

God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).

 

The discussion about 'pre-wrath' is interesting:

1. I'm a pretribulation rapturist - The Tribulation
is when the Wrath of The Lamb starts.
So I'm pretrib & prewrath1
The middle of the Tribulation is when the
Wrath of God starts.
At the end of the Physical Millennial Messanic
Kingdom is when the 'Eternal Death' Wrath
of God finishes (the 'Eternal Death' Wrath
of God started at His Second Coming
at the end of the Tribulation).

2. Some people say at Mid-Tribulation
God's Wrath starts - they are pre-wrath2

3. Some people say at the start of the
the 'Eternal Death' Wrath of God at the
Second Coming is when the wrath starts -
they are pre-wrath3.

4. Some people say at the end of the
(physical &/or spiritual) Messanic Kingdom
that the the 'Eternal Death' Wrath
of God will come -- they are pre-wrath4.

5. Spirituals (interpret the Bible as Spiritual) also
are Pre-Wrath5. Wrath5 is a spiritual state.

All these groups have read these scriptures:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For God hath not appointed vs vnto wrath,
but to obtaine saluation by the meanes
of our Lord Iesus Christ,



Come to think of it, everybody is Pre-WrathX.
So IMHO saying one is pre-wrath doesn't tell any more about
the person's beliefs than saying one is 'non-denominational.
There ain't no such animal as non-denominational -
everybody got a denomination - even zero is something
(but not much )

Even Spiritualist A-Millinnial, A-Tribulation, a-Choo!
are Pre-Wrath(something)

Spiritualist - all prophecies of the Bible are to be understood
as spiritual, not necessarily physical.
A-Millinnial - The Millinnial Messanic Kingdom is spiritual in nature.
(two groups: A-Tribulation, post-tribulation physical 2ed Coming)
A-Tribulation - the Tribulation is a feature of the Church Age
in this world you will have tribulation .
A-choo! - that was a mouthful of 'ah's

Anyway, the bottom line is that if you start with what is
in the Bible, there are multiple solutions possible --
Your Future is what you make of it with God's Help.

Speaking of Spiritual Gifts, I think there is more can be
found about the Spiritual Gift of Martyrdom than the
Spiritual Gift of singleness, Spiritual Gift of singing,
Spiritual Gift of musical leading , or Spiritual Gift of insturment playing.

 

I used to be (1952) firmly on the side
of a pre-trib rapture. However, 55 years
later (2007) I'm surer about that hope
than I used to be!

 

Hello Isaiah40:28,

>The God of the OT is the Christ of the NT

Well said! and Amen ~

>I enjoy seeing how God incorporates the redemptive themes of history throughout the whole of Scripture.

What a wonderful way of expressing it! And, likewise, how God incorporates the redemptive themes of the Gospel throughout the whole of history!

In the Master's Service,
Deborah

 

Amen, brother Ed, preach it :thumbs:

 

There is, indeed, a rapture at the end of the MK so that God can "rebirth" the earth into the "New Heavens and New Earth." Otherwise, God would have to consume the bodies of beleivers and there would be a 2nd death unto those to whom were promised no 2nd death!

However, 1Cor 15:23-24 speaks of 3 main raptures: 1) Christ the firstfruits, 2) pretrib ("at His coming" per John 14:1-4), and 3) post MK (when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the Father).

skypair

 

Rapture without Resurrection?

Hello Skypair,

>There is, indeed, a rapture at the end of the MK so that God can "rebirth" the earth into the "New Heavens and New Earth." Otherwise, God would have to consume the bodies of beleivers and there would be a 2nd death unto those to whom were promised no 2nd death!

I agree. But in my eyes the kingdom that the Scriptures consistently speak of Jesus reigning over during the "millennium" that lapses between his first coming and his second, is the Kingdom of God, which is heaven, which has already come.

There is only one "rapture" that I am aware of, and it refers to what happens to the body of those in Christ who are still alive on the day of the resurrection. It is the resurrection of which Jesus is the "firstfruits."

In Christ,
Deborah

 

Here's something to think about --- there was the kingdom of man from Adam to Jesus -- the kingdom of the Spirit from Christ to His 2nd coming -- the kingdom of Christ when He rules on the earth --- and finally the kingdom of God on earth after He renovates the earth and casts death and hell into the lake of fire.

What kingdom do YOU see before Christ?

Well, you actually just named 2: 1) Christ and 2) the day of the resurrection.

skypair

 

Hello Skypair,

Allow me to clarify the point I was making about there being only one rapture.

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” 1 Corinthians 15:22-23

That passage speaks of two resurrections, that of Jesus and later, much later, that of those who are dead in Christ at his 2nd Advent. Nothing is said about the rapture of the living saints in this passage, but this teaching focuses on the literal, bodily resurrection as a sure and certain hope for the believer with the resurrection of Jesus as the guarantee upon which our hope rests.

The passage which does teach on the rapture of the living saints at the 2nd Advent of Christ says:

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds . . .

Here Paul was again teaching about the resurrection of the believers at the 2nd Advent of Christ, and he adds that those who have not died yet and therefore cannot be “resurrected” but are in fact still alive when the Lord returns, they will be “raptured,” or “caught up” in the clouds with the resurrected saints.

There is no other rapture of saints spoken of in Scripture besides that of the 2nd Advent, when the living saints are raptured immediately after the dead are resurrected.

>What kingdom do YOU see before Christ?

If by that you mean what do I see as the “Kingdom of God on earth”?

Before Christ? That would be Old Testament, the people of Israel:

“And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people; for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.” Exodus 19:3-6a

Since Christ? That would be New Testament, the church:

“Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” Colossians 1:12-13

The Kingdom of Christ, or "Messianic (Christian) Kingdom" or the "Millennial (between the 2nd Advents) Kingdom is ~ the Father's Kingdom with Christ seated with the Father on His throne and given all power and all authority over all things, the only exception to Jesus' rule is . . . the Father Himself.


In Christ,
Deborah

 

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections:

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)

Five Resurrections: Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2004 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

405 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:

1. Resurrection of Jesus
​

WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8

2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
​

WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God,
especially those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
(mostly Gentiles)
​

WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 6 Oct 2007;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
(mostly Israeli)
​

WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
​

WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead
(i.e. one and only one resurrection - this shows that
God is going to do a lot of resurrection NOT that God
is limited to one and only one resurrection, but that
God is a Resurrecting God):
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Thanks for remembering our brothers and sisters in Christ

who are being persecuted today for their faith of the Lord Jesus Christ. They are willing to suffer for Him because they love Him. One of these days they will be able to lay before their King the martrys crown!

The Lord has not given us the exact day that He is coming but, we do know He promised to come again. The pre-trib teaching was never in the writings of the early church fathers, the Bible, authors before 1830! What a track record! And on this thread we read of those who no longer believe the pre-trib view. It would be fun to find out what verse really stood out that showed you that you could not adhere to the pre-trib doctrine? Would you like to share as did the starter of this thread did namely, righteousdude2!

 

//It would be fun to find out what verse really stood out that showed you that you could not adhere to the pre-trib doctrine?//

Amen!

//The pre-trib teaching was never in the writings of the early church fathers, the Bible, authors before 1830! What a track record!//

Strange, I use the writings of Paul, the sayings of Jesus
in Matthew, Peter, John, Mark, and Luke.
didn't they come before 1830?

BTW, history teaches me that most authors don't
write their best stuff at first but later.
The eschatological writings of John Nelson Darby
date from 1845, not 1827-1830.
In 1827-1830 JN Darby was forming his ecclesiology
as a Church of England Priest.
In 1838-1845 he was a Plymouth Brethern Missionary
in Switzerland & France forming his eschatology
THAT FIT WITH HIS ECCLESIOLOGY.

I also found some interesting history that it was
about 1936-1956 when the leading writings of
the Post-tribulation Rapture/Resurrection ONLY
viewpoint. (I believe in two rapture/resurrection
events:

1. at the beginning of the Tribulation Period,
2. at the end of the Tribiulation Day.

Earlier (several years ago) I did a
poll on how many ex-pre-tribulation rapturists
there are.

I had a friend who was, like me, a pretribulation
rapturist. When the US lead a coalition to take
back Kuwait from Iraq - he said: "Now I'm
a midtribber!"

There is one source of the Pretribualtion Rapture:
Pre-Millinnial Second Coming, Futurist.

There are two sources of the post-tribulation
rapture onlyist:

1. a-mill, peterist
2. pre-millinnial Second Coming, Futurist

Obviously one of them is wrong I think both.

 

Hello Ed,
>There are two sources of the post-tribulation
>rapture onlyist:

>1. a-mill, peterist
>2. pre-millinnial Second Coming, Futurist

I agree. Being a preterist, I understand the "tribulation" to refer to the judgment and destruction of the Mosaic economy at the end of the Old Covenant which occured in the days of the 1st Coming of Christ when Jesus began to reign . . . (Revelation 6:1-17:6)

I understand the resurrection/rapture to refer to the bodily redemption that will occur on the day of resurrection and judgment of all men at the end of this world when Christ returns a 2nd time to judge and reward both the righteous and the wicked. (Revelation 20:7-15)

I believe that would make the rapture post -tribulational by about two thousand years now and counting . . . :saint:

In Christ,
Deborah

 

:applause:

 

//Being a preterist, I understand the "tribulation" to refer to the judgment and destruction of the Mosaic economy at the end of the Old Covenant which occured in the days of the 1st Coming of Christ when Jesus began to reign . . . (Revelation 6:1-17:6)//

1. Most of Revelation 6:1-17:6 (and Revelation 4&5 also,
occur in heaven during the Great Tribulation) occurs
during the Tribulation Periods (Tribulation of bad guys,
not Tribulation of Good guys). The Tribulation Period
might also be called the WRATH OF GOD Time -
for God will spread His wrath on unregenerate man
NOT ON JEWS OR CHRISTIANS.

As for the Tribulation Period to have happened
during the period 33-70AD, that directly contradicts
what Jesus said in the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD):

Mat 24:21-22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not from the beginning of the worlde
to this time, nor shalbe.
22 And except those dayes should
be shortened, there should no flesh be saued:
but for the elects sake those dayes shalbe shortened.

in 33AD-70AD some 3 Million Jews lived in
the Holy Land - I hear 1 Million were slain,
1 Million enslaved, and 1 Million reduced to
poverty.

IN 1940-1945 SIX MILLION European
Jews died in Hitler's death camps. That is
worse than 33AD-70AD (Many people thought
that Hitler was the AntiChrist. My father
died as a direct complication of wounds received
in (Newspaper said Belgim) Germany liberating
Germany & the rest of Europe from the
Hitler (he was indeed a TYPE of Antichrist).

I believe 'for the elects sake' to mean the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection people in
Heaven appealing for mercy on those loved
ones remaining on earth.

Attila the Hun killed more Jews than General Titus.
The Black plague ravaged Euro-Aisia
for over 50 years killing over half the people
in come comunities -- worse than Titus.
The Mongol Horde killed more Jews than
General Titus.

Sorry, while the killing/pillage of the Jews
by General Titus might be a TYPE of
the COMING Tribulation Period (of the
bad guys) -- Titus is NOT the antichrist
and the tribulation of his day on the JEWS
will be nothing like the coming Tribulation
that God is .

 

If the rapture2 would be tomorrow;
the Jews would be able to restore the
daily sacrifice within a week.
It isn't necessary to build the temple, which
houses the holy of holies and the holy place
to have the daily sin offering for Yisrael.

Messiah, when He comes is
supposted by 21st century (2001-2100) Rabbi
Teachers to do three things:

1. bring peace to Yisrael
2. restore the daily sacrifice
3. plan & rebuild the temple

Bringing peace to Yisrael will allow the
Jews access to the now dominated by Muslims
top of the Temple mount. Then the daily sacrifice
can be restored and the temple can be rebuilt
(it well may take 3½-years to complete).

Of course, we who understand about the stories
of the Antichrist see how the reverse is true to
the non-Messanic Jews:
whoever does these will be seen to be
by the non-messanic Jews as the Messiah
but will really be the Antichrist (instead of Christ).

In any case, the temple will be rebuilt and
sacrifices made on it's alters. Even though
the perfect sacrifice was made in 33AD when
Jesus, The Lamb of God, was slain.

 

Hard fact!

Originally Posted by SeekingHisTruth
Pre-trib ratpure and try telling believers in China that there's no persecution and tribulation like what the disciples went through. Just because we don't see "physical" persecution and tribulation here in the US doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere.

We've got to quit seeing the "church" through our tainted US glasses.

As far as the timing goes it can't be more than a couple of years away based on the timetable given in Scripture unless our calendars are REALLY messed up. We know they are a little messed up .


Agreed! Sources I read estimate 250 million Christians persecuted in 2007.
__________________
Thanks, LadyEagle for reminding us of our 250 million Christian brothers and sisters who are suffering in 2007!

May we remember them in our prayers and to give to those like VOM who are ministering with these special saints and their families! May we pray that God will soften the hearts of their tormentors and that they will accept the Lord as their Savior.

 

Hello Ed,
>Messiah, when He comes is
>supposted by 21st century (2001-2100) Rabbi
>Teachers to do . . .

1st through 21st century non-Christian Rabbi teachers do not understand what the Scriptures speak of Messiah Jesus. If they did, they would own him. For that reason, it might be a wiser course for the Christian to look at Rabbinic Judaism's "messianic" doctrine as a case of "what not to believe."

In Christ,
Deborah