The Rapture and My Baptist Family

[Ed Edwards]

I find nothing wrong with using information found
elsewhere to help me understand the Bible.
The 21st century Rabbi Trainers have NO interest
in helping Christians understand their doctrines.

But what Rabbi Trainers have on their mind is
very interesting. Some people who balk at my
Pretribulation Rapture2 Doctrine say "it can't happen
that way, Jesus is the complete (both finished
and perfect) sacrifice for all mankind."
Yep, that is what Jesus is. But good Jewish
Rabbis don't believe a word of it. They think
that when their Messiah comes, he will restore
the daily sacrifice. I just note that if the
Rabbis ever get a chance to do so, they will start
sacrificing the daily national sin offering once
again. But it is going to take superman to let
the Muslims share temple mount with some Rabbis.
Rabbi errors lend right into accepting what they
shouldn't accept - they will welcome the Antichrist
and he will build a new temple.

BTW, I happend to have read a few books by
Herman Khan especially THINKING ABOUT THE
UNTHINKABLE (nuclear strategies of mutual
destruction - especially the one that held Russia
at bay for 50 years and caused the downfall of the
Evil Empire: MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction).
So I know that Deuteronomy 28:14-68 is a perfect
description of the Nuclear Winter following a
Nuclear War. It was bad for the Jews in 68-70AD,
it is bad for Gentiles today.

Even a minor nuclear exchange say between Pakaistan
and India can cause a nuclear winter that will kill
1/3 of folk on earth - the Tribulation period will be worse than
that.

Are you Rapture2 Ready?
It can come any time.
(not 3½-7 years from now like the post-trib only resurrection2
folk say).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yat = yet another topic:

 

[mcdirector]

Yat = yet another topic:

I noticed your new siggy Ed. I killed so many threads on a teacher board I was on that I made this:

 

[Palatka51]

who are being persecuted today for their faith of the Lord Jesus Christ. They are willing to suffer for Him because they love Him. One of these days they will be able to lay before their King the martrys crown!

The Lord has not given us the exact day that He is coming but, we do know He promised to come again. The pre-trib teaching was never in the writings of the early church fathers, the Bible, authors before 1830! What a track record! And on this thread we read of those who no longer believe the pre-trib view. It would be fun to find out what verse really stood out that showed you that you could not adhere to the pre-trib doctrine? Would you like to share as did the starter of this thread did namely, righteousdude2!

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Ed, the blue highlites are just for you. As I know that you will be trying to refute what is plainly spoken here.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Palatka51: //Ed, the blue highlites are just for you.
As I know that you will be trying to refute
what is plainly spoken here.//

I think if you read the rules of Baptist Board
that you will find you shouldn't have said that.
I believe the Bible from cover to
cover. I even believe the cover: HOLY BIBLE!

God told me to check each quote that claims
to be from one of His Bibles. It sure would
help if you also would tell (in addition to the
book, Chapter, & Verse) which Bible from which
you get your quotes. Thank you for helping me
do God's work. It looks like you might have
used one of the KJVs, but it takes time
to search for that. I use the KJVs
in 2 Thess 2:1-15 cause verse 3 says

except there come a falling away first

I note that the KJVs don't tell from
whense the falling away happens.
Do you claim that your idea of what is fallen
away from is better or plainer than what I say
is fallen away from? I'm a Baptist and claim
my full Baptist right to figure out for myself
what is fallen away from. I say it is
EARTH that is fallen away from for this is
one of the most hopeful of all scriputres.
This falling away from Earth has
nothing to do with Christians suffering
in Dufar or Iraq from Muslim criminals.
The falling away from Earth has everything
to do with God's plan for the ages - God's
plans that are revealed in the 'mysteries' of
the New Testament - His plans to save a whole
generation of Jews AFTER we gentiles leave
to go to heaven.

Did you read yet where I tell about the town
of Non, Oklahoma in Hughes county?
I started going to 8th grade in Sept 1957
in Holdenville, Hughes County, Oklahoma.
Non is a small community. It really only has
two organizations (used to advertize
for free /being not for profit/ on the Radio
station): the Missionary Baptist Church
and the Homemakers Club.

So the adds were for:

The Non Homemakers Club
The Non Missionary Baptist Church

We were confused a lot until I graduated
in 1961 and went to college in another county.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Palatka51,
An interesting historical note: In 1st Century papyri documents as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls, the word "apostasia" means "revolt" and was used for political rebels.
In which case, Paul was telling the Thessalonians that the day of Christ would be preceded by the revolt against Rome in which those who refused the Gospel of salvation were indeed sent strong delusion so that they believed the false messianic claims of the Zealots and were destroyed . . . literally (for those literalists out there).

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Ed Edwards]

Eight of the English Bible Translations that preceed the
KJVs use a form of 'departing' in 2 Thess 2:3
where the KJVs use 'falling away'.

I was studying some dictionaries (I don't have them
with me) that give dates that a word or meaning of
a word came into the English language.
The English word 'apostasy' used in MODERN VERSIONS
where 'departing' is shown in the Geneva Bible, 1599
edition of 2 Thess 2:3:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there
come a departing first, and that that man
of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Yes, that English word 'apostasy' came from the
Greek term translated by 'departing' by the
Geneva Bible translators WHO HAD THE ENGLISH
WORD 'APOSTASY' available to them -- they chose
not to use 'apostasy' -- Why?

Yes, that English word 'apostasy' came from the
Greek term translated by 'falling away' by the
King James Version (KJV) translators WHO HAD THE ENGLISH
WORD 'APOSTASY' available to them -- they chose
not to use 'apostasy' -- Why?

But that is just one of my points why I think
that 'departure (Geneva) and 'falling away' (KJVs).

 

[Ed Edwards]

I noticed your new siggy Ed. I killed so many threads on a teacher board I was on that I made this:

Thank you for your encouragement.

I needed something like that.

 

[Japheth]

I am Post Tribulational Covenantal PreMillennial....

The Reason . . .

Matthew 24

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Notice that is says Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the son of man will come on the clouds of heaven and will gather his ELECT from the four winds.

Who is his elect? The Church which are "The called out ones". So the church is still there in the tribulation period.

What about the Blessed Hope? The Blessed Hope is not the rapture, It is the Second Coming of Christ to gather his elect and come down to reign for 1000 years and then continued throughout eternity.. The Blessed Hope is Christ and our salvation through Christ for which we are saved from eternal destruction.

What about the Tribulation? God does not NEED to remove us to protect us from his wrath? NO, God does not need to remove us... Did he remove Noah when he destroyed the world by Flood? Did he remove Israel when the plagues came to Egypt? Of Course Not.. God protected them ALL here on Earth from His wrath and the same will be true in the tribulation period... God will mark us out and protect us from HIS wrath.. That does not mean we will be protect from the AntiChrist who will martyr Christians in the tribulation period... We are never promised to be protect from evil nor from the AntiChrist but we are saved from God's Wrath in the tribulation by divine protection. Not by removal..

So where does it say we are removed? It does not.. We will be here for that All powerful day when Christ returns in the clouds of glory and power to gather His Elect, the Church from the four winds and we will ascend to Christ in the clouds and Immediately descend with Christ to reign with Him for a thousand years as the Marriage feast of the lamb starts, since the wedding just took place at the second coming...

 

[jilphn1022]

Japheth :We want to welcome you to the

BB family!

Thanks for sharing with us what you believe and basing it on God's Word.

The Bible should be the final answer! The Word has been proven true and faithful!

We will never go wrong if we focus our thoughts and views of God's Word.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Sibling Jilphn1022 -- you are so right on! :thumbs:

I'm a pretribulation rapturist, of the futurist,
dispensational pre-millinnial persuasion.
And it is obvious from the same Matthew 24 quoted before
this post.

//Notice that is says Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
the son of man will come on the clouds
of heaven and will gather his ELECT
from the four winds.//

Sorry, two major mistakes.
The 'immediately after the tribulation of those days'
does not relate to Matthew 24:31-44.
God has two elect groups.
The gathering of the elect Christians is pre-tribulation;
the gathering of the elect Yisrael is post-tribulation.
Both gatherings are on on the Day of the Lord,
when Jesus comes a second time:
phase 1 - gather the elect Christians (dead & alive)
phase 2 - gather the elect Yisraeli (dead & alive).

here is a scripture showing that Israel is the
elect of God:

Isa 45:4 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For Iaakob my seruants sake,
and Israel mine elect, I will euen
call thee by thy name and name thee,
though thou hast not knowen me.

I'll show in another post
that a proper understanding of the
words of Jesus show the gathering of the Christian
elect is in front of the Tribulation Period.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//What about the Tribulation? God does not NEED
to remove us to protect us from his wrath?
NO, God does not need to remove us...//

Amen, God does not need to remove us to protect
us from His wrath. However, His plan doesn't seem
to be to do that to Christians. He will remove many
saved Jews (Israeli) to the wilderness to protect
them during the Tribulation period.

// Did he remove Noah when he destroyed the world by Flood?//

Yes, and his family. They floated away from
the serface of the earth.

In Matthew 24 and other samples in Mark and Luke,
(collectively called 'The Mount Olivet Discourse /MOD/ )
Jesus gives two examples of what the gathering
will be like:
1. the days of Noah (removed)
2. and the days of Lot (removed)
NOT
3. the days of the the three Hebrew Children (Jesus
protecting in the furnace)
4. or the days of Daniel (protected
in the Lion's Den). Why did Jesus talk
about examples where He removed the faithful/elect
from the earth to explain the Wrath
of the Tribulation period? Why did Jesus not
talk about examples where He protected His
faithful/elect from His Wrath in place?

(I always wanted to start a gospel band called:
"Daniel & the Lion's Din"

 

[Ed Edwards]

Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is Ed's pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.
(Matthew 25 is some parables of Jesus
speaking of the end of the Last Days.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues
NOT that the end is near..

 

[Japheth]

There is only one Olive Tree which is Christ and one Elect or "Called out ones", or in Greek the "Ekklesia" of God.

The Elect is made up of Jews and Gentiles Alike and there is not two elect groups but one group, The Ekklesia.

Israel was called the Ekklesia in the wilderness and in the Psalms and the Church is ONE with Israel for we are all children of Abraham BY Faith.

The full number of the elect from all ages and nations comprise the one invisible church. In this respect, absolutely no distinction exists between the believing Jews of the Old Testament era and the Christian Jews and Gentiles of the New Testament era. All the elect have equal status and utter unity in the invisible church.

When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return ... and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both, and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first born in God's family.

This is not replacement theology but UNITY Theology for we were grafted into that Olive Tree which was Christ and the Jews were broken off but many will return to Christ near the end and so will be regrafted back in.

The Church is Spiritual Israel which is one with Physical Israel which makes up the whole Israel of God.

But one thing to notice about the context of Matthew 24.. Christ is SPEAKING to the CHURCH.... WHY? He was speaking with the Apostles, who were the foundations of the new covenant administration of the church. They asked him, when will you return... And he answered After the great tribulation of those days.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//The Elect is made up of Jews and Gentiles Alike and there is not two elect groups but one group, The Ekklesia.//

This is true sometimes.
With the Christians (mostly gentiles) gone to
heaven (transported by Jesus) and the
Jews who are about to be saved on earth --
yes, I will talk about two groups..
Both are 'elect' both are 'church' both
are one in this age; both are one in the next age;
both are two in the Tribulation Period.

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

for those who need help counting:
1. Jews - elect
2. Church of God - elect
3. Gentiles - non-elect