The "Rapture". When????

[carlaimpinge]

Deafpostrib,

This finishes up the response to your post.

Yes, you certainly PRIVATELY INTERPRETED the verses of Rev.13 concerning the saints AS BEING the members of the body of Christ.

Your being naive, when you ask, Aren't we saints? You then QUOTE Paul, not John.

Son, there are OT saints. (See the OT scriptures) When YOU SEE the word, saints, it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY "apply" DOCTRINALLY to members of the body of Christ.

No, the pretrib position IS biblical concering saints. There are DIFFERENT KINDS of saints within the Bible. Saints without the law (like Abel, Noah, Abraham), UNDER THE LAW (like Moses, Aaron), under grace (like YOU), within the DAY OP WRATH during the great tribulation (Like those found in Rev.13), and those found in the millenium. (Rev.20)

AGAIN, you privately interpret a word for another.

Quote:

I am sure that many pretribs are aware that 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 mean Christians, no doubt. But, yet, they say, they are not belong to Christ's body. Aren't the saints (Rev. 13:7) the Bride of Christ's? - Rev. 21:9?

Unquote.

You SUBSTITUTE Christians for SAINTS. There were not any OT Christians. (That's the trouble YOU get into substituting words, which DON'T REFER to what you are trying to teach.

Christians REFER to those who are PAULINE BASED in theology. (Acts 11)

You're EVADING what you said with prooftexts earlier. You distorted and SUBSTITUTED the tribulation in several texts for THE FUTURE EVENT of the trib-great trib.

Quote:

I believe Matt 24:21 speaks of future event, that there shall be great tribulation, it will be much more worst than all tribulations in the Church history. Many Christians will be killed by the beast during great tribulation.

Unquote.

You ASSUME Christians will be killed by the BEAST without a "single" prooftext.

Quote:

Saints same mean as Christians.

Unquote.

Again, NOT by any prooftext GIVEN by John, who's SAINTS you're talking about.

It appears that you have eyetrouble. 1 Thess.4-5 along with 2 Thess.1-2 STATE that our gathering OCCURS before the day of the Lord, which is INCLUSIVE of the the great tribulation. The WRATH TO COME (1 Thess.1) IS the great tribulation, son. (See Matt.3,24) That's what they're FLEEING from. WE ESCAPE that.

Those are your CLEAR verses. Maybe you can't SEE them, as the Pharisees and Jews couldn't SEE the ones they read spoken by the Lord and Paul. (Matt. 13, Acts 28)

Quote:

There is no difference between Matt. 24:31 & 1 Thess. 4:16-17, both are same passage talking about Rapture.

Unquote.

Rubbish, son. They are as different as NIGHT and DAY.

Quote:

You saying 'do not be confuse between 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord'.

Actually, both are same defintion & event.

Unquote.

Again, you have problem reading comprehension. CHRIST IS NOT LORD. We escape the day of the Lord, but are GATHERED on the day of Christ. COMPARE the two passages. (Paul wrote BOTH, and didn't CONFUSE the days as the same.) You shouldn't either.


Quote:

Day of the Lord shall NOT come till AFTER cosmic disturbance occred first - Joel 2:31; 3:14-15. Day of the Lord cannot be occur yet TILL after sun, moon, and stars darkened. Same with Matt. 24:29-30.

Unquote.

Wrong. That's the GREAT and TERRIBLE day of the Lord. The day of the Lord BEGINS when the SUN GOES DOWN at noon at the INVASION OF JERUSALEM (Amos 8, Jer.6, 15, Zech.14) LONG before the END of the tribulation, which is the sixth seal.

Quote:

Day of the Lord is not seven year of tribulation period. It is Christ's coming to judge the world.

Unquote.

The day of the Lord INCLUDES the time of Jacob's trouble (which starts at the midst of the week, Jer.30, Zeph.1), the time of the Gentiles (Ez.30), when the Lord RETURNS for the Tribulation saints (Matt.24, Rev.6), and the TIME OF THE PROMISE, when the Messiah of Israel REIGNS on the throne of Israel, promised to David. (Luke 1)

Quote:

None in the Bible saying, the day of the Lord stretches into 7 years or 1007 years. Zeph. 1:14-15 tells us, the day of the Lord is A day for to judge the world shall be at Lord's coming.

Unquote.

The day of the Lord is a period of time LONGER than a 24 hour day. It INCLUDES summer and winter just in ONE PASSAGE. (Zech. 14:8)

Good grief, son. You're now going to DO AWAY with the time of Jacob's trouble from Paul's statement in 1 Thess.5?

Your exposition leaves a lot to be desired.

The CONTEXT of 1 Thess.4-5 is the gathering, and its ASSOCIATION in TIMING to the day of the Lord occurring. (Amos 8) It deals with the TIME when the woman is in travail. (That's NOT at the beginning of Daniel's WEEK , but the MIDST, when Michael stands. Dan.11,12, Matt.24)

The peace and safety concerns the FALSE PROPHETS OF ISRAEL. (Did you read the OT?) Micah 5, Jer.4,6,8,12,30, Ez.13, Micah 3)

The time of Jacob's trouble STARTS at the midst of the week.

Quote:

Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago. Jer. 29:4 - Jeremiah warned to Israel, that God said, He will send Israel away to Babylon. Later, it fulfilled that Babylon did invaded Jerusalem, and took Hebrews away into captivity for 70 years.

Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled that Israel was in great trouble caused by Babylon invaded them in year around 560 B.C.(I am not sure what exactly year was). Then, "but he shall be SAVED out of it." fulfilled 70 years later after their captivity, Israel returned to Jerualem during Ezra's time. Notice Jer. 30:8-10 speak of set Israle freed from their capitvity, and return back to their home again.

Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30 already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago. Jer. 30:7 does not discuss about the future supposed seven years of Tribulation. Not what Jeremiah, the prophet was actually talking about. We have to be carefully, what we reading the context of Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30.

Unquote.

Wrong son. The PROPHECY concerns BOTH HOUSES, not just Judah. LOOK AT THE BOOK! They BOTH haven't come back yet! (See Ez.37)

Other than that, what happened to DAVID, who was going to be RAISED UP? You AGAIN have "privately interpreted" the TEXT of the HOLY BIBLE to match your beliefs.

Maybe you should try preterism.

In Christ Jesus,

Carl
Psalm 149:6

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good Afternoon Carl!

I already read websites and book on Preterism. There are so many things that I do not agree with them. Preterism says, ALL of the prophecies in Old Testament and New Testament already fulfilled by Christ's coming in year 70 A.D. They often emphasis on Matthew chapter 24 relates with year 70 A.D. Preterism have serious problems and errors by interpreting verses into spiritually.

Grasshopper is a member of Baptistboard, he is a full-preterist. I do not agree with his beliefs and interpreting on verses.

But, in another many areas I do agree on either partial & full preterism about the prophecies of the O.T. are already fulfilled. For example, depend on what the grammar of verses on prophecy is talking about. Which one is speak of first advent or second advent. Daniel 9:24-27 is a perfect example, that there is split between historists & futurists on their interpreting of Dan. 9:24-27. Futurists believe Dan. 9:27 is a future event will be 7 year of Tribulation period- "Week". Historists understand of Dan. 9:27 speaks of Jesus Christ who already make covenant with many(not just for Jews or Israel only, also include Gentiles) through Calvary.

Not every historists are either partial or full preterists. I do agree with historists about the prophecies already fulfilled relate with first advent - Calvary. I know many of historists DO BELIEVE Christ's coming is a future event same as I do.

Nearly every Amills agree on historism. But, all amills DO BELIEVE Christ's coming is a future event same as I do.

Often, disp/futurists accsue on amills, that saying amill interpreting verses into spiritually.

Well, futurists interpreting verses into literally too much.

Amills always balance by interpreting verses into spiritualize & literally. I do believe in literal things, depend on what the verses are talking about.

You think amill seems intepreting verses into spiritualize more than literally. Probably you are correct. Unless depend on what the grammar of verses are talking about.

In my early Christian life, I was myself premill before. I hear amill doctrine very little. I heard amill by listen from pretrib pastors, teachers, and books, include Dr. Ruckman. They saying, amills are anti-Semitism. I thought amill does not emphasis on Jews & Israel in the future. Also, pretrib/premills seem not explain deep enough on what amill really believe. I hear amill doctrine very little bit.

Till 4 years ago, I started to study on millennium doctrine in the Bible. The more I learned from the Bible, there are so many conflicts with premill doctrine from the Bible. Matt 13:28-30; 39-42; Matt 25:31-46; John 6:39,40,44,54 are the mostly caused me into trouble with premill doctrine. During that time, I didn't read any amill site on the intenret, neither books on amill. I learned from the Bible. A year later in 2001, I started to reading on amill and learning on it. I realized amill is not anti-Semitism. Amill say nothing against Jews or Israel either. Amill understands the purpose of Calvary & covenant on Jews and Gentiles. Both are share together fair .

Premills saying on amill, that they deny future literal 1,000 years reign on earth after the second coming according to Revelation chapter 20.

Later, I found out that, the accuse on amill is much misunderstanding. Amills understand what Revelation 20 differently as what premills understand. Amill saying this is speaking of realized kingdom is currently present because of Calvary, it is happening between first advent and second advent. Honest, I rather called this, - 'Eternality kingdom' than "amillennial". God's kingdom have no end, it lasts for forever and ever because of Calvary.

I will discuss on millennium issue another time or make new topic on that later.

You mentioned of 1 Thess 5:3 - 'woman in travail'. I am sure what in your mind, it speaks of great tribulation for Israel.

Notice Paul wrote of verse 3 says, "as travail upon a woman with child". Please do not accuse on me that I deny on verse 3 is literally.

I understand what Paul was talking about. 'Travail upon a woman with child' does not mean as it takes literally. It gives us the picture of an example show us, how in the real world of women or mothers having real pain, when they delivery baby to be born same time. Also, it means a mother is in a suffer while care child. It represents unsaved in the world shall experince great pain and suffering, no one shall escape from it. What they shall be suffering and cannot escape from of it? It speaks of their suffering of punishment, and send them into everlasting fire. They will be in great torment in the flame, they cannot escape from the everlasting punishment. Also, they shall not escape from being facing judgment of God -great white throne.

1 Thess 5:3 is not what in Paul's mind speaking toward Jews or Israel. Paul talked about unbelievers of the world.

No one shall escape from it (verse 3) is also refer to Luke 21:36 speaks of urge us to WATCH and PRAY, so, we shall escape from all these things. What things that we should escape from? Face the wrath of God, and judgment day, to send into everlasting fire.

You say,

No, the gospel of the grace of God WILL NOT be preached during the tribulation.


It will be the gospel of the kingdom.(Matt 24-vs. 14)

All those WHO DID NOT BELIEVE 'Paul's gospel' will receive tribulation, AND A LIE...(2 Thess. 1-2-find in 2:11-12)

Your teaching is a type of Hyper-Dispensationalism same as what Dr. Peter Ruckman is teaching.

You believe the gospel of the four gospels is DIFFERENT from as the gospel of Paul. I disagree with you. There is no difference between gospel of the four gospels & Paul preached the gospel, both are same.

This present gospel remain always same since Pentacost Day and will continue till through great tribulaiton toward Christ's coming.

Matt 24:14 tells us, the gospel shall reach to all nations of the world, then the end come. Right now, the gospel seems reaching nearly all nations, show us that the end is coming soon.

Matt 28:19-20 tells us, Christ gave the great commission to the disciples, go and preach the gospel to all nations, and He told them, behold, He always be with them TILL THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD. Obivously, the gospel is continuing spread over the world, will be last TILL the end of the age come. When the gospel will be finally ovber? On the last day of the age - John 6:39,40,44, & 54.

How about 144,000 Witnesses of Revelation 7? Pretribs saying they are 144,000 Jewish evangelists will spread the gospel over the world, that no Christians will doing it, there is a different kind of gospel. But, the context of Revelaton chapter 7 does not saying 144,000 Jews will evangel the gospel to the world. The context of chapter 7 speak of they shall be SEALED, notice last part of verse 9-17 speaks of countless or multitude of the nations are also sealed, the context of chapter 7 is the picture of rapture. 144,000 is a symbolic number, and they represent Church, that the numbers mean completed and perfectly, also, Church is Israel.

I let you know amill, include myself is NOT Replacement Theology. Amill does not teaching that Church replaced Israel. We are spiritual Israel - 1 Peter 2:9. Also, the context of Romans chapter 11 describes about the Olive tree more deep and clear. Gentiles are now grafted into the tree to join with believing Jews, and share together on the same, that we are all Israel.

You say,

HE RETURNS to heaven with them for a WEDDING is going on! (John 10,14, Matt 25, Luke 12)

I did read John chapter 10, it say nothing about the wedding. I read John chapter 14, and it say nothing about wedding. But, I am sure what in your mind of John 14. It speaks of verse 1-3, that verses are the popular teaching by pretribulationism doctrine, it shows prove that when Christ shall come again, He shall receive us(rapture), then bring us back to heaven, -Father's house, where the mansions are.

John 14:1-3 does not saying anything about the timing of rapture. It speaks of the promise to us, that we shall dwell in the Father's houss, where Christ dwells forever and ever. I have no problem with John 14:1-3, it talking about the promise to us, that we shall dwell in New Jerusalem where Christ dwells forever and ever that shall be at His coming, because Rev. 21:1-4 telling us, New Jerusalem shall be descend out of heaven and it lands on the new earth, and we shall dwell in New Jerusalem with Jesus forever and ever at His coming. That's what I am looking forward for.

I did read Luke chapter 12. I find verses talk about 'wedding' in verse 36. I think what in your mind of verse 36 seems prove that 'wedding' shall be occuring up in the heaven during either 3 1/2 years or 7 years of tribulation period, THEN when after his wedding, he shall return to earth is speak of second coming. The reason why pretrib teaching on this because of Rev. 19:7-9 saying so.

Let me discuss on Luke 12:36-40. Remeber, the context verse 36-40 speaking of a parable. Christ does not take it into literally. But He gaves us the picture to apply us as servants, that we always be prepare and watch.

Christ said, "and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for THIER lord..." Christ explained it to his disciples, that we are like as servants who are wait for their master. "when he will return from the wedding" - does not take it into literally. Also, it does not discuss about second coming either. Christ's point is, he said, their master(boss) return from wedding(could be another events like as meetings, or emergency, or funereal family, etc.) for to check out on his workers, to see how they are doing. Master comes and knock the door, the workers come to the door and open immediately. It shows us, that the workers are all ready. For example, the students in the classroom, while their teacher gone, the students are fool around and chatting each other, not doing work or study. When the teacher returns, the students are not expecting that their teacher comes so early, while the teacher knocking the door for to enter the classroom. While teacher knocks the door, the students are still chatting each other, maybe they didn't hear the door is knocking same time. While as the teacher continues knocking the door for least in 30 seconds, no one open it, so.... teacher go ahead open the door and SHOCKED the students. Same with Christ's coming shall be like as "thief in the night".

Notice Luke 12:38 - 'second watch' & 'third watch'. Do it sound like as split comings? No. It does not discuss about split comings. For example, the boss tells to his workers, "I have few errands to do, I will go gone, and I will be return back, also go forward also. I want you to doing work while I am gone." In the picture tells us, workers' boss is testing on them, to make sure, to see IF they are still working, not playing around.

Myself as a student in the school many years ago. When the teacher gone. My classmate include myself were fool around and playing each other for about 30 minutes while teacher gone. When when suddenly teacher returned, she shocked us, and got us in trouble.

Luke 12:39-40 tell us, a worker should be aware when worker's boss shall come like as thief, worker must be watch be ready all time.

Luke 12:36-40 apply to us, that our spiritual life, that we must always be watch and be prepared for Christ's coming, because His coming shall be like as thief in the night. Rev. 3:3 warns us, what IF we do not watch and ready, He shall come upon as thief!

I know Matthew chapter 25 very well. Remember, verse 1 to 12 speak of a parable. Matt. 25:1-12 do not take into literally. The ten virgins apply to us as individuals, that our spiritual must always be prepared and be ready for Christ's coming. Five foolish virgins without oil, show that they are not ready and not live for God. Five wise virgins with oil, show that they are wise and always be ready all the time, and live right for God daily, always be ready for Christ's coming all the times.

Your logical of John 10,14, Matt 25, Luke 12 have do nothing with the timing of rapture or split comings. These are talking about our prepared and watch for Christ's coming.

I better stop this post. Because this post might be into a very long. I better cut this post into parts to be continued for to reply back to your response.

To be continued...

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "Nearly every Amills agree on historism. But, all amills DO BELIEVE Christ's coming is a future event same as I do.:

The first groups of amills i heard of
were a-secondadventists also. The Coming
of Jesus is when you get saved, or else
when you get dead and Jesus comes to take
you to heaven. The problem with spirtualizing
is that someone somewhere will spirtualize
everything under the sun.

God's blessings - may they flow youward!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Deafpostrib,

I'm a man of few words, who reads fairly well, sifting the statements of others as to their point.

After ALL of your intro, you DENIED the 1000 years of Rev.20 are LITERAL, which occur IN THE FUTURE, "after" Christ's return at Armageddon.

Quote:

Premills saying on amill, that they deny future literal 1,000 years reign on earth after the second coming according to Revelation chapter 20.

Later, I found out that, the accuse on amill is much misunderstanding. Amills understand what Revelation 20 differently as what premills understand. Amill saying this is speaking of realized kingdom is currently present because of Calvary, it is happening between first advent and second advent. Honest, I rather called this, - 'Eternality kingdom' than "amillennial". God's kingdom have no end, it lasts for forever and ever because of Calvary.

Unquote.

You homilie about childbirth and knowing what is in Paul's mind lacks biblical confirmation.

Paul is BACKING UP his teaching from the OT Scritpures. (Rom.16) He USES the "characterization" of JEREMIAH THE PROPHET. (Jer.30)

You AGAIN privately interpreted 1 Thess.5, as being a reference to HELLFIRE. Paul is NOT giving a diatribe TO or ABOUT "pregnant mothers", NOR is he speaking of damnation in hell, or the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, but THE WRATH ASSOCIATED with the day of the Lord, which WE escape.

You have "certainly" fantasied that "eisogesis" without prooftext for corroboration. Mine is IN the context ITSELF.


Quote:

I understand what Paul was talking about. 'Travail upon a woman with child' does not mean as it takes literally. It gives us the picture of an example show us, how in the real world of women or mothers having real pain, when they delivery baby to be born same time. Also, it means a mother is in a suffer while care child. It represents unsaved in the world shall experince great pain and suffering, no one shall escape from it. What they shall be suffering and cannot escape from of it? It speaks of their suffering of punishment, and send them into everlasting fire. They will be in great torment in the flame, they cannot escape from the everlasting punishment. Also, they shall not escape from being facing judgment of God -great white throne.

Unquote.

Watch YOUR eisgesis!

Quote:

1 Thess 5:3 is not what in Paul's mind speaking toward Jews or Israel. Paul talked about unbelievers of the world.

No one shall escape from it (verse 3) is also refer to Luke 21:36 speaks of urge us to WATCH and PRAY, so, we shall escape from all these things. What things that we should escape from? Face the wrath of God, and judgment day, to send into everlasting fire.

Unquote.

The ESCAPE is FROM the wrath to come (Matt.3, 24, Luke 3, 21) which is the GREAT TRIBULATION in BOTH of those contexts. Simply amazing. Paul STATES we are delivered from the WRATH TO COME! (1 Thess.1)

Quote:

Your teaching is a type of Hyper-Dispensationalism same as what Dr. Peter Ruckman is teaching.

You believe the gospel of the four gospels is DIFFERENT from as the gospel of Paul. I disagree with you. There is no difference between gospel of the four gospels & Paul preached the gospel, both are same.

Unquote.

No, MY TEACHING is Pauline dispensationalism, according to Paul himself, FROM HIS EPISTLES. (Eph.1,3, Col.1, 1 Cor.9) If Ruckman teaches what I do, then he teaches CORRECTLY.

Yes, I most certainly believe the gospel of the kingdom is NOT the gospel of the grace of God. The 12 preached it in Matt.10, following John and the Lord's pattern. It did NOT contain the elements of Paul's MESSAGE, according to LUKE. (Luke 18, 1 Cor.15) Now if you can't read that and understand that FACT, you certainly have a problem.

The gospel of the kingdom IS NOT being preached as being AT HAND "today". You certainly don't preach that.

Quote:

This present gospel remain always same since Pentacost Day and will continue till through great tribulaiton toward Christ's coming.

Unquote.

Wrong again.

Your belief is FANTASY, contradicted by the TRUTH of the Holy Spirit, Paul and Matthew, and the Holy Scriptures.

The gospel of the kingdom IS NOT the gospel of the grace of God. (Matt.3,4,10, Acts 20) THE 12 DIDN'T KNOW IT in Luke 18! They didn't KNOW HE WOULD DIE AND RISE FROM THE DEAD, so they didn't preach it son. (John 20) They preached something else WHICH DIDN"T INCLUDE his death, burial, and resurrection. The kingdom CEASED to be "at hand". (Acts 1) They WERE TAUGHT the gospel of God in Luke 24 and Mark 16!

The 12 apostles GAVE UP their commission to go to the Gentiles AFTER Paul "communicated" his gospel UNTO THEM, and they "perceived" the GRACE that was given unto HIM! (Gal.2, Eph.3, Rom.15)

You certainly need to look at the Book.

Quote:

How about 144,000 Witnesses of Revelation 7? Pretribs saying they are 144,000 Jewish evangelists will spread the gospel over the world, that no Christians will doing it, there is a different kind of gospel. But, the context of Revelaton chapter 7 does not saying 144,000 Jews will evangel the gospel to the world. The context of chapter 7 speak of they shall be SEALED, notice last part of verse 9-17 speaks of countless or multitude of the nations are also sealed, the context of chapter 7 is the picture of rapture. 144,000 is a symbolic number, and they represent Church, that the numbers mean completed and perfectly, also, Church is Israel.

I let you know amill, include myself is NOT Replacement Theology. Amill does not teaching that Church replaced Israel. We are spiritual Israel - 1 Peter 2:9. Also, the context of Romans chapter 11 describes about the Olive tree more deep and clear. Gentiles are now grafted into the tree to join with believing Jews, and share together on the same, that we are all Israel.

Unquote.

Fantasy and supposition without confirmation and corroboration. Standard "false" spiritualization of passages. If the 144,000 are the SYMBOL of the Body of Christ, then the MOUNTAIN ON FIRE of Rev.8 is "symbolical" of the RETURN of Elvis Presley! (singing Hunka, Hunka, Burning Love?)

Your "private interpretation" MAKES that much sense.

Paul NEVER mistakes the Body of Christ for ISRAEL. (See Rom.9-11) He always SEPARATES Israel (Not saved at the time, Rom.10), the Gentiles (Who NOW have the salvation of God, Acts 28), and the Body of Christ (remnant of Jews, according to the election of grace and GENTILES), Rom.11.

Son, you have a problem with PROGRESSIVE REVELATION given IN TIME and HISTORY. The Biblical teaching is being given, NOT modern day, preweek rapturism.

You're NOT FOLLOWING. I believe and teach that there are THREE MORE APPEARANCES of Christ to come.

One at the midst of the week. (2 Thess.2)
Next, after the great tribulation. (Matt.24, Rev.6)
Last, after Daniel's week at Armageddon. (Rev.19)

John 10 states the COMING of Christ for his sheep and he LEADS THEM OUT. (He spoke unto them in PROVERBS, as he did in chapter 16, speaking about his COMING.)

John 14 SHOWS where he leads them. It's to the MANSIONS in the Father's house. The Father's house IS NOT New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem which HE LIVES IN has been there a LONG TIME! (Psalm 48, Isaiah 14)

Luke 12 SHOWS where he CAME FROM, and what was going on there WHEN he left. It was a WEDDING.

Matt.25 speaks of their ATTENDANCE at the marriage. They are NOT THE BRIDE, for the bride is a VIRGIN, not virgins.

The coming in those chapters is a POST TRIB COMING. That's all that was taught them.

PAUL TAUGHT THE PRETRIB RAPTURE, not the 12. (1 Thess.4-5, 2 Thess.2)

You need to REREAD the chapters again. Your homilies and "spiritual applications" were nice, but you didn't TEACH THE DOCTRINE from them. (See 2 Tim.3:16)

Quote;

I did read John chapter 10, it say nothing about the wedding. I read John chapter 14, and it say nothing about wedding. But, I am sure what in your mind of John 14. It speaks of verse 1-3, that verses are the popular teaching by pretribulationism doctrine, it shows prove that when Christ shall come again, He shall receive us(rapture), then bring us back to heaven, -Father's house, where the mansions are.

John 14:1-3 does not saying anything about the timing of rapture. It speaks of the promise to us, that we shall dwell in the Father's houss, where Christ dwells forever and ever. I have no problem with John 14:1-3, it talking about the promise to us, that we shall dwell in New Jerusalem where Christ dwells forever and ever that shall be at His coming, because Rev. 21:1-4 telling us, New Jerusalem shall be descend out of heaven and it lands on the new earth, and we shall dwell in New Jerusalem with Jesus forever and ever at His coming. That's what I am looking forward for.

I did read Luke chapter 12. I find verses talk about 'wedding' in verse 36. I think what in your mind of verse 36 seems prove that 'wedding' shall be occuring up in the heaven during either 3 1/2 years or 7 years of tribulation period, THEN when after his wedding, he shall return to earth is speak of second coming. The reason why pretrib teaching on this because of Rev. 19:7-9 saying so.

Let me discuss on Luke 12:36-40. Remeber, the context verse 36-40 speaking of a parable. Christ does not take it into literally. But He gaves us the picture to apply us as servants, that we always be prepare and watch.

Christ said, "and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for THIER lord..." Christ explained it to his disciples, that we are like as servants who are wait for their master. "when he will return from the wedding" - does not take it into literally. Also, it does not discuss about second coming either. Christ's point is, he said, their master(boss) return from wedding(could be another events like as meetings, or emergency, or funereal family, etc.) for to check out on his workers, to see how they are doing. Master comes and knock the door, the workers come to the door and open immediately. It shows us, that the workers are all ready. For example, the students in the classroom, while their teacher gone, the students are fool around and chatting each other, not doing work or study. When the teacher returns, the students are not expecting that their teacher comes so early, while the teacher knocking the door for to enter the classroom. While teacher knocks the door, the students are still chatting each other, maybe they didn't hear the door is knocking same time. While as the teacher continues knocking the door for least in 30 seconds, no one open it, so.... teacher go ahead open the door and SHOCKED the students. Same with Christ's coming shall be like as "thief in the night".

Notice Luke 12:38 - 'second watch' & 'third watch'. Do it sound like as split comings? No. It does not discuss about split comings. For example, the boss tells to his workers, "I have few errands to do, I will go gone, and I will be return back, also go forward also. I want you to doing work while I am gone." In the picture tells us, workers' boss is testing on them, to make sure, to see IF they are still working, not playing around.

Myself as a student in the school many years ago. When the teacher gone. My classmate include myself were fool around and playing each other for about 30 minutes while teacher gone. When when suddenly teacher returned, she shocked us, and got us in trouble.

Luke 12:39-40 tell us, a worker should be aware when worker's boss shall come like as thief, worker must be watch be ready all time.

Luke 12:36-40 apply to us, that our spiritual life, that we must always be watch and be prepared for Christ's coming, because His coming shall be like as thief in the night. Rev. 3:3 warns us, what IF we do not watch and ready, He shall come upon as thief!

I know Matthew chapter 25 very well. Remember, verse 1 to 12 speak of a parable. Matt. 25:1-12 do not take into literally. The ten virgins apply to us as individuals, that our spiritual must always be prepared and be ready for Christ's coming. Five foolish virgins without oil, show that they are not ready and not live for God. Five wise virgins with oil, show that they are wise and always be ready all the time, and live right for God daily, always be ready for Christ's coming all the times.

Your logical of John 10,14, Matt 25, Luke 12 have do nothing with the timing of rapture or split comings. These are talking about our prepared and watch for Christ's coming.

I better stop this post. Because this post might be into a very long. I better cut this post into parts to be continued for to reply back to your response.

Unquote.

You are certainly NOT DEALING with the passages which have been produced in refutation of your "beliefs" in earlier posts.

In Christ Jesus,

Carl
Psalm 149:6

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hi Carl!

Let's continue...

You say,

There are DIFFERENT KINDS of saints within Bible

Saints without the Law (like Abel, Noah, Abraham)

UNDER THE LAW (like Moses, Aaron)

under grace (like you)

within the DAY OR WRATH during the great tribulation (like those found in Rev. 13)

Those found in the millennium (rev. 20)

Bible does not teaching on the divisions among the Body of Christ.

You saying on Old Testament saints, there are two different kinds of saints - 'saints without the law' & 'saints under the law'.

In your mind, Abel, Noah, and Abraham, all of them are not same group as Moses & Aaron are.

I ask you a question, aren't Moses and Aaron part of Abraham's promise of Genesis chapter 12?

You saying there are two different kinds of saints of the Old testament. How about the context of Hebrews chapter 11?

Hebrews chapter 11 tells us, both Abel & Moses shared in the same group - "Hall of Faith". So, therefore, they are on the same boat.

Ephesians 2:12-19 teach us, that we as Gentiles were strangers and separated from the commonwealth of Israel. But, NOW we are reconciled together join with Jews into ONE through Jesus Christ by Calvary. No longer, there is divided among the body of Christ. Both are united together in the body of Christ at once forever and ever.

The context of Galatians chapter 3 explains more clear about the covenant and faith.

Dispensationalism teaches there is different plan of salvation between Old Testament and New Testament period. Saints of O.T. were saved by faith plus law. Saints of N.T. were saved by faith only.

Bible does not teaching this.

During Early Church, Paul noticed there are debate among Christians about the laws and faith. He understood, because Early Christians were ought to follow the laws because of Jews Religion tradition plus Torah, and still practicing under the old covenant. Early Christians argued that they must have faith PLUS law both go together for salvation. So, Paul has to write down to explain to to them more clear about faith & salvation.

Gal. 3:6 tells us, Abraham believed in God, he was already counted him into righteousness according to Gen. 15:6 & Rom. 4:3-5. There is no difference between Abraham's faith and our faith, both are same. Abraham was saved by the faith only, not by works in Rom. 4:3-5 same with Eph. 2:8-9. How about Moses, David, etc.? There is no difference between Moses, David & Abraham, of their faith, they have the same faith which is in Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:7 tells us, we should know that, they(O.T. saints include Moses, David, etc. have faith, they are SAME are the children of Abraham.

Gal. 3:8 tells us, the same gospel on the faith, so all nations(include Gentiles) be blessed. Today's gospel is remain the same as what Abraham, Moses have their faith.

Gal. 3:10-11 tell us, the laws do not make us into justified, but the just shall live BY FAITH. Same as we are saved by the faith only(Eph. 2:8-9). Laws do not justified Abraham, Moses, David, etc. Theif faith were justified by through Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:13 tells us, Christ saved us from the law by the cross. Laws do not saved us, include Moses, David, etc. We are saved by the faith through Jesus Christ by the cross only.

Gal. 3:14 is the most important key for every Christians ought to be understand about the faith & salvation. Verse 14 tells us, Gentiles received the blessing and the covenant in Abraham by through Jesus Christ. Obivously, both Jews and Gentiles have their faith in Jesus Christ, they are on the same boat.

Gal. 3:15 tells us, man's own covenant is vain and worthless. We all easy break the covenant. But, Christ never fail the covenant for us.

Gal. 3:16 tells, there is many seeds, but they are in Christ's are ONE seed. It means, include every Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, both Jews and Gentiles all are ONE in Jesus Christ are on the same boat.

Gal. 3:17 tells us, Christ never forget the covenant with His poeple, while they were captivity in Egypt for 430 years, their situation or condition does not affect Christ's covenant.

I could explain all verses of Galatains 3 to you, if I want to, but I urge you to read whole context of chapter 3 talking about the faith.

But, I want to you the most important verses of chapter 3.

Gal 3:26 says, "For ye are ALL the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

That means, include Adam, Abel, Moses, David, etc. of all O.T. saints are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus same as we have faith in Christ are on the same boat - one family.

Gal. 3:27 tells us, we are all baptized(not water baptism, but sealed by Holy Spirit) INTO Christ have put on Christ. Same as Old Testament saints were baptized into Christ in 1 Cor. 10:1-4.

Gal. 3:28 is so very clear telling us, either Jew or Gentile, poor, rich, famous, male, or female, etc. ALLLL are ONE in Christ Jesus.

It is very clear telling us, all O.T. saints & N.T. saints all are ONE in Jesus Christ on the same boat - God's one family.

Gal. 3:29 shows the good point to us, IF you are in Christ's, THEN, you are belong to Abraham's seed, and herit according to the covenant.

Let you know, Old Testament saints did actually received the new covenant by their through Jesus Christ by Calvary. Their faith forward toward Calvary, the same thing as our faith backward toward Calvary. Both are no difference. Both O.T. saints and N.T. saints how have the new covenant through jesus Christ by Calvary by through the faith only.

See? God only have the same family. Adam is my brother, Moses is my brother, David is my brother, Paul is my brother. They are on our same boat belong to Christ's, no difference.

Even include future saints who shall face Antichrist, shall have the same faith as we have are on the same boat.

Moses, Paul, today's saints, future saints all have the part of the 'first resurrection' - eternal life through Jesus Christ.

You say,

Christians REFER to those who in 'PAULINE BASED' in theology (Acts 11)

This teaching is type of Hyper-Dispensationism.

Understand, Acts 11:26 says, "And the disciples were CALLED 'Christians' first in Antioch." The reason, they were called, 'Christians', because unbelievers in the area of Antioch noticed believers were followed Jesus Christ, by teaching on Jesus Christ to the believers, that why, they called them, "Christians". Actually, there is no difference between 'saint' & 'Christian', both are same meaning.

Interesting, in the Old Testament, word, "Jews" was not first appear TILL in 2 Kings 16:6. My question is, why not the word, 'Jews'supposed be first appear in Genesis?

What about word, "Hebrews"? The word, 'Hebrew' first appear in Genesis 14:13, it says, "Abram the Hebrew".

The question is, BEFORE Abraham called by God, was Abraham, a Hebrew(Jew)? Silence.

The big question is, was Adam, a Jew? Silence. Was Adam, a Gentile? Silence. Understand, Adam is same human as us. Same as Abraham is same human as us. There is no difference between Jew & Gentile.

I believe Abraham was called 'Hebrew' in Gen. 14:13, because they noticed Abraham does not worshipped idols, He followed his own God(Christ), they notice Abraham is much different than them. Obivously, he was called out by God. That why, 'church' means "called out" in Greek word - 'ekklesia'. The purpose is a person is called out out of the dark, into the light according to 1 Peter 2:9.

Abraham was a saint same as we are saints.


You say,

The WRATH TO COME (1 Thess. 1) IS the great tribulation

'Wrath' is not same as 'tribulation'. Both are different defintion.

We are appointed for tribulations - John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3; 1 Thess. 3:3-4. Tribulation means troubles, persecutions, trials. Are we appointed for wrath? No.

Why we are appointed for tribulations- 1 Thess. 3:3-4? Because Christ suffered tribulations and died on the cross, so, therefore, we should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

Paul does not saying, 'wrath' is "seven years of Tribulation period".

Wrath is for to punish on unbelievers who reject Jesus Christ, will send them into everlasting fire. John 3:36 tells us, the wrath of God abide upon a person who do not believe on Christ. That mean, a person is facing God's wrath - send perswon to everlasting death(fire).

1 Thess. 1:10 tells us, we are wait for Christ to come to deliver us from the wrath, that means, we shall be deliver (rapture) from the wrath, the wrath is for to grab all unbelievers and cast them into everlasting fire at His coming - Matt 25:31-33,46; 2 Thess. 1:7-9; and Rev. 14:9-11.

You say,

Rubbish, son. They are as different as NIGHT and DAY

I mentioned about the comparing of Matt 24:31 & 1 Thess 4:16-17 both are same.

I better show you the chart on the comparing of Matt. 24:30-31 & 1 Thess 4:15-17:

1. Coming - Matt 24:30
1. Coming- 1 Thess. 4:15

2. Clouds - Matt 24:30
2. Clouds - 1 Thess 4:17

3. Heaven - Matt 24:30
3. Heaven - 1 Thess 4:16

4. Sound - Matt 24:31
4. Shout - 1 Thess 4:16

5. Trumpet - Matt 24:31
5. Trump - 1 Thess 4:17

6. Together - Matt 24:31
6. Together - 1 Thess 4:17

7. Elect - Matt 24:31
7. In Christ - 1 Thess 4:16

8. Angels -Matt 24:31
8. Archangel-1 Thess 4:16-clear in 2 Thess 2:7

9. Wind - Matt 24:31
9. Air - 1 Thess 4:17

If you think both are different, then you do not agree with Paul's writing of 1 Thess 4:15 say, "For this we say unto you by the WORD OF THE LORD..." Where does Paul received come from? Paul received the word from Jesus Christ by the revelation in Gal. 1:12. Paul learned about Christ's coming from Christ same as what Christ told to his disciples.

Christ's teaching on the coming same as what Paul taught.

You say,

CHRIST IS THE LORD

Don't you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord? According to Romans 10:9. Clear, Bible tells us, Jesus is the Lord. Also, He is the deity of God. Both 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord' are no difference, both are same meaning. Both are talking about the second coming.

you say,

The day of the Lord BEGINS when the SUN GOES DOWN at noon at the INVASION OF JERSUALEM(Amos 8, Jer. 6, 15, Zech 14) LONG before the END of the tribulation, which is the sixth seal.

I did read Amos 8, Jer. 6, 15, Zech 14 today. We have to careful what we reading in these. Not all are talking about the future event. Depend on what the grammar of verses are talking about. Amos chapter 8 dscribes about Assyrian army inavded Jerusalem, that was fulfilled 2,900 years ago. Later, Babylon army invaded Israel. The purpose of Assyrian army invaded Jerusalem because of their rebellion against God, God punished them, allow another country to inavded them, and bring them into captivity.

'Sun dark in the noon' speak of the judgment fall upon Jerusalem in their day, their day was terrible and trouble. Sun was not literally darkened around Jerusalem. It shows that it was terrible day for Jews in Jerusalem, because of their punishment.

Remember these were talking about the judgment fall upon Israel & Judah because of their rebellion against their prophets and God's warning. Also, they were punished because of their sin against God. These have do nothing with the future supposed seven year of tribulation.

Joel 2:31 speaks of very clear about the cosmic disturbance same with Matt 24:29 & Rev. 6:12-13, I believe Matt 24:29 of cosmic disturbance are literal things will be happen at the very end of the age follow Christ's coming. God have his power to caused cosmics to be darkened, show the world, that the world will be shaken and afraid, they shall ran and hide from the face of Christ(Rev. 6:15).

You saying the sun shall be darkened at noon. Joel 2:31; Matt 24:29: Acts 2:20; & Rev. 6:12-13- all of these do not saying the sun shall be darkened at noon. Remember, Christ tells us, no man know what hour and day when Christ comes - Matt 24:36,42. Remember, the time zone over the world have 24 different times. China's time zone is 9 am, our time(Eastern Time) is 9 pm. Suppose the cosmic disturbance fall upon the world, the cosmic disturbance shall fall upon China during morning, while in America(Eastern Time)in the nighttime same time.

"Thief in the NIGHT", does not mean Christ actually come during nighttime. He tells us, he shall come to shocked the world, while they are "sleep". For example, at 2 a.m., a person is sleeping in the bedroom, a stranger sneak into the house and shocked person without any expect.

1 Thess. 5:4-8 telling us, that we shall be in the day, not be in darkness. 'Darkness' represents love the world(sins) we are commanded to walk in the light. 'Light' respresents to live godly and separate from the world. Also, we must always be watch, not let us to be sleep. 'Sleep' represents not watch, and playing sins and stay in the dark love the world. Christ warns us, if we stay in the darkness by the time Christ arrives, He shall come to thief us. Means, He will send the angels to grab us while "sleep" will send us to hell. That why, Paul tells us, we must be blameless till the Day of Christ, so, we shall not be ashamed at Christ's coming, because we all shall face the judgement day.

You say,

Good grief, son. You're now to DO AWY with the time of Jacob's trouble from Paul's statement in 1 Thess. 5?

Paul does not discuss about Jacob's trouble of 1 Thess 5. Paul discusses about our prepared for Christ's coming, warn us, that we should not be in the dark, because Christ shall come like as thief. People who are not watch, they will be caught in the thief, and shall face great suffering, and no one shall escape from the judgement - everlasting punishment(fire).

You say,

That's NOT at the beginning of Daniel WEEK, but the MIDST, when Micheal stands. Dan. 11, 12, Matt. 24)

I believe Dan. 12:1 speaks of Micheal, the archangel stands for people mean, He will protecting us, while face great tribulations, remember, Micheal is the captian of the host of angels. Micheal is not the only person to protect us, also, many angels are protecting us all the times. Notice, Dan. 12:1b-2 tell us, all people shall be risen and face the great white throne, they shall be delivery out, because of their name are written in the book of life. Verse 2 tells us, there shall be a general resurrection for both unbelievers and believers on the last day(John 6:39,40,44, & 54), some shall go into everlasting punishment, some shall be shamed, some shall go into everlasting life refers to Matt. 25:46.

Again, Dan. 9:24-27 do not discuss about the future supposed 7 year of Tribulation period. It talks about the prophecy of the coming Messiah for salvation & covenant - calvary already fulfilled 2,000 years that was 490 years later after Daniel wrote it.

I understand of Dan. 12:11-12 speak of Messiah who shall put the daily sacrifices away that was Calvary. Christ said, "It is finished" - John 19:30. Christ was cut off after his 3 1/2 years of ministry on earth. Notice 45 days between 1290 days & 1335 days, I believe it relates with Pentacost Day. Because, 'pentacost' means fifty days. I believe disciples were waiting for the Holy Spirit to pour upon them that why they received the blessed - vs. 12. I will discuss on Dan. 12:11-12 more deep in another new topic or another time.

You say,

The time of Jacob's trouble STARTS at the midst of the week

None find anywhere in the Bible support your comment.

Jacob's trouble already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago when Babylon invaded Jerusalem - please read Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30.

You say,

Wrong son. The PROPHECY concerns BOTH HOUSES, not just Judah, LOOK AT THE BOOK! They BOTH haven't come back yet! (see Ez. 37)

Disp/premill/pretrib saying on Ezekiel 37 will be fulfill when Israel will be return back to thier land and there shall be restoration nation - Israel. That was fulfilled in either year 1948 or 1967.

I did read Ezekiel 37 before. It talking about the resurrection of the body. It will be fulfilled at Christ's coming before the event of Gog & Magog of Ez. 38-39 occured.

I understand of Ezekiel chapter 38 & 39 both are the picture of Armageddon. 'Gog & Magog' find in Rev. 20:8. It does not speak of future two Gog wars, but ONE Gog war on the last day of the age at Christ's coming.

The resurrection of the saints shall be occured first before Armageddon, because Rev. 16:12-16 tell us, when Euphrate River shall be dried up, allow army of the east(China?) march across the river prepare for the battle of Armageddon, THEN Christ shall come, and take us, FIRST, all saints who died in Christ shall be risen THEN remain of saints who are alive shall be caught up - 1 Thess 4:16-17. Then, Christ will war against the armies - Armageddon - Rev. 16:16. Gog & Magog is Armageddon.

I believe Ezekiel chapter 37 describes about the resurrection of the saints.

You saying both houses are not yet come back.

Understand, Jer. 31:31 speaks of the new covenant with both Israel and Judah. It refers to Heb. 8:8. It already fulfilled by calvary. That we are under the new covenant, not under the old covenant anymore.

Remember, Old Testament telling us, Both Judah & Israel broke the covenant with God, because of their sins against God. Both were divided into two kingdoms. There were two tribes - Judah, ten tribes under Israel. Israel was taken by Assyria. Then, Judah was taken by Babylon.

But, now Judah and Israel are unity together again through the new covenant. It speaks of spiritual Israel. We are spiritual Israel. Please read whole context of Romans chapter 11. God does not forsake his people(physical Jews), but case physical Jews out because of their unbeliefs. But physical Jews are remain on the same tree because of their belief. Gentiles are now grafting unto the same tree to join with Israel. So, we are all Israel.

That what the new covenant is all about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

I will reply back to you tomorrow. Because I have to go to work - 3rd shift job tonight.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "Dispensationalism teaches there is different
plan of salvation between Old Testament and New Testament period.
Saints of O.T. were saved by faith plus law.
Saints of N.T. were saved by faith only."

DeafPosttrib: "Bible does not teaching this."

Yep, the Bible doesn't teach it.
I've been a dispensationalist for 52 years and
never heard this of my dispy friends. O.T. Saints,
not knowing about Jesus, were saved by Jesus
by faith in God's promise to Abraham
N.T. saints knowing about Jesus, were saved by
Jesus thru faith. Tribulation saints will saved
as stillborns - as soon as they confess Jesus as Lord,
they will have their head lifted - saved by Jesus
through faith. Literal/physical Millinnial Kingdom
people on a literal/physical earth will get saved
by Jesus, through faith.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Deafpostrib,

The Body of Christ isn't divided. The SAINTS IN TIME are. It is a PART of the "whole family" of God. (Eph.3)

Paul STATED the "divisions" IN TIME concerning the saints WITHIN HIS EPISTLES. ALL SAINTS are not "in the body of Christ". You didn't do anything WITH THE VERSES, which were quoted. IT IS A DISPENSATIONAL UNION, which was CREATED "after" the historical coming of the Lord. (That's Rom.5 and Eph.2)

Quote:

Bible does not teaching on the divisions among the Body of Christ.

Unquote.

Quote:

You saying on Old Testament saints, there are two different kinds of saints - 'saints without the law' & 'saints under the law'.

Unquote.

No, I didn't SAY it. PAUL DID. Read it. Rom.2,3,5,6, etc.

Unquote:

In your mind, Abel, Noah, and Abraham, all of them are not same group as Moses & Aaron are.

Unquote.

IN THE HOLY SPIRIT'S words through Paul, THEY WERE SEPARATED IN TIME. (Rom.5)

Quote;

Ephesians 2:12-19 teach us, that we as Gentiles were strangers and separated from the commonwealth of Israel. But, NOW we are reconciled together join with Jews into ONE through Jesus Christ by Calvary. No longer, there is divided among the body of Christ. Both are united together in the body of Christ at once forever and ever.

The context of Galatians chapter 3 explains more clear about the covenant and faith.

Dispensationalism teaches there is different plan of salvation between Old Testament and New Testament period. Saints of O.T. were saved by faith plus law. Saints of N.T. were saved by faith only.

Bible does not teaching this.

Unquote.

Wrong again. You are quoting Paul's HISTORICAL REVELATION, which IS NOT STATED to apply to "PREVIOUS SAINTS". It is applicable ONLY to those WITHIN THE BODY, which was CREATED historically.

The Bible STATES that Abraham was JUSTIFIED BY FAITH AND WORKS. (James 2) Paul STATED it was NO MORE of works! (Rom.11) The dispensational DISTINCTIONS of without law, under law, under grace, etc. are connected to DIFFERENT SAINTS IN TIME. That truth is given by Paul.

You "simply" IGNORE the statements in the verses.

OT salvation IS NOT the same as NT salvation. They were NOT under the NT. It was NOT in effect. They BECAME "HEIRS" of the righteousness.(see Heb.11) IT WAS NOT REVEALED until Jesus Christ, historically came.

THEIR JUSTIFICATION INCLUDED WHAT THEY WERE TOLD TO DO. (Abraham's justification CAME in Gen.22, not Gen.15!) See James 2.

Quote:

Gal. 3:6 tells us, Abraham believed in God, he was already counted him into righteousness according to Gen. 15:6 & Rom. 4:3-5. There is no difference between Abraham's faith and our faith, both are same. Abraham was saved by the faith only, not by works in Rom. 4:3-5 same with Eph. 2:8-9. How about Moses, David, etc.? There is no difference between Moses, David & Abraham, of their faith, they have the same faith which is in Jesus Christ.

Unquote.

Gen.15 SPEAKS of the "INHERITANCE", not Abraham's PERSONAL SALVATION, which James does. Our salvation (Rom.4, Gal.3) is LIKENED unto how ISRAEL RECEIVED THE INHERITANCE THROUGH ABRAHAM, which is by grace through faith. The imputation of righteousness is for ISRAEL, as a nation. (Micah 6, Num.23) They got it from Abraham.

Quote:

Gal. 3:8 tells us, the same gospel on the faith, so all nations(include Gentiles) be blessed. Today's gospel is remain the same as what Abraham, Moses have their faith.

Unquote.

OT saints WERE NOT saved by Paul's gospel of the grace of God. It was included within the MYSTERY (Eph.3, 6) revealed to Paul. (1 Cor.9, Gal.1)

RIGHTEOUSNESS is given UNDER THE LAW by OBSERVANCE. (Deut.6, Luke 1, Phil.3) Faith will guarantee that you will DO what he has said. (Heb.11:1) They had faith and DID what he said.

I do not teach that the LAW saved anyone, so your explanation, is superfluous.

Quote:

Gal. 3:16 tells, there is many seeds, but they are in Christ's are ONE seed. It means, include every Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, both Jews and Gentiles all are ONE in Jesus Christ are on the same boat.

Gal 3:26 says, "For ye are ALL the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

That means, include Adam, Abel, Moses, David, etc. of all O.T. saints are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus same as we have faith in Christ are on the same boat - one family.

Gal. 3:27 tells us, we are all baptized(not water baptism, but sealed by Holy Spirit) INTO Christ have put on Christ. Same as Old Testament saints were baptized into Christ in 1 Cor. 10:1-4.

Gal. 3:28 is so very clear telling us, either Jew or Gentile, poor, rich, famous, male, or female, etc. ALLLL are ONE in Christ Jesus.

It is very clear telling us, all O.T. saints & N.T. saints all are ONE in Jesus Christ on the same boat - God's one family.

Unquote.

PRIVATE INTERPETATION. In Gal.3, Paul is speaking of believers of his gospel AFTER the historical coming of the Lord Jesus. He didn't STATE that ADAM was in the body and UNDER GRACE. Grace didn't show up UNTIL Jesus Christ came, which was REVEALED IN TIME to Paul. (1 Tim.1, 2 Tim.1, Titus 1) OT saints were not stated by Paul to be IN THE BODY OF CHRIST in Gal.3. That is EISOGESIS.

1 Cor.10 is not a reference to the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. The FIRST OCCURRNENCE of the baptism or thE Holy Spirit was in Acts 2.

Quote:

See? God only have the same family. Adam is my brother, Moses is my brother, David is my brother, Paul is my brother. They are on our same boat belong to Christ's, no difference.

Even include future saints who shall face Antichrist, shall have the same faith as we have are on the same boat.

Moses, Paul, today's saints, future saints all have the part of the 'first resurrection' - eternal life through Jesus Christ.

Unquote.

THE FAMILY OF GOD contains the body of Christ, but the Body of Christ DOES NOT contain the whole family of God, son. You IGNORE, DENY, and ERASE the DISTINCTIONS IN TIME "separating" them. That's WHY you can't get your Bible straight, applying subsequent revelation to past and future periods of time.

No, THAT TEACHING is Pauline dispensationalism QUOTING Luke,Paul's buddy, as to what he SAID.

Quote:

Understand, Acts 11:26 says, "And the disciples were CALLED 'Christians' first in Antioch." The reason, they were called, 'Christians', because unbelievers in the area of Antioch noticed believers were followed Jesus Christ, by teaching on Jesus Christ to the believers, that why, they called them, "Christians". Actually, there is no difference between 'saint' & 'Christian', both are same meaning.

Unquote.

Wrong son. Aaron was NOT a Christian, but he was a saint. YOU FANTASIZE YOUR THEOLOGY.

There were no Christians BEFORE Antioch, WHERE PAUL taught his gospel message of REVELATION. There were ONLY THOSE called Nazarenes, who were a SECT of the Jews, who went to the TEMPLE. (Acts 24)

Quote.

I believe Abraham was called 'Hebrew' in Gen. 14:13, because they noticed Abraham does not worshipped idols, He followed his own God(Christ), they notice Abraham is much different than them. Obivously, he was called out by God. That why, 'church' means "called out" in Greek word - 'ekklesia'. The purpose is a person is called out out of the dark, into the light according to 1 Peter 2:9.

Abraham was a saint same as we are saints.


Unquote.

Mindless foolishness. Abraham followed the FATHER, not the Son, who is Christ. You can't get progressive revelation.

Abraham was not a Christian, son. He was a Gentile, HEBREW, who was one of the FATHERS of the Jews.


Your spill about tribulation is MONOTONOUS. The great tribulation BEGINS in the MIDST of Daniel's week. (Oh, that's right, that's your problem. You don't BELIEVE in Daniel' week.)

Paul didn't say the wrath of God.

Son, you didn't COMPARE the cross references of the wrath to come. It is a term which IDENTIFIES
the great TRIBULATION. (Matt.3,24, Luke 3, 21)

Quote:

Wrath is for to punish on unbelievers who reject Jesus Christ, will send them into everlasting fire. John 3:36 tells us, the wrath of God abide upon a person who do not believe on Christ. That mean, a person is facing God's wrath - send perswon to everlasting death(fire).

1 Thess. 1:10 tells us, we are wait for Christ to come to deliver us from the wrath, that means, we shall be deliver (rapture) from the wrath, the wrath is for to grab all unbelievers and cast them into everlasting fire at His coming - Matt 25:31-33,46; 2 Thess. 1:7-9; and Rev. 14:9-11.

Unquote.

Private interpretation APART from the context.


Quote:

I mentioned about the comparing of Matt 24:31 & 1 Thess 4:16-17 both are same.

I better show you the chart on the comparing of Matt. 24:30-31 & 1 Thess 4:15-17:

1. Coming - Matt 24:30
1. Coming- 1 Thess. 4:15

2. Clouds - Matt 24:30
2. Clouds - 1 Thess 4:17

3. Heaven - Matt 24:30
3. Heaven - 1 Thess 4:16

4. Sound - Matt 24:31
4. Shout - 1 Thess 4:16

5. Trumpet - Matt 24:31
5. Trump - 1 Thess 4:17

6. Together - Matt 24:31
6. Together - 1 Thess 4:17

7. Elect - Matt 24:31
7. In Christ - 1 Thess 4:16

8. Angels -Matt 24:31
8. Archangel-1 Thess 4:16-clear in 2 Thess 2:7

9. Wind - Matt 24:31
9. Air - 1 Thess 4:17

If you think both are different, then you do not agree with Paul's writing of 1 Thess 4:15 say, "For this we say unto you by the WORD OF THE LORD..." Where does Paul received come from? Paul received the word from Jesus Christ by the revelation in Gal. 1:12. Paul learned about Christ's coming from Christ same as what Christ told to his disciples.

Christ's teaching on the coming same as what Paul taught.

Unquote.

Your charts are mindless.

One coming is WITHIN the day of the Lord, the other before it. Sound of a trumpet is not a shout. A trump (sound) is NOT a trumpet (instrucment). A gathering of LIVING is not a gathering of LIVING AND DEAD. ELECT is not SYNONYMOUS to being "in Christ". Angels is PLURAL and of different kind than a SINGULAR archangel. WINDS deal with directions not AIR.

You have a problem in "UNDERSTANDING" things that differ that ONLY the Holy Spirit can help you with. If not, then it's EDUCATIONAL, in being able to read and comprehend WORDS.

Quote:

Don't you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord? According to Romans 10:9. Clear, Bible tells us, Jesus is the Lord. Also, He is the deity of God. Both 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord' are no difference, both are same meaning. Both are talking about the second coming.

Unquote.

Don't be silly. The day of Christ IS NOT the day of the Lord. The Lord is a refernce to the FATHER, not the Son. Surely you didn't forget that the Father is Lord AND the Holy Spirit also, BESIDES the Son.

you say,


Quote:

I did read Amos 8, Jer. 6, 15, Zech 14 today. We have to careful what we reading in these. Not all are talking about the future event. Depend on what the grammar of verses are talking about. Amos chapter 8 dscribes about Assyrian army inavded Jerusalem, that was fulfilled 2,900 years ago. Later, Babylon army invaded Israel. The purpose of Assyrian army invaded Jerusalem because of their rebellion against God, God punished them, allow another country to inavded them, and bring them into captivity.

'Sun dark in the noon' speak of the judgment fall upon Jerusalem in their day, their day was terrible and trouble. Sun was not literally darkened around Jerusalem. It shows that it was terrible day for Jews in Jerusalem, because of their punishment.

Remember these were talking about the judgment fall upon Israel & Judah because of their rebellion against their prophets and God's warning. Also, they were punished because of their sin against God. These have do nothing with the future supposed seven year of tribulation.

Joel 2:31 speaks of very clear about the cosmic disturbance same with Matt 24:29 & Rev. 6:12-13, I believe Matt 24:29 of cosmic disturbance are literal things will be happen at the very end of the age follow Christ's coming. God have his power to caused cosmics to be darkened, show the world, that the world will be shaken and afraid, they shall ran and hide from the face of Christ(Rev. 6:15).

You saying the sun shall be darkened at noon. Joel 2:31; Matt 24:29: Acts 2:20; & Rev. 6:12-13- all of these do not saying the sun shall be darkened at noon. Remember, Christ tells us, no man know what hour and day when Christ comes - Matt 24:36,42. Remember, the time zone over the world have 24 different times. China's time zone is 9 am, our time(Eastern Time) is 9 pm. Suppose the cosmic disturbance fall upon the world, the cosmic disturbance shall fall upon China during morning, while in America(Eastern Time)in the nighttime same time.

"Thief in the NIGHT", does not mean Christ actually come during nighttime. He tells us, he shall come to shocked the world, while they are "sleep". For example, at 2 a.m., a person is sleeping in the bedroom, a stranger sneak into the house and shocked person without any expect.

1 Thess. 5:4-8 telling us, that we shall be in the day, not be in darkness. 'Darkness' represents love the world(sins) we are commanded to walk in the light. 'Light' respresents to live godly and separate from the world. Also, we must always be watch, not let us to be sleep. 'Sleep' represents not watch, and playing sins and stay in the dark love the world. Christ warns us, if we stay in the darkness by the time Christ arrives, He shall come to thief us. Means, He will send the angels to grab us while "sleep" will send us to hell. That why, Paul tells us, we must be blameless till the Day of Christ, so, we shall not be ashamed at Christ's coming, because we all shall face the judgement day.

Unquote.

You better believe we have to be careful. If not, we'll wind up LIKE YOU. You just DENIED and NEGATE what Paul stated. ALL SCRIPURE is doctrinal. You made it historical. You then denied what Amos said, spiritualizing it. The fact of the texts state that Jerusalem was and WILL BE (in that day, the day of the Lord)ATTACKED at noon, when the SUN GOES DOWN.

Wrong, son. The ASSYRIANS did not attack Jerusalem and WRECK the temple. (Sennacherib was kept OUT.)

Joel 2 speaks of WITHIN THE DAY, while Amos speaks of BEFORE it. That's why the difference.

God goes by his time. He stated that the SUN would go down at noon. Unbelief, inability to read what God said, and failure to understand what God says contributes to your DENIAL and NEGATION of what God says.

Yes, Christ does actually COME in the night. The NIGHT WATCHES of Mark 13 are IN THE NIGHT. The context is his post trib coming.

He comes AT NOON, as he appeared to Paul.

He comes IN THE MORNING, as in Mal.4 and 1 Sam.23.

Three appearances at three different times.


Quote:

Paul does not discuss about Jacob's trouble of 1 Thess 5. Paul discusses about our prepared for Christ's coming, warn us, that we should not be in the dark, because Christ shall come like as thief. People who are not watch, they will be caught in the thief, and shall face great suffering, and no one shall escape from the judgement - everlasting punishment(fire).

Unquote.

Only in the eyes of someone who doesn't GET what Paul refers to BY DIRECT STATEMENT of the prophet Jermiah.

You AGAIN evaded the fact that the prophecy of Jer.30 concerns the HOUSES of Judah and Israel. That's BOTH. It's not HISTORICAL for the Babylonian captivity of Nebuchanezzar.

Quote:


Understand, Jer. 31:31 speaks of the new covenant with both Israel and Judah. It refers to Heb. 8:8. It already fulfilled by calvary. That we are under the new covenant, not under the old covenant anymore.

Remember, Old Testament telling us, Both Judah & Israel broke the covenant with God, because of their sins against God. Both were divided into two kingdoms. There were two tribes - Judah, ten tribes under Israel. Israel was taken by Assyria. Then, Judah was taken by Babylon.

But, now Judah and Israel are unity together again through the new covenant. It speaks of spiritual Israel. We are spiritual Israel. Please read whole context of Romans chapter 11. God does not forsake his people(physical Jews), but case physical Jews out because of their unbeliefs. But physical Jews are remain on the same tree because of their belief. Gentiles are now grafting unto the same tree to join with Israel. So, we are all Israel.

That what the new covenant is all about.


Unquote.

You're something. You DENY the divisions IN TIME, then quote them.

Judah and Israel (POLITICAL DIVISIONS) are NOT YET under the new covenant. Paul SAID their heart had NOT turned to the Lord, at the time of the writing of 2 Cor.3. Read it son.

Deafpostrib, all you do is misread, deny, spiritualize, negate, or change something, when it doesn't FIT what you believe. I have poiinted those things out over and over again.

In Christ Jesus,

Carl
Psalm 149:6

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good evening Carl!

Please be patience with me. I am working on this post to replay back to you, what you saying to me this morning. Maybe I will not be done on post by the time I go to work - 3rd shift job tonihgt. But, for sure I will finish it tomorrow morning.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

I'm back.

You say,

It is A DISPENSATIONAL UNION, which was CREATED "after" the historical coming of the Lord. (That's Rom. 5 and Eph 2)

I did read Romans chapter 5. What's your point on Romans chapter 5? I think in your point of Romans chapter 5 talks about the law and the grace, in your mind, law was under the Old Testament period, now we are u7nder the grace - New Testament period, am I correct?

Law is like as mirror, laws show us that we break them, that we are sin against God. Laws do not saved us. These do nothing with us.

Romans 5:12 tells us, one man(Adam) sinned, and he died, so, death passed upon all people because of sin. We all shall die because of sin, no matter which Jew or Gentile, both are same, and all have sinned.

We are saved by the grace through faith. Same as what Abraham does.

Soon, I will discuss on grace.

You say,

No, I didn't SAY it, Paul DID. Read it. Rom. 2,3,5,6, etc.

So, I read Romans chapter 2,3,5, and 6 see what Paul saying.

Notice, Romans 2:11 says, "For there is NO respect of persons with God." It tells us, God does not care what race we are. God don't care how important person is like as King, or President, etc. In God's sight, all people both Jews and Gentiles are same, and all have sinned.

I think in your mind of Romans 2:9 shows there is a dispensational between Jews and Gentiles. It does saying to Jews first, then Gentiles, The point of verse 9 tells us, the tribulation and anguish do come upon both Jews and Gentiles, it apply for everyone, not just for Jews only.

Also, I think the other things of Romans chapter 2, what in your mind is verse 24-29 seems speak of dispensational.

Paul's point about there is no difference between circumcision and uncircumcision. All Jews(males) are required circumcised. None of Gentiles are being circumised. Paul's point talk about the laws itself do not make them justified. Both are are sinned.

During Early Church time, there was debate about the requirements for salvation by being circumised, and there was much debate about the laws and salvation. Paul told them, we do not keeping the laws in order to be saved.

During 400 years of silence between the last prophet of Jeremiah to the birth of Christ. Pharisees, Scribes, Rabbis were added new laws unto the Torah, they demanded them to obey all Laws in order for salvation.

Paul often emphasis to them, about the faith. He said, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay; by the law of faith." - Romans 3:27. We do not depend upon the laws only, but depend on the faith toward Jesus Christ only. Many Jews easy forget God, and focus on the laws or Torah too much, that why they do not put their faith on Christ only.

Paul continued, through Romans chapter 4. He tells us, Abraham was saved not by his own good works, but by his faith only according Romans 4:3-5. Same as Ephesians 2:8-9.

I am sure that you saying what about James 2:24?

I want to telling you, I used to believe in the doctrine of security salvation -"once saved always saved" for many years. Now, I am no longer believe in that doctrine. Because Bible teaches us there are lot of conditional salvation. I did debate on salvation issue in other topic in this forum lately.

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." I am sure what in your mind, that verse speak only to Abraham and the Old testament saints only, not apply to us. Does James was actually saying? No. It always apply to us all throughout all centuries from Adam to the end of the world.

Interesting, Late Martin Luther, the founder of Reformation, and ex-monk of Roman Catholic. He wanted the book of James to be rid off the Bible. He said, there is much conflict teaching between James and Paul on faith & work. Is there conflict between James and Paul? No. Both are correct. I am sure that some of baptist pastors seem saying there is much conflict teaching between James and Paul on faith & work. Because most of baptist pastors do teaching on security salvation, and believed in the grace through faith only not by works (Eph. 2:8-9).

Excuse me, I seem typing this little longer. But, I am trying to telling you about faith and work.

Again, I want to explaining you on James 2:24-26. James tells us, Abraham was justified by works with faith. Rahab the harlot was justified by works through faith. Notice verse 26 says, for example, person having a body, but without spirit(soul) is dead same as faith without works is dead also.

Often, many baptists saying, 'We are saved by the faith only, not of works, no matter how often we deserved them, we still go to heaven because of faith only.'. That is type of easy believism. In fact, I have seen so many Christians who claim, they only have faith in Christ, but they doing nothing serve for the Lord, they are lazy, obivously, their spirit are dead, that means they are spirutually lost. Does that mean they are lose- go to hell? Yes.

Please read Matt 25:14-30 talk about the parable of talents and servants. It always apply to us, aren't we the servant of God? Matt. 25:30 clearly warn us, Christ sahll saying to one of us, that we are lazy and wicked servant, shallc ast into outer darkness - everlasting punishment at the judgment day.

I suggest you reread Hebrews chapter 11 again. There are lists of the Old Testament saints, all of them were justified by the faith only. What were of their examples of faith in Hebrews chapter 11? By their ACTIONS. For a example, a person saying 'I believed in Jesus" is that all? What about action? NOTHING, so, that mean a person is not going to heaven while without have actions.

Notice Romans 1:17 says, "..as it is written, The just shall LIVE by faith." . Where does Paul quoted it come from? It quoted from Habakkuk 2:4. Does it apply to the Old Testment saints only?? No. Hab. 2:4 always apply to us either Jew or Gentile as individually throughout all centuries, because Paul also penned Romans 1:17 always apply to us both Jew and Gentile well.

What does 'live by faith' means? It speak of our walking by the faith, it is a perfect example of Abraham. He was walking with his faith, not know where he goes, but he have faith in Christ - Heb. 11:8-10.

Does Hebrews chapter 11 apply to the Old Testament saints limited only? No. It always apply to us all individual either Jew or Gentile throughout all centuries.

I better discuss in other topic either at 'judgment seat of Christ - part two', or 'shall a Christian go to hell?' . These topics which I posted there, please come and debate over there, not in this topic. Because I think I seem just off the topic in this topic already.

My point of Romans chapter 2 to 6, Paul speaks to us both Jew and Gentiles, that we are all sinned, and laws do not make us justified, we have to have faith in Jesus Christ only, also Paul tells us, we do not fulfill with lust or flesh, urge us to walk in the spirit - Romans 6:12; and Gal. 5:16. He means that it commands to apply every individuals either Jew or Gentile throughout all centuries from Adam to the end of the world.

God's plan of salvation have nothing chnage and does not effect on either Old Testament saints or New Testament saints. God's plan of salvation for everyone through Jesus Christ by Calvary.

You say,

IN THE HOLY SPIRIT'S words through Paul, THEY WERE SEPARATED IN TIME

You mean, Gentiles were not include salvation during Old testament period?

No, not what the point what Paul was talking about. Paul's point is we are not saved by obeying the laws, we are saved by the faith only, same with all Old Testament saints were justified by the faith. There were several Gentiles in the Old Testament period were saved by faith - such as Rahab, the Harlot, Ruth, city of Nineveh, etc. The salvation was not limited for the Jews during Old Testament period only. It also, inlude Gentiles.

You say,

Grace didn't show up UNTIL Jesus Christ came, which was REVEALED IN TIME to Paul (1 Tim 1; 2 Tim 1; Titus 1) OT saints were not stated by Paul to be IN THE BODY OF CHRIST in Gal. 3

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." - Genesis 6:8

"And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand." - Genesis 39:4.

There are more words-'grace' in the Old Testameent. Grace does not limited to the New Testament saints only, it always apply to everyone throughout all centuries from the beginning to the end. I suggest you looking in the 'STRONG'S' Concordance, for word, 'grace', there are many word 'grace' find in the Old Testament.

There were no Christians BEFORE Antioch

Weren't 3,000 saved during Pentacost Day, Christians?

Weren't the 12 disciples of Christ, Christians?

The same thing, I ask you, weren't 3,000 souls saved during Pentacost Day - saints?

Weren't the 12 disciples of Christ, saints?

I better to define the word 'Christian', what it means. It means, a person who FOLLOW Christ, is Christian.

Many religions claim they are 'Christians', but most of them do NOT follow Christ, they are not true Christian.

A true Christian, who obey and follow Jesus Christ.

Abeaham was a true Christian, because he obeyed and followed Christ.

By the way, there is no difference between 'Messiah' and 'Christ'. I am sure what in dispensationalists' mind on the difference between 'Messiah' and 'Christ'. They saying, Messiah is Jews' saviour. They saying, Christ is Church's saviour. Isn't Christ our Messiah? Christ means, the anointed one. Many Jews know that.

You say,

Mindless foolishness, Abraham followed the FATHER, not the Son, who is Christ. You can't get progressive revelation

"And as touching the dead, that they rise; have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" - Mark 12:26

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, was glad." - John 8:56

Obivously, Christ tells us, Abraham was followed Him - Jesus Christ. Because Jesus is the deity of God, also, He is the son of God.

You say,

Abraham was not a Christian, son. He was a Gentile, HEBREW, who was one of the FATHERS of the Jews.

Wait a minute..... you say, Abraham was a GENTILE.

But, you saying Abraham is a Hebrew.

Please define to me what the word 'Hebrew' means?

Keep in mind, Abraham was born as Gentile in the first place. He was not a 'Jew' till 70 years later. But it does not matter to me, either he was Gentile or Jew, he was a human same as us.

Also, you saying, Abraham who was one of the FATHERS of the Jews.

Limited to Jews only???

What about Genesis 17:4 - "...thou shalt be a father of many nations."?

Whose are many nations? Jews only????

I better paused in this post. I will continue discuss in the next post part two.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20- Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

To be continued...

You say,

The great tribulation BEGINS in the MIDST of Daniel's week

The context of Daniel 9:24-27 do not discuss about tribulation or persecution either. It discuss about the prophecy of the coming Messiah for salvation on Calvary, that was fulfilled 490 years later after Daniel wrote.

Also, there is no gap theory between 69th week and 70th week of Dan. 9:26 & 27.

Dan. 9:26 tells us, Messiah was cut off AFTER 69th week, that means he was crucified during in the midst of the 70th week- verse 27.

There is no 2,000 years gap between 69th week & 70th week according Dispensationalism doctrine.

Dan. 9:27 does not saying tribulation shalt begin in the midst of the 70th week. It tells us, Christ stopped daily scarifices and destroyed it by Calvary during 70th week, that was 490 years later after Daniel penned. How I know? In John 2:19 tells us, Christ said, He'll destroy this temple. He fulfilled it by Calvary 2,000 years ago. we do not need physical building of the temple anymore. Now, Christ is our temple.

You say,

oh that's right, that's your problem. You don't BELIEVE in Daniel's week.

I never saying it. I BELIEVE what Daniel 9:24-27 talking about. It was fulfilled by Calvary 2,000 years ago. We do not have to wait for the coming "Daniel 70th Week" or seven year of tribulation period or 3 1/2 years of tribulation period(according to your teaching). It already fulfilled by Calvary 2,000 years ago.

you say,

Sound of trumpet is not a shout...A trump(sound) is NOT a trumpet

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last TRUMP: for the the TRUMPET shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." -1 Cor. 15:52

Aren't 'trump' and 'trumpet' of verse 52 same?

Obivously, verse 52 tells us, the trumpet shall be sound, clearly, it tells us, the trumpet shall be shout as we shall hear the sound of it.

You say,

A gathering of LIVING is not a gathering of LIVING AND DEAD

Why not Christ telling to his disciples that Christ shall come as He ride on the white horse in Matt. 24:29-31?

Is Christ riding on white horse being excluded from Matt. 24:29-31?

How about Zecharaiah 14:4? Zech. 14:4 does not saying Messiah shall ride on white horse. Does Messiah riding on the white horse being excluded from Zech. 14:4?

Not necesscary for Christ telling his disciples, about the resurrection of the saints at His coming in Matthew 24, because He already mentioned resurrection to them earlier according to John chapter 5 and 6 too. The disciples already learned on the resurrection on the last day from Christ earlier before Christ taught them of Matthew 24.

There are many details in the Bible telling what theses will be happening at Christ's coming, yet, all of these will be include at Christ's coming on the last day go together.

You say,

Elect is not SYNONYMOUS to being "in Christ"

"Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's ELECT? It is God that justifieth." - Romans 8:33

"According as he hath chosen us IN Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" - Ephesians 1:4

"Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering;" - Col. 3:12

"ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through santification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." - 1 Peter 1:2

Amd more.... These are clearly telling us, that we are God's elect that we are sanctified by through Christ's bloos on the cross. Both Jew and Gentile put their faith in Christ, they are God's elect.

Elect means, chosen. We are called out of darkness and into the light, as we are a chosen generation according to 1 Peter 2:9.

Matt 24:31 tells us, Christ shall send His angels to gathering his chosen people over the world and all shall be gathering together unto him same with 2 Thess. 2:1.

You say,

Angel is plural and of different kind than a singular archnagel

Paul tells in 2 Thess. 1:7, Christ shall come with his angels, obivously, Christ shall not come by himself alone.

Also, let you know, there was no chapter and verse in the Bible during Paul's time. These were written in epistles(letters).

2 Thess. 2:17 does have the same topic on Christ's coming with 1 Thess. 4:15-17. Because first and second epistle of Thessalonians, these are the topic talking about Christ's coming.

Christ does not saying Micheal, the archangel being excluded from Matt. 24:31. No doubt, Micheal, the archangel will always be invlove with angels, because he is the captian of the host. Yes, Micheal, the archangel shall be invlove at Christ's coming for the harvest time.

You say,

WINDS deal with directions not AIR

Then telling me, what does 'air' mean?

You say,

THe Lord is a reference to the FATHER, not the Son. Surely you didn't forget that the Father is LORD AND the Holy Spirit also, BESIDES the Son.

Christ said, "I and my Father are ONE." - John 10:30

Philip asked Christ, he wants to see God, the Father in person. Then, Christ told him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I AM IN THE FATHER, and the Father IN ME? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works." - John 14:8-10.

Clearly, Christ tells us, that He is the deity of God. Christ is God.

Yes, Abraham, Moses, David, Old Testament saints followed Jesus Christ. Obivously, 1 Cor. 10:1-4 tell us, Moses and people in the wilderness were followed the rock which is Jesus Christ. Yes, they did followed God. Christ is the son of God, also He is the deity of God. Christ is 100% God.

You say,

Wrong, son. The ASSYRIANS did not attack Jerusalem and WRECK the temple.

I am not sure which one of Babylonians or Assyrians did invaded Jerusalem and destroyed Temple. But, the history in the Old Testament telling us, Jerusalem already destroyed, and the temple was destroyed, Hebrews were brought into captivity.

'sun was darkened in noon' that does not relate with Christ's coming. That discuss about how was terrible event fell upon Israel with the judgement in the past.

Grasshopper would agree with me, that 'sun darkened in the noon' have do nothing with Christ's coming, it was talking the judgment fell down upon Israel because of their rebellion against God.

You say,

Joel 2 speaks of WITHIN THE DAY, while Amos speaks of BEFORE it.

These do mot matter to me about the timing of the Day of the Lord.

Bible does not teaching that the day of the Lord being stretching into either 3 1/2 years or 7 years include 1,000 years. Bible teaches us, the day of the Lord shall not come till the cosmic disturbance must be occured first - Matt 24:29, Rev. 6:12-15. Day of the Lord means on that day the Lord Jesus Christ shall come to earth for to judge the world.

Yes, Christ does not actually COME in the NIGHT

Maybe you are right. Yes, Christ shall come in the night somewhere over the world, for example, we are in America at 12 noon in the daytime, people in China at 12 midnight is nighttime, Christ might come while people sleeping in China during night time, at the same time we all shall be caught up in the air during daytime, at the same time, people in China shall be caught up in the air during nighttime. World have 24 hours timing zones.

'Thief in the night' does not take mean 'night' into literally. It shows us, Christ's coming will be surprised and shocked to the world without any expect. Also, it tells us, his coming is the judgement day to take all unbelievers away - Matt. 24:40-41, that is called, 'thief in the night'. Understand?

By the way, I do BELIEVE the sky over the world shall be darkened caused by sun and stars become darkened at same time before Christ coming, that why it called, 'thief in the night'.

He comes AT NOON, as he appeared to Paul

This passage has do nothing with second coming. Christ knows when the right time for him to appear face Saul. Because Christ waiting for Saul and his soldiers to riding on horses, on the way to city for to persecute Christians. When Saul and his soldiers were on the way to city, that how, Christ stoppped Saul from going to that city. Caused Saul converted to become Christian.

He comes IN THE MORNING, as in Mal. 4 and 1 Sam. 23

I did read in Malachi chapter 4. Nothing saying find anywhere in Malachi 4 mentioned, 'morning' in King James Version.

I did read in 1 Samuel chapter 23. I did not find word, 'morning' anywhere in chapter 23. But, I think the correct chapter as you mentioned it is find in the Second Samauel, not First Samuel. I did find in 2 Sam. 23:4. That have do nothing with the timing of second coming. That verse mentioned Christ being called, 'morning'. Remember, Christ have many names in the Bible.

Three appearances at three different times

Your logically about the difference between 3 times of sun on the timing of Christ's coming do not make a sense to me.

Again, Matt. 24:36,42 telling us, no one knows what day and hour when Christ comes, only God, the Father knows.

I remind you, the world have 24 different timing zones, because the earth is globe as ball, as it rotating around the sun, earth have divided into two parts of lights- day and night. At the same time, Christ might come when we are in America during daytime, people in China during nighttime, but, we do not know when Christ will come again.

No way, that you can prove to us Christ shall come at the noon time. Your logically is flaw and make no sense to me.

You AGAIN evaded the fact that the prophecy of Jer. 30 concerns the HOUSES of Judah and Israel. That's BOTH. It's not HISTORICAL for Babylonian captivity of Nebuchanezzar

Why cannot you reading through from Jeremaih chapter 29 to 30? You only focus on Jer. 30:7. That is against the hermeneutic rule - Intepreting in Contextually. Why cannot you read the context from Jeremiah chapter 29 to 30? This is talking about the warning from Jermeiah, the prophet, that the judgement shall fall down upon Israel, and Jerusalem shall be taken over by Babylonian. It proved us, that the history tells us, it already happened, so, Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago.

Judah and Israel (POLITICAL DIVISIONS) are NOT YET under the new covenant

Remind you, Old Testament books often talk about politicals lot, because Hebrews do not want God to rule over them, it called, theocracy. During Moses, time in the wilderness, Hebrews were control under theocracy by God. Hebrews complained, not want God to rule over them, they wanted to own King to rule over them. So, after the book of Judges occured, God allowed Israel to have their own King - Saul. That is called, monorachy. Israel was a one nation during King Saul & David's period. Samuel, the prophet told Samaule, that his kingdom shall be divided, his prophecy comes true about 100 to 200 years later. It was divided into two kingdoms, 2 tribes under Judah -south, 10 tribes under Israel -north(if I am correct, you can correct me if you want to). But the facts of 1 & 2 Chronicles telling us so.

The old covenant was failed, not because of God's fault. Because of Hebrews broke the covenant with God. SO..... God told them, he shall make a new covenant with house of Judah and house of Israel, it speak of calvary. Even, right now, it already fulfilled by Calvary according Mark 14:24, as Christ told them during supper, that He shall make a new testament(covenant) with many speak of His blood on the cross. Christ already make new covenant with Israel through Calvary.

Remember Jews were already returned to Jerusalem after captivity, does not matter to me what tribes they were, they are "Israel", because they were all Jews. During 400 years of silence period from post-ear of Jeremiah, the prophet to birth of Christ, I am sure, many Jews (any tribes) were return to their land - Israel, no question, all of tribes under the house of Judah and house of Israel already return to Israel and Jerusalem by the time Christ born.

Obivously, house of Judah and house of Israel both are already under the new covenant right now because of calvary.

Paul SAID their heart had NOT turned to the Lord, at the time of the writing of 2 Cor. 3. Read it son.

Look at 2 Cor. 3:14 says, "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same VEIL untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which VEIL is DONE AWAY IN CHRIST."

Paul's point talking about, the mystery of Christ already make revealed to them, that he make a new covenant with many.

Stop and think... look to Mark 15:37-39 tell us, when after Christ shout and said, 'it is finished'(John 19:30), then he yield up his soul(died), suddenly the veil in the temple was tear down from top to bottom. It showed that the mystery of Christ was over and fulfilled, now it is for salvation to come, also Christ is the temple, he offered his own blood for Israel and Gentiles this is the new testament or covenent.

I think, what in your mind what Paul told to them of 2 Cor. 3, showing me that Israel already heart hardened against God, so the new covenant for Israel was postponed wait till millennial kingdom.

That is what Premillennial/disp teaches. But not what the Bible saying.

Romans chapter 11 telling us, God removed Jews out of the tree because of their unbelief. But, the remain Jews stay on the same because of their belief. God just grafted Gentiles added to the same tree join with believing Jews together.

Now, Jews and Gentiles are already under the new covenant, these who have faith in Lord Jesus Christ, we are now under the new covenant because of His blood. Understand?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ooops! Double post

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry Brother DeafPosttrib, you are leaving
way to much on your own logic. Why not just
believe what God has clearly there in the
scriptures AS WRIT? God's word is clearly
pretribulation rapture/resurrection all the
way through.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Tell me, what you see that I use logical in what I interpreting verses?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

God's word is clearly 'pretribulation' rapture/resurrection all the way through

Verses please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Ed,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God's word is clearly 'pretribulation' rapture/resurrection all the way through

Verses please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! </font>[/QUOTE]We have been
visiting here for two years and for an
additional year in other venues. The Bible
hasn't added anything in those three years.
You have seen my verses. I use the same
verses you use to shew your amillinnial,
postribulation rapture/resurrection.
Additionally, i use verses you haven't figured
out yet, not that i blame you, they are
pretribulation rapture, premillinnial return,
historical dispensational verses that
don't fit into your logic pattern.

exegesis - esxplanation, critical analysis,
or interpretation of a word, literary passage,
etc. esp. of the Bible

Tell me, what you see that I use logical
in what I interpreting verses?

Sorry, Brother, sir - i never did buy into your
self delusion that your exegesis is spiritual
and my exegesis is logical. IMHO my exegesis
is spiritual and yours is logical.

Remember, the next sound you will hear
is the NOISY pretribulation rapture/resurrection. Maranatha!!!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Deafpostrib,

It's been so long, I thought you might have died and went to be with the Lord.

My POINT in Rom.5 and Eph.2 is Paul refers to a DIVSION of TIME pointing out GROUPS of SAINTS which you totally evaded, as you normally do.

Your problem is simple. You APPLY "historical" statements by Paul which reference "BUT NOW", BACKWARDS. You can't learn the Bible like that son. Rom.2,3,5,6, show there were SAINTS BEFORE THE LAW, UNDER THE LAW, and UNDER GRACE. That is the point under discussion, which you EVADE. They are "not" the same saints. They are DIVIDED in time by Paul, under dispensational schemes give by him in his epistle.

Your diatribe concerning salvation by works and PERFECTION of your faith by works is foolishness. Paul taught otherwise. You can't reconcile James with Romans, due to the fact that one refers to Gen.15 while the other refers to Gen.22. One refers to the IMPUTATION of righteousness to ISRAEL FOR THE INHERITANCE. (Abraham STANDS for them.) James is written to the 12 tribes of Israel, NOT Gentiles in the body of Christ. You can't learn it due to your distortion of the passages.

You're a trip. You deny salvation by grace through faith without WORKS, then turn around and state that OT saints were justified by faith, while NEGATING what you just said from James. You're DOUBLEMINDED. You haven't rightly divided the word of truth.

We live by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, not our own. (Eph.2:8-9, Gal.2, Rom.3:22-26, Phil.3:6-9)


Quote:

God's plan of salvation have nothing chnage and does not effect on either Old Testament saints or New Testament saints. God's plan of salvation for everyone through Jesus Christ by Calvary.

Unquote.

OT saints were NOT saved by as NT saints. We are justified IMMEDIATELY, while they were not. (Rom.4, Heb.2)

You definitely have a problem in following a conversation.

Let's make this simple. Paul GAVE 7 divisions of believers IN TIME within the book of Romans due to dispensationalism.

Those INNOCENT/ALIVE without the law as ADAM in the garden. (Rom.5,7)

Those before the law as Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc. (Rom.2)

Those under a governmental authority as beginning from Noah. (Rom.13, Gen.9)

Those under the promises. (Rom.9)

Those under the law as Moses through Christ. (Rom.2, 5)

Those under grace as came by Christ. (Rom.6)

Those under the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, as found AFTER we are glorified. (Rom.2, 5, 8)


Finding grace in the OT is not the DISPENSATION of the grace of God revealed to Paul.

Grace in the Old is FOUND by "doing". Grace in the new is RECEIVED by NOT DOING! (Rom.4) Noah and Joseph found grace from someone DUE TO THEIR ACTIONS. YOu don't get grace like that. Son, just because you find the word grace in the OT doesn't EQUATE it with Pauline REVELATION received historically by him.


Watch how you handle the Book after I make a statement. Your going to DENY the testimony of the scriptures DUE to your "belief and doctrinal prejudice". Follow it now, son. You're going to teach HERESY without any scripture, through MENTAL GYMNASTICISM and REASONING, not biblical statement.

This is my statement with yours following.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were no Christians BEFORE Antioch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weren't 3,000 saved during Pentacost Day, Christians?

Weren't the 12 disciples of Christ, Christians?

The same thing, I ask you, weren't 3,000 souls saved during Pentacost Day - saints?

Weren't the 12 disciples of Christ, saints?

I better to define the word 'Christian', what it means. It means, a person who FOLLOW Christ, is Christian.

Many religions claim they are 'Christians', but most of them do NOT follow Christ, they are not true Christian.

A true Christian, who obey and follow Jesus Christ.

Abeaham was a true Christian, because he obeyed and followed Christ.

unguote.

Now I'm going to give you the BIBLE answers to your questions.

No, the 3000 and the 12, were NOT Christians. There were no Christians BEFORE Antioch. (Acts 11) Yes, you've seen the verse before. I quoted it PREVIOUSLY, which you circumvented. They were called NAZARENES in Jerusalem. (Acts 24)

Yes, the 12 disciples were saints, but not saints BEFORE THE LAW. They lived UNDER THE LAW, and found out, they were UNDER GRACE after Paul's salvation! (Acts 10)

Your definition of Christian is not biblical. It is fabricated. Christians SAT under the teaching of Pauline revelation at ANTIOCH!

Abraham was no more a Christian than my dog is. You reasoned that without scriptural prooftext. There are NO CHRISTIANS before Antioch. We are not concerned about what you THINK is a Christian or who he followed. You have no prooftext for that absurdity.

You have a reading problem. The Lord Jesus DID NOT SAY that Abraham followed him personally. He said that Abraham REJOICED to see my day and saw it and was glad.

He speaks of the RESURRECTION of Christ, which he received from God IN A FIGURE concerning his son, Issac. (Heb.11) You can't get the verses.

You have a time with it, don't you?

Of course he was a Gentile through EBER. (See Gen.11) That's a HEBREW.

The Bible says, Abraham is a Hebrew. (Gen.14)

He's PHYSICALLY one of the fathers of the Jews. You really do have a time with it. You can't DIVIDE a prophetical reference from an ACTUAL one.

Well, you have again discussed everthing EXCEPT the subject.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[carlaimpinge]

Deafpostrib,

The Bible says in Matthew 24, that the abomination of desolation will be STANDING in the holy place in Jerusalem. The Lord Jesus REFERRED to Daniel the prophet when making this FUTURE statement of identification, which he CONNECTED to the reading of Daniel the prophet. That concerns the MIDST of the week, when the sacrifices are taken away. (Dan.8,9,11,12) It's all plain and simple, except to someone who has a "distortion and perversion" of doctrine which they would like to share.

The Bible says that SACRIFICES were not stopped at Calvary by Christ. (See Acts 21) The LEADERS OF THE CHURCH AT JERUSALEM (Nazarenes) were STILL OFFERING them! You're wrong son. The Bible AGAIN foils your teaching.

You didn't READ the verse, again. (1 Cor.15:52)

The Bible says, "at the last trump, for the trumpet shall SOUND". The TRUMP is the SOUND coming from the TRUMPET.

The BIBLE does not IDENTIFY a shout as a TRUMPET.

You can't grasp biblical APPEARANCES.

The Bible says that Christ comes in the clouds, and ON A CLOUD (Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Rev.14), NOT A HORSE at that time. He has A CROWN, not many, as found in Rev.19. They are different appearances.

It's NECESSARY for you though son, IF you're going to teach that Christ is giving the doctrinal teaching for the rapture, which PAUL SAID was revealed to him!

There is NO RAPTURE of the dead and living taught by the Lord DURING THE GOSPELS. Chapter and verse? That's a PAULINE teaching. (1 Cor.15-1 Thess.4)

The Bible says, that NNE was baptized by the Holy Spirit UNTIL Acts 2. (John 12, Acts 1, 10) That puts you IN CHRIST. (1 Cor.12)

Of course, he comes with his angels. It doesn't SAY THAT though in the text of 1 Thess.4 which you perverted saying that it was the SAME as Matt.24. YOU SAID they both contained a reference to ANGELS. They didn't. 2 Thess.1 is a reference to his coming AFTER THE TRIBULATION, when his angels come with him! (Matt.16,24)

It's the same ole, same ole, deafpostrib. You MIS
QUOTE, MISTATE, and MISREFERENCE words to teach your belief. I give the verses which correct your falsehood of statement.

The Bible, when speaking of four winds, reference the directions of north, south, east, and west. (Go check the verses.)

Certainly you are not a believer in the Jesus only heresy.

The Bible teaches the IMAGE OF GOD is triune. (Gen.1, 1 Thess.5) Christ Jesus is not the Father, NOR the Holy Spirit. (See Psalm 110, Isaiah 61, 48, etc.) God is TRIUNE, son, DIVIDED into three personalities. ONE IS NOT THE OTHER.

Christ was the IMAGE of the invisible God. (Col.1) No man hath seen God at any time. (John 1) They didn't SEE the Father, but they saw Christ, HIS IMAGE.

You need to study the Bible son.

Deafpostrib, you SHOULD KNOW which one did IF you're going to TEACH the verse was fulfilled HISTORICALLY, while trying to NEGATE a verse, which references the DAY OF THE LORD! Good grief son.

Grasshopper can agree with you, while I'll take the PROPHETS which AGREE with me. The day of the Lord is under discussion in Amos 8, which is given by AMOS THE PROPHET, concerning the INVASION of Jerusalem. (Zech.14)

The Bible teaches what YOU JUST THREW AWAY as being historical with NO PROPHETIC APPPLICATION from a prophet!

Quote:
These do mot matter to me about the timing of the Day of the Lord.

Bible does not teaching that the day of the Lord being stretching into either 3 1/2 years or 7 years include 1,000 years. Bible teaches us, the day of the Lord shall not come till the cosmic disturbance must be occured first - Matt 24:29, Rev. 6:12-15. Day of the Lord means on that day the Lord Jesus Christ shall come to earth for to judge the world.

Unquote.

Wrong son. The day of the Lord is IDENTIFIED by the sun going down and those hollering PEACE! (Amos 8, Micah 3, 1 Thess.5) The great and terrible day of the Lord is KNOWN by the STARS falling! (Rev.6)

Saul's salvation and Christ's appearance MOST CERTAINLY has to do with his gathering of the body. Paul is our pattern. (1 Tim.1)

Good grief son, the SUN comes UP in the morning, as ALSO found in 2 Sam.23 Sorry about the misreference in 1 Sam.

Hey, I can't help it IF you can't UNDERSTAND the Bible. Three times of SALVATION are mentioned by David (Psalm 55, which are morning, evening, and noon.

I'm going by biblical statement, not logic. Paul associates the times and seasons of the gathering (1 Thess.4) with the coming of the day of the Lord. (1 Thess.5) It comes at NOON, which you THROW OUT. How can you understand the Bible WHEN you discard it?

Son, I don't have to prove it to anyone. I have to PREACH it, and listen to others NEGATE the verses which teach it, by DENYING they mean what they say.

I have read Jer.29-30, and you keep EVADING the fact that Jer.30 refers to BOTH the houses of Israel, NOT JUST JUDAH, who was taken captive by the Babylonians. It's NOT historical.

Deafpostrib, your infidelity is rancid. The heart of ISRAEL has not yet turned to the Lord in PAUL'S DAY. (2 Cor.3) READ VERSES 15-16, not just 14. Judah and Israel (political divsions) are not under the new covenant, FOR THEY ALL DON'T KNOW HIM! (Heb.10) Read the text son.

Quote:

I think, what in your mind what Paul told to them of 2 Cor. 3, showing me that Israel already heart hardened against God, so the new covenant for Israel was postponed wait till millennial kingdom.

That is what Premillennial/disp teaches. But not what the Bible saying.

Unquote.

That's EXACTLY what the Bible says. Your just as blind as they are to the scriptures.

The Bible STATED that their heart had not yet turned to the Lord IN PAUL'S DAY. The wrath is ON THEM to the uttermost. (1 Thess.2) They are not saved. (Rom.10) They WILL BE. (Rom.11)

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Later today or tomorrow, I will reply back to you with verses what you saying. Lot of things as what your interpreting does not make sense and no purpose. Same as what you saying to me recently. Your view and my view both are not same base on God's Word about the timing of rapture. But, the basic thing both you and I agree Jesus is coming again, and we all shall be gathering together to meet Christ and be with him forever and ever. That what we are looking forward for.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

GOOD EVENING!!!!

I'm back.

There is so much of things to reply back to you, as what you said to me several weeks ago.

I don't feel like to make post reply back to you. Because I do not like your attitude. Forgive me. You should speak like as gentlemen, be friendly while as you dicuss or debate with anyone.

I did reading at your own discussion forum several times. Your forum is not a popular, because many people seem not comfort to discuss with you because of your attitude. I have no desire to join at your discussion forum, because of your attitude. Forgive me.

You say to me, that I am not a believer in the Jesus only hersesy. You criticize me on my beliefs.

Many of members at baptistboard in this discussion forum know that I am a truly believer, because I talked lot on Jesus Christ. No excuse for you to know me better. You already notice me for 2 or 3 years at other forums. I always show you with ton of verses from the Bible, obivously, I love to study the Bible. Of course, I believe in Jesus Christ same as you does.

I am going to reply to you as what you replied back to me on the things what you said. I am going to reply back to you with positives and friendly.

You discussed about the law and the grace. I do not agree with Dispensationalism doctrine.

The plan of salvation never change since from the beginning(O.T.) to today, and will always remain the same till the end of the age.

Grace was already right there in the Old Testament times long time ago before Pentacost Day. In Genesis 6:8 says, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

Grace was already right there thousands years before Pentacost Day.

I suggest you to looking in STRONG's Concordance for word, 'grace' in the Old Testament, there are so plenty word of 'grace' find in the O.T.

No excuse for dispensationalists able to looking at 'grace' in STRONG's Concordance.

By the way, Apostle Paul quoted of Romans 1:17 "..as it is written, the just shall live by faith." from Habakkuk 2:4. Obivously, throughout the Old Testament period, all saints were saved by through their faith as they were walked by the faith just same as we are live by the faith.

Hebrews chapter 11 mentioned so clear, all O.T. saints were saved by their faith with action. They were not saved by obeying the laws.

Having laws show us, it is like as mirror shows us that we are sinner. Laws do not bring them into heaven. Abraham was not saved by obeying the laws, but he believed in God, it already counted him into righteousness - Romans 4:3-5 according Gen. 15:6. Same as believe in Jesus Christ through our faith.

Faith means, believing and walk without sight. - 2 Cor. 5:7

You say:

No, the 3000 and the 12, were not Christians. There were no Christians before Antoch (Acts 11)...They were called Nazarenes' in Jerusalems (Acts 24)

You takes Acts 24:5 out of its context - verse 1 to 9, what the whole passage talking about. Acts 24:1-9 telling us, Paul was taken to face the high priest and the elders. Tertullus was the person who called Paul, "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes." - vs. 5. He was angry at Paul for spreaded gospel to the Jews. He thinks Paul changed Jews Judasism into Christians, to destroy Judasism's tradition and laws. Acts 24:5 have do nothing with 3,000 souls and the 12 disciples of Christ. Apostle Paul was being labelled by Tertullas' own mouth.

Yes, all 3,000 souls(people) and the 12 disciples were Christians, because they already followed Jesus Christ.

Didn't you know that we are the disciples of Christ? Christ tells us, we should follow Christ - Luke 14:26-27. There is no difference between 'disciple' & 'Christian', both are same.

Abraham was a truly disciple, because he followed and obeyed God. Same as what Moses does.

The truly define of 'Church' means, "called out".

Abraham was called out by God, for leave out of his country - Ur, and followed God in Genesis chapter 12.

Yes, Abraham was called 'Hebrews' in Genesis chapter 14. Actually, Abraham was not a Jew in the first place before called by God. Abraham was born as Gentile 70 years long before God called him. The reason why he was called, 'Hebrews', because when he was in Egypt, Egytians noticed him, he was much different from them, that they noticed him worshipped the only one God, not worshipped the idols, but worshipped God as invisibly spirit. Egypt was in heavily idolatory. Egyptians were worshipped with their own idols. Abraham was the only one man in Egypt, that he does not have an idol, he worshipped his God in spirit. That why, they called him, "Hebrews". Same as common sense, during Early Church time in year around 30's A.D. the people in Antioch noticed the group was much different from them, because they often hear the gospel of "Jesus Christ" from the group, that why they called group, "Christians".

I better stop for now, because it is now 1:40 a.m. (the time of this forum is about 15 minutes slower). I need go rest get ready for Church later Sunday morning. Later tonight, I will continue more discuss to reply back to you.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!