The rapture

[robycop3]

So Augustus had the entire inhabited earth counted in his census.

Augie wasn't Jesus. Big difference in the meaning & power of their words.

 

[robycop3]

That is circular reasoning. It's not a question of believing the Scriptures. It's understanding the author's intended meaning. Not all Scriptures can be read the same way - history, poetry, and prophecy are each understood differently.

You're still trying to guess what Paul meant, when it's very plain what he meant.
If I say "I have a fast red car", does that mean I have a slow green RV?

 

[robycop3]

Your proof is just so much confirmation bias.

Thank you for the history regarding why the Roman army left. That really makes sense. When you say you are good at history, you ain't kidding.

I gave you the definitions of oikumene and kosmos, along with their usage in the Bible. I stand by my previous argument.

I share your view of Don Preston, and all Full Preterism promoters. However, I have the greatest respect for Ken Gentry, Gary DeMar, R.C. Sproul, and other Partial Preterism teachers and authors. I believe we've already discussed the rest of the points you made.

Once again, Jesus Himself proved partial preterism false before it was even invented. Once again, if the great trib has already occurred, Jesus is 'WAY-overdue! You just simply CANNOT get by that FACT.

And Rev. 3:10 makes it plain that the great trib will hit the WHOLE WORLD.
Can you tell us the names of the beast/antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet?

Can you tell us when the 2nd Babylon was destroyed for ever, be it Rome or NYC?

Can you tell us when Israel became a land of unwalled villages, that is, disarmed?

Can you tell us when the 2 special witnesses preached to the world, were killed, their bodies left in a street, & resurrected 3 days later?

Can you tell us when all fresh water turned to blood? Or when all life died in the sea?

If not, they haven't yet happened, have they?

Partial preterism is as false as full preterism is.

 

[Revmitchell]

Of all of the false doctrines bandied about in christiandom preterism and all its spin offs are the weakest of them all.

 

[robycop3]

Not at all. Like so many words, oikumene has more than just one possible meaning. This was used to mean the Roman Empire throughout the NT.

...Except where it WASN'T...

It's the word used in Rev. 3:10. And no great trib came upon the whole Roman empire. It fell, piece by piece, over a period of time.

Here, it meant the whole world, simple as that. Otherwise, had it already happened, people could simply have gone into what's now France or Germany to have escaped it.

 

[robycop3]

Of all of the false doctrines bandied about in christiandom preterism and all its spin offs are the weakest of them all.

I agree. I'm carrying on this dialogue with Lodic to try to convince him of that, and also to show newer Christians how false this doctrine is. A 10th-grade world history book SHOULD be sufficient, but some people are so in thrall to that false doctrine that they just can't recognize the truth unless the HOLY SPIRIT intervenes.

 

[kyredneck]

The rapture will occur before the great trib begins

HRRRUMMMPPP!!! More Dispy fiction. The 'great trib' is a long done deal.

 

[robycop3]

HRRRUMMMPPP!!! More Dispy fiction. The 'great trib' is a long done deal.

NUPE! It's nowhere in history.

And "this generation" will be the one who sees "these things" begin. It'll see'em ALL.

BTW, I'm no dispy.

Now, can YOU show us from history when those events occurred, if you insist they have? And can you explain why Jesus hasn't returned yet? Remember, He said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib.

 

[Lodic]

You're still trying to guess what Paul meant, when it's very plain what he meant.
If I say "I have a fast red car", does that mean I have a slow green RV?

Actually, I suggest that it's you "futurists" who are guessing at what Paul (and Jesus) meant.

 

[Lodic]

Once again, Jesus Himself proved partial preterism false before it was even invented. Once again, if the great trib has already occurred, Jesus is 'WAY-overdue! You just simply CANNOT get by that FACT.

And Rev. 3:10 makes it plain that the great trib will hit the WHOLE WORLD.
Can you tell us the names of the beast/antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet?

Can you tell us when the 2nd Babylon was destroyed for ever, be it Rome or NYC?

Can you tell us when Israel became a land of unwalled villages, that is, disarmed?

Can you tell us when the 2 special witnesses preached to the world, were killed, their bodies left in a street, & resurrected 3 days later?

Can you tell us when all fresh water turned to blood? Or when all life died in the sea?

If not, they haven't yet happened, have they?

Partial preterism is as false as full preterism is.

Jesus proves the truth of partial preterism. You just cannot accept the fact that the great tribulation was a 1st century event limited to Israel, not a future fantasy that will impact the entire world.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promised the church in Philadelphia that He would keep THEM from "the hour of testing, that hour which IS ABOUT TO COME upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth". Again, "oikumene" is used, not "kosmos". Odd that you would normally insist that we take Jesus at His word, yet you want to change "about to come" to mean "way off in the future". You are not being consistent. As I've told you before, the Beast is Rome (Nero), and the False Prophet is Apostate Israel.

Revelation 18 clearly shows that "Babylon" refers to Jerusalem. Look at Revelation 11:8, which describes the Two Witnesses, whose bodies lie in the street of "the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified". Speaking of the two witnesses of chapter 11, they refer to the Law and the Prophets.

All of the 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls judgements were fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem. This is all symbolic language (which you will argue with, of course).

 

[Lodic]

...Except where it WASN'T...

It's the word used in Rev. 3:10. And no great trib came upon the whole Roman empire. It fell, piece by piece, over a period of time.

Here, it meant the whole world, simple as that. Otherwise, had it already happened, people could simply have gone into what's now France or Germany to have escaped it.

If the whole world was in view, Jesus, Paul, and John would have used the word "kosmos". While we understand "kosmos" to mean the universe, that was certainly a word they used to mean the entire planet. Since Nero and the Roman Empire were the culprits behind the Great Tribulation, it wouldn't make sense to say the Great Tribulation came upon the whole empire. Rather, they brought it to Israel, which was part of their empire.

 

[Lodic]

I agree. I'm carrying on this dialogue with Lodic to try to convince him of that, and also to show newer Christians how false this doctrine is. A 10th-grade world history book SHOULD be sufficient, but some people are so in thrall to that false doctrine that they just can't recognize the truth unless the HOLY SPIRIT intervenes.

Actually, the only reason that I continue this tiring old argument with you is to show other Christians the validity of the Preterist view, and the weaknesses of the "rapture / futurist" view. They need to learn not what to think, but how to think through these doctrines. If a person rejects Preterism after giving it an honest look, that's fair enough. If they reject it simply because others dismiss it as false or even heretical without investigating it, they are doing themselves a disservice. To honestly seek the truth, they must learn to apply critical thinking. Don't just read at the surface level or go off what you've always been taught. If you allow Him, the Holy Spirit will reveal things to you that you've never even considered.

 

[robycop3]

Actually, I suggest that it's you "futurists" who are guessing at what Paul (and Jesus) meant.

The Scriptures I posted are plain as the statement "Joe Biden is now US President." Your disbelief of them is astounding!

 

[Lodic]

The Scriptures I posted are plain as the statement "Joe Biden is now US President." Your disbelief of them is astounding!

I'm not surprised at your failure to see any other possible interpretation of those Scriptures. Just disappointed that such a really smart guy like you won't look past his biased views on eschatological.

 

[xlsdraw]

I'm not surprised at your failure to see any other possible interpretation of those Scriptures. Just disappointed that such a really smart guy like you won't look past his biased views on eschatological.

Are you a Replacement Theologist?

 

[robycop3]

Jesus proves the truth of partial preterism. You just cannot accept the fact that the great tribulation was a 1st century event limited to Israel, not a future fantasy that will impact the entire world.

OF COURSE I don't accept it cuz it's NOT a fact.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promised the church in Philadelphia that He would keep THEM from "the hour of testing, that hour which IS ABOUT TO COME upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth". Again, "oikumene" is used, not "kosmos".

And that word means "the whole inhabited earth". "Kosmos" means the universe.

Odd that you would normally insist that we take Jesus at His word, yet you want to change "about to come" to mean "way off in the future". You are not being consistent.

No matter whatcha say, the TRUTH is, that time has NOT yet come. I have repeatedly asked prets to prove that it has, & their answers have been everything from "It has cuz it has" to "Duh-h-h..." to silence.

As I've told you before, the Beast is Rome (Nero), and the False Prophet is Apostate Israel.

And I've **PROVEN** that notion is FALSE. Daniel, Paul, and JESUS all said he will be a MAN. I proved that Nero was NOT the beast, as he failed to meet many Scriptural criteria for the beast, And Scripture says that both those MEN will be cast into the LOF. Whoever taught you that garbage above musta been smoking some pretty strong stuff.

Revelation 18 clearly shows that "Babylon" refers to Jerusalem.

[/B][/I]MMRRPP! WRONG![/I][/B]
How can the bodies lie in the street when Babylon shall be found no more? And a great earthquake shall split J into 3 parts. Hard to do if it's gone!

Look at Revelation 11:8, which describes the Two Witnesses, whose bodies lie in the street of "the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified". Speaking of the two witnesses of chapter 11, they refer to the Law and the Prophets.

MMRRPP! WRONG AGAIN!
They'll be 2 MEN. How could the law be slain & lie in a street??????

All of the 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls judgements were fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem. This is all symbolic language (which you will argue with, of course).

OF COURSE I'll argue, cuz it's FALSE. They're about coming events. You CANNOT show otherwise. Just SAYING it doesn't make something false become true!

 

[robycop3]

Actually, the only reason that I continue this tiring old argument with you is to show other Christians the validity of the Preterist view, and the weaknesses of the "rapture / futurist" view. They need to learn not what to think, but how to think through these doctrines. If a person rejects Preterism after giving it an honest look, that's fair enough. If they reject it simply because others dismiss it as false or even heretical without investigating it, they are doing themselves a disservice. To honestly seek the truth, they must learn to apply critical thinking. Don't just read at the surface level or go off what you've always been taught. If you allow Him, the Holy Spirit will reveal things to you that you've never even considered.

All other readers are free, of course, to read what we've each presented. I have presented Scripture & history, with the Scripture being believed literally as possible, while YOU have presented conjecture & guesswork, along with a heapin' helpin' of material from quacks, using the old pret non-valid practice of redicing certain Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic' status with no valid reason to do so. Just doing it to try to lend credence to pret pronouncements is NOT a valid reason!

I have repeatedly asked you for historical proof that the events prets SAY have already happened, HAVE already happened, & not one quark of such proof has been presented. This is over a 20-year period, & the only answers I've received has been the same ole garbage you've repeated here.

 

[robycop3]

I'm not surprised at your failure to see any other possible interpretation of those Scriptures. Just disappointed that such a really smart guy like you won't look past his biased views on eschatological.

Why look past the **TRUTH **?????????????????????????????

 

[Lodic]

Are you a Replacement Theologist?

What do you mean by "Replacement Theology"?

 

[Lodic]

Why look past the **TRUTH **?????????????????????????????

I'm not sure. Why do you?