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TaterTot
Guest
the "rapture" as most people understand it will be a "secret" one - then all the 666 stuff. That system makes a third coming for Christ, and that just isnt biblical.
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TaterTot
Guest
Nor do I!
Whether the non-believers will hear the "shout", and/or the "trump", is debatable, but when people start disappearing all over the earth, IT SURE AIN'T GONNA BE A SECRET!
MARANATHA!!!!! </font>[/QUOTE]You contradict yourself...the people disappearing IS the secret calling away you dont believe in.
The notion of Christians going up into thin air before the End Times get truly unpleasant apparently started with the writings of Nelson Darby in the 1830's.
Christians not influenced by Darby and his successors like Scofield, don't believe in, or more likely never even heard of the Secret Rapture.
Christians not influenced by Darby and his successors like Scofield, don't believe in, or more likely never even heard of the Secret Rapture.
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Can anyone show me a Pre-1900 Baptist that taught or endorsed this whole "Left Behind" type of rapture?
The timing is irrelevant. If the "truth" wasn't written or documented until 1830 (and I doubt that very much) does that make it incorrect? The jews STILL do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and that has been well over 2000 years. Are they correct because they have held on to this belief for such a long period of time?
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
So I am guesing then you don't have an answer to my question?
That is interesting that timing is irrelevant. So I guess God just chose to keep the truth of His word hidden until a more modern period.
That is interesting that timing is irrelevant. So I guess God just chose to keep the truth of His word hidden until a more modern period.
I have a vintage book written by Rev. Birdwell of the Pillar of Fire Church (pentacostal) that was copywrited 1915. He discusses the order of events concerning the 2nd coming. He too quotes 1st Thess.4:16-18. He emphasises the dead rising first. I find it interesting that his writings, altho written in 1915 are exactly what I have been taught in my baptist church, and that at the time of his writings he considered the world at that time to be in crisis. Cheryl
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TaterTot
Guest
If its not taught in the Bible, and it wasnt understood in the early church, then why is it even an issue? Maybe because Darby and Scofield made it one. 
No I don't have an answer to your question, as to me it is irrelevent, and one I do not wish to do research on.
So who then is keeping the "truth hidden" from the jews? Who says it had to be God that kept the truth hidden?
2 Thessalonians 2:1,2 "Now we beseech you, brethern, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter AS FROM US, as though the day of Christ had come."
Who was it, or rather, the spirit behind that forged letter ("as from us") to the church?
It's not taught in the Bible? Does your Bible have 1 Thessalonians in it? BTW, I never read Darby and Scofield's work, just my Bible.Originally posted by TaterTot:
If its not taught in the Bible, and it wasnt understood in the early church, then why is it even an issue? Maybe because Darby and Scofield made it one.
Debby in Philly
Active Member
They're all theories. Not one of 'em are spelled out in the Bible like a travel itinerary, else there would not be the debate.
All we KNOW is that He died for us sinners, and all need to hear the gospel and come to Him. And that's the most important thing.
Want intellectual debate? Fine. But just remember that's what it is.
All we KNOW is that He died for us sinners, and all need to hear the gospel and come to Him. And that's the most important thing.
Want intellectual debate? Fine. But just remember that's what it is.
But it is taught in the bible isn't it? What do you do with 1 Thess 4? Verse 16,17, and 18? Paul ended with "Comfort one another with these words."
It doesn't have to be an issue. I know many fear that trying to "scare people into salvation" is not the way to witness effectively. But that doesn't take away from the fact that "something" is going to happen.
It doesn't have to be an issue. I know many fear that trying to "scare people into salvation" is not the way to witness effectively. But that doesn't take away from the fact that "something" is going to happen.
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TexasSky
Guest
I believe in a rapture.
I have a question though -
Do you believe that Christians will escape the tribulation because the rapture comes first?
Or do you believe that Christians will escape the tribulation by being "set aside" as the Jews were during the plagues of Pharoah and THEN raptured?
(Heard some evangalist make a case for this a few years ago, and have been curious about others opinions ever since. )
I have a question though -
Do you believe that Christians will escape the tribulation because the rapture comes first?
Or do you believe that Christians will escape the tribulation by being "set aside" as the Jews were during the plagues of Pharoah and THEN raptured?
(Heard some evangalist make a case for this a few years ago, and have been curious about others opinions ever since. )
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
1 Thess teaches that Jesus is returning for His children, and that is very comforting for all of us!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
It's not taught in the Bible? Does your Bible have 1 Thessalonians in it? BTW, I never read Darby and Scofield's work, just my Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Webdog -- Preach it!Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TaterTot:
If its not taught in the Bible, and it wasnt understood in the early church, then why is it even an issue? Maybe because Darby and Scofield made it one.
Yep, i teach all my pretribulation rapture/resurrection doctrine
from documents written prior to 100AD. Try it someday, it is called
the New Testament
TexasSky: "Do you believe that Christians will escape the
tribulation because the rapture comes first?"
Here is what i believe about this matter:
The following is an orignial essay by Ed:
-----------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed
The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble
1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus
4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:
The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
C
Copper
Guest
Amen.
I find it amusing that people are looking right at the words and saying, "Uh, Nope. It says it but, that's not what it means." How much plainer is it than this:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4:16-18
Of course, if you don't believe the Bible, then perhaps this might seem a bit over the top. Just like the idea of someone dying for someone else would seem, a bit out there.
But, Jesus did die for us and He IS coming back for us ... and soon.
Blessings,
Copper
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I have no idea why people on this Baptist Board,
none of whom believe in a 'secret rapture' want
to talk about a 'secret rapture'.
Come on, there is so much noise of
Shouts of Archangels and trumpet sounds --
there is enough noise to WAKE THE DEAD
I don't see a 'secret rapture'. Nobody
sees a 'secret rapture'. Why discuss a
matter which NOBODY here will admit they
teach
none of whom believe in a 'secret rapture' want
to talk about a 'secret rapture'.
Come on, there is so much noise of
Shouts of Archangels and trumpet sounds --
there is enough noise to WAKE THE DEAD
I don't see a 'secret rapture'. Nobody
sees a 'secret rapture'. Why discuss a
matter which NOBODY here will admit they
teach
T
TexasSky
Guest
I think I can figure out where the "secret rapture" idea comes from. The verses that say Christ will come like a thief in the night, and describe how a man and wife will be asleep in bed, and one will be taken and one will be left behind.
For years Christian music made that sound like "the great mysterious vanishing of millions of Christians." (Remember: "I wish we'd all be ready"? "Man and wife asleep in bed, she hears and noise and turns her head, he's gone, I wish we'd all be ready. Two men coming up a hill, one is taken, one left standing still, I wish we'd all be ready." )
That said, I don't think God is shy.
For years Christian music made that sound like "the great mysterious vanishing of millions of Christians." (Remember: "I wish we'd all be ready"? "Man and wife asleep in bed, she hears and noise and turns her head, he's gone, I wish we'd all be ready. Two men coming up a hill, one is taken, one left standing still, I wish we'd all be ready." )
That said, I don't think God is shy.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother PastorSBC1303 -- Preach it!
IMHO the rapture/resurreciton
will happen before 90% of the population
of the earth is destroyed by the unmitigated
Wrath of God
Revelation 14:9-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the third Angel followed them, saying with a lowd voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receiue his marke in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, which is powred out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:
servant-96
New Member
Of course there is a rapture of the church. That is not a theory, it is real. Enoch is a picture of the rapture(Gen.5:24; Heb.11:5), which is a type of the church taken out before the flood(tribulation). BTW, God always works by progression. Remember, He told Daniel to close the book because the time is not yet. Later, He told John to open the book because the time is at hand. The truth has always been there, but God opens our understanding as we get closer to the event. The next thing to happen is the rapture of the church. There is nothing to prevent that event from happening today. There is also a rapture of the two witnesses and the tribulation saints(Rev. 7:13,14; 11:12; 2Thess. 2:1).