The rapture

For His Name, I don't believe you have come to the Truth. It seems to me like you are interpreting the Scriptures esoterically, instead of exegeting the Scriptures. If you've read my other posts, I'd never claim to be the Final Authority on these matters, and I respect your views, but simply disagree. I believe that the Rapture is a reality that Christians ought to look forward to in comfort! 1 Thess 4:18. I believe that we will be "delivered from the wrath to come" 1 Thess 1:10, the Judgments poured out during the last half of the Tribulation Period. (This doesn't mean I hold to the Mid-Trib Rapture Theory ).
Sincerely, Kevin

 

The Day of the Lord, the Second Coming and the Rapture

The Day of the Lord as presented in Scripture presents a large problem to both dispensationalists and postmillennial preterists. The dispensationalist divides the Day of the Lord into two parts, in order to account for the invisible rapture of the church theory. At some points the day of the Lord is meant to be Christ coming to rapture his saints out of harms way prior to the tribulation, and at other times it means the final day of the Lord, at the end of all time. Depending on just which day of the Lord one is talking about is dependent on one’s eschatological presuppositions. In the two-phase, dispensational second coming, the secret rapture is proposed in order to accommodate the immanency necessity, and then after a literal 7-year tribulation, Christ comes again in victory.

No where does the New Testament teach a second and a third coming of Christ. This also present another problem: if we are going to interpret literally, as the dispensationalist says we must, then 7 years to the day after the church mysteriously disappears, Christ must return. It cannot be 6 ½ years, or 7.1 years, or 7 years and 1 hour, but it must literally be 7 years. Thus, it renders Jesus words meaningless when he said, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father”, Mark 13:31,32 (ASV). If dispensationalism were true, you could set the world clock to the very second of Christ’s return; exactly 7 years to the millisecond after the rapture.

The postmillennial preterist also runs into trouble with the day of the Lord. If the Second Coming, occurred in A.D. 70, it was just as invisible as in the rapture theory. This also divides up the Second coming into two parts. This also does damage to the words of Christ to the high priest in Mark 14:62 “And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven", (ASV). If there is any invisible return of Christ, his word is nullified.

Hoekema states, “There is, however, no sound Scriptural basis for the position that the Second Coming of Christ must be divided into these two phases.” Among reasons Hoekema gives is that (1) it cannot be derived from the New Testament words for the Second Coming; (2) New Testament passages that describe the great tribulation do not indicate that the church will be removed from the earth prior to the tribulation beginning; (3) the most famous New Testament passages which teach the “rapture” do not teach it pretribulationally; (4) Christ’s Second Coming involves both a coming with his people as well as for his people; and (5) no argument for a two-stage Second Coming can be argued from the teaching that the great tribulation will be an outpouring of God’s wrath on the world.

Hoekema agrees that the church will not be the subject of the wrath of God, but nowhere in Scripture does it say that the church will be free from the wrath of evil men. Many in the church have been given a false hope that they will not suffer any tribulation, either from God or from man, due to the pre-trib rapture theory.

In Scripture, the Day of the Lord is clearly one event only. It may be more than a literal 24-hour day, or it may be less, but it is clearly only one eschatological occurrence. According to the Scriptures, the Day of the Lord is that day of judgment (Matt. 7:22; John 12:48 ) ; the day of resurrection (John 6:39,40 ; 44; 54; 22:24; ) to be accompanied by celestial signs (Acts 2:20 ) ; a time when it is good to be found blameless (I Cor. 1:8 ) ; a day of destruction and salvation (I Cor. 5:5 ) ; a day of full understanding (II Cor. 1:14) ; it comes like a thief in the night (I Thess. 5:2) ; it is a day of mercy (II Tim. 1:18 ) and rewards (II Tim. 4:8 ).

It is also the day of the last trumpet when the elect are gathered (Matt. 24:3;31) ; the dead are raised (I Cor. 15:52); the Lord descends with a shout (I Thess. 4:6) ; the mystery is accomplished (Rev. 10:7) ; and the eternal state is brought in (Rev. 11:15). Clearly, the rapture, Second Coming and Day of the Lord all occur at the same time, as Christ said, “No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day”, John 6:44 (ASV).

 

Wow, I think I might be agreeing with him. It's such a new concept I have to take a moment........ Keep in mind, I said MIGHT!

 

I just read a book by Philip Yancey, The Bible Jesus Read. Talking about the OT. One of the chapters was called the Prophets Speak Back. He made the point that the scribes, who studied for almost all of their life missed the point about what the OT had to say about the comong Christ. I think today, no matter what side we take. We may not have it figured out after all.

To respond to one post. I do take it to be a literal 7 years of tribulation. Daniel gives this to us very plainly. I do believe that at exactly the end of the 7 years Christ will set up his earthly kingdom, or 1000 reign as RV 20 speaks of.

I do think that this is a very important issue that a Christian should have a stand on. I also think this is a issue that no matter what we just don't really know how it will happen.

 

I stand corrected on my reference to Matt 24:39-42 pertaining to a "rapture." I apologize!

The lack of that passage for support in no way diminishes the belief and hope that I have that believers will be spared the "wrath of God," pre-trib style! But if the tribulation should begin today and I discover that I am wrong, it would not deminish my faith that God will see me through whatever I must face.

Some "accusers of the bretheren" may say:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. The doctrine of a secret rapture is very recent--early 1800s.
2. This doctrine has OCCULTIC origins.
3. Those who believe in a secret rapture are like KJVOs because the pastor told them so.
4. Most of those who believe in pretrib have not seriously studied postrib.
5. There are a lot of pretribs who are now postribs, but not a lot of postribs who are now pretribs.
6. This recent doctrine is purely "escapist" fare.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of these accusations can be substantiated and are mere rhetoric from a zealously opinionated point of view. If my view of the "end times" is wrong and I must suffer for Christ through the tribulation, then let the trials begin . . . I am not an "escapist!"

 

The phrase "the day of the Lord" in the NT is used of a time when Christ will come to judge the earth. There is a separate and distinct time in the NT called "the day of Christ" in which Jesus will come to take away his saints and reward them. There is a clear distinction in the NT as to how these phrases are used. It is also clear that these are distinct days which occur at different times with the day of Christ preceding the day of the Lord(cf. II. Thess 2:1-4). Look up these phrases in your concordance and read the references. Notice the difference.

 

RevKevin .. thank you for responding to my post! The only way for me to interpet the scripture is to go back to the original language to discover the meaning of the words. I try to determine (the best I can) the subject and use the language dictionaries to determine the meanings. Clouds in the original language means "a group or multitude" .. no where does it refer to white fluffy things.

We could probably discuss the Rapture for 25 pages. The bottom line is we can all agree on the second coming .. and I for one hope and believe it will be in my life time. I do not believe I will be "raptured" away.

Wellsjs .. you have some great points in your post without really saying why you believe the way you do. Please do not base your opinions on here say .. you said you have no docutmentation .. keep searching. You will come to the truth.

 

FHN,

You said I said I have no documentation. If you will look on page one of this thread you will find that the reason I believe in the pre-trib rapture is 1 Thes 4:17 and Rev 3:10.

God bless!

[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

Wells ... sorry .. I feel so strongly about this subject sometimes I get carried away. I saw your first post and then my mind "blanked" out. Ha!

 

Dear Wellsjs:

If I would interpret Matthew 24 correctly, I'd rather be LEFT BEHIND!

First of all, Matthew 24 doesn't talk about no rapture. Second, pretribs who cite Matthew 24 do not divide the Word of God correctly.

Why, because they just jump to verse 40 which says, "...Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left."

However, you pretribs must remember that there is a verse 38 which precedes it! Verse 38 says, "For in the days before the Flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the Ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood CAME AND TOOK THEM ALL AWAY. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

So you see, THOSE WHO WILL BE TAKEN AWAY, if you connect the dots, connecting verses 38 and 40 together, means those who will perish!

So, I'D RATHER NOT BE TAKEN AWAY (perish), but I'D RATHER BE LEFT BEHIND!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
Robert, et al,

As for another's comment about meeting in the air and immediately returning with Christ, how do you explain:

and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. (Mat 24:39-42 NIV)

How clearer can it get that there will be many "left behind" when the Lord comes? This verse goes hand-in-hand with the 1 Thes. passage, and distinguishes between the rapture and the "second coming" when Christ returns with all the raptured saints.

Eschatology is an opinionated discipline at best. Can we debate without belittling, Robert?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Good post Robert,

I have never noticed that before, but now that you pointed it out and I looked it up for myself, I know you are right.

I would like to add to your observations by saying that if you go up even a few verses earlier, you will find out that Jesus and his disciples (if you take a literal reading of this passage and don't try to allegorize) believed that all of these things would happen during their own lifetimes. Take a look at Matthew 24:26-34. Especially focus on verse 34 which says:

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened"

I added vv. 26-33 because many pre tribbers will take this verse out of context and try to say that he is referring to the asscension or something else...but if you read the entire passage in context, you will see very clearly that he is talking about the second coming events.

Joseph

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JBotwinick:
I would like to add to your observations by saying that if you go up even a few verses earlier, you will find out that Jesus and his disciples (if you take a literal reading of this passage and don't try to allegorize) believed that all of these things would happen during their own lifetimes. Take a look at Matthew 24:26-34. Especially focus on verse 34 which says:

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joseph:

Jesus never believed that this would happen in his "lifetime". Jesus also said two verses later, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Matt 24:36).

If Jesus chose not to know the timing of His 2nd coming, He certainly didn't expect it to occur while He was still in the First Coming!

The term generation does not mean in context a literal 40 year generation. Rather the Gk. word is genea which means race, family, generation. In context it means the evil age lived in which lasts until the 2nd Coming, when Christ will make all things new.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Matt 12:45 Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This evil generation is also called the last hour, which is also the entire time from the 1st Coming until the 2nd.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be overly concerned with the time indicators of prophecy; that is what has caused modernists and preterists to stumble. Many OT prohecies are spoken of in the present and past tense, although they are interpreted to be future. 1 day with God is as 1000 years.

 

For_His_Name,

You said, "The Bible says .. woe to those that teach my people to fly away"

I can't find that or anything close to that in several translations. Would you be so kind as to reference it. Thanks.

 

In support of us "pre-trib/rapture believers," let me post John MacArthurs's comments on 1 Thes 4:17 for a full shark attack!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>After the dead come forth, their spirits, already with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23), now being joined to resurrected new bodies (1 Cor. 15:35–50), the living Christians will be raptured, lit. snatched away (cf. John 10:28; Acts 8:39). This passage, along with John 14:1–3 and 1 Cor. 15:51,52, form the biblical basis for “the Rapture” of the church. The time of the Rapture cannot be conclusively determined from this passage alone. However, when other texts such as Rev. 3:10 and John 14:3 are consulted and compared to the texts about Christ’s coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34–50; 24:29–44; Rev. 19:11–21) at the end of a 7 year tribulation, it has to be noted that there is a clear difference between the character of the “Rapture” in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts feature judgment. So then, it is best to understand that the Rapture occurs at a time different from the coming of Christ in judgment. Thus, the Rapture has been described as pretribulational (before the wrath of God unfolded in the judgments of Rev. 6–19). This event includes complete transformation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51,52; Phil 3:20,21) and union with the Lord Jesus Christ that never ends. -- John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible, (Dallas: Word Publishing) 1997.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

Robert,

You said, "If I would interpret Matthew 24 correctly, I'd rather be LEFT BEHIND!"

Did you read my post five posts above yours? You could have saved yourself the trouble!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
In support of us "pre-trib/rapture believers," let me post John MacArthurs's comments on 1 Thes 4:17 for a full shark attack!


[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, none of us are correct all the time!

 

Wellsjs, well, that shark attack of yours turned out to be a guppy attack. John's quotation just isn't that convincing.

I'll again just focus on Matthew 24, the favorite verses of pretribs. Again, those who will be taken away (take v.38 in context) are those who will not be raptured, but those who will be perishing.

We postribs would rather be LEFT BEHIND.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
In support of us "pre-trib/rapture believers," let me post John MacArthurs's comments on 1 Thes 4:17 for a full shark attack!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Robert,

You are right that the Matt 24 verse is not referring to the "rapture" of believers. I misused it, and I'm sure others have also, but MacArthur's commentary bears significant support for a pre-trib rapture. Once again, there is no conclusive evidence and Jesus said even He didn't know the time or the place, so I guess you and I will still be arguing about it when it happens!

 

wellsjs ... Ezekiel 13: 18 - 21 Looking forward to your interpetation ...

 

FHN,

Ezekiel 13:18-21 has nothing to do with the rapture, but since you asked, it's about God's judgment against false women prophets. They "prophesied out of their own imaginations." I think there is a great deal of that going on in many charismatic circles today. Near where I used to live in Florida, there was a "prophet training center!" I'm not kidding. I was in Sam's club one day and a young lady at a stand said, "Let me clean your ring." I obliged her and struck up a conversation and she said she was studying to be a prophet at that center. And we God fearing people thought choosing prophets and enabling them was God's job.

Back to the scriptures: the part that really speaks to me is, "By lying to my people who love to listen to lies, you kill those who should not die, and you promise life to those who should not live." NLT. That's why I hate heresy then and today. There is so much garbage being taught in the highways and byways and TV channels, those weak in the faith often get led far astray from the truth of God's Word. I think killing those who should not die, and promising life to those who should live does not speak of their souls, but means messing up their physical lives, because Jesus said He would not lose a single one the Father has given Him.

In verse 23, it is revealed that sorcery, false teachings, and the like will be with us until the messianic kingdom.