THE RAPTURE

Ultra dispensationalism is only different from classic dispensationalism by degree, not by kind.

Once you become skilled at "rightly dividing" the Word, there is no end to finding "distinctions" in the Word.

So now we have the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of heaven, the gospel of grace, etc.

Imagine, the Great Commission, completely stripped of its relevance to us as God's people.

It's maddening! And classic dispensationalism is riding in the same boat!

 

I have reading the debate about dispensationalism and the gospel.

My question is.

Right NOW, what kind of the gospel, we are preaching? When preaching of the gospel will be ned? What kind of the gospel according to Matt. 24:14? I would like to hear from Carl's respond on Matt. 24:14. What kind of the gospel, Christ commanded his disciplea to preach - Matt. 28:19-20? And finally, I ask you, what kind of gospel will be preaching during great tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Biblical dispensationalism is Pauline in origin, character, and explanation. He preached Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom.16) and he FINISHED the Lord's ministry to the dispersion throughout the world. (Rom.15, Acts 13, 18, 28) He was the MINISTER of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. The 12 WERE NOT. They were going to JEWS according to their HANDSHAKE, but they weren't preaching the gospel as proclaimed in Acts 2, but that which was COMMUNICATED by Paul UNTO THEM. (Gal.2)

Pauline dispensationalism is CHARACTERIZED by "rightly DIVIDING the word of truth". Amalgamation, synthesization, homogenization, integration, etc. IS NOT the correct manner to STUDY. (2 Tim.2)

Bible truth goes a long way in clearing up the errors and erroneous opinions of the brethren.

 

Carl,

You say, Paul was minister for Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, the 12 disciples were not.

Wait a minute...

Isn't Christ commanded his disciples go and preach to the world - include Gentiles?- Matt. 28:19-20

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

All of your questions have been answered by my posts within this thread and many others previously.

 

The question is a "classic", which testifies to the fact that MANY of the brethren don't adhere to SUBSEQUENT PAULINE REVELATION.

Didn't YOU READ Gal.2? What did it SAY? It was SUBSEQUENT REVELATION to that of Matt.28. Their COMMISSION of Matt.28 was set aside due to PAULINE REVELATION. We are NOW under his commission of 1 Cor.1 and 2 Cor.5.

 

Paul the apostle recorded the SUBSEQUENT STATEMENTS of the Lord Jesus Christ FROM HEAVEN to the body of Christ. (Acts 26, 2 Cor.12, 1 Cor.14, Eph.3) His words are not found ONLY IN RED within the gospels. Those are the words of his JEWISH MINISTRY while on EARTH. (Rom.15, Matt.10, 15) Paul recorded his HEAVENLY WORDS.

I don't know a single "Red Letter Kid" who teaches that Matt.5:22 is "doctrinally applicable" to ANY MEMBER of the body of Christ.

It's NOT FOR US individually as members of his body.

No Gentile member of the body of Christ would be tempted to call anyone RACA, and we certainly don't have to bring gifts, OR LEAVE THEM at the altar, to make amends with ANY OTHER MEMBER of the body of Christ IF we were tempted.

It's NOT FOR US historically.

No member of the body of Christ is in danger of hell fire for calling another member a fool. Unless one subscribes to the heretical nonsense of Joey Faust, who teaches that members of Christ's body GO TO HELL. (An unlearned, unstable wresting of the scriptures.)

It's NOT FOR US dispensationally.

Matt.5-7 is a doctrinal dissertation on the CONSTITUTION of the JEWISH kingdom of heaven.

It's NOT FOR US nationally.

Sure we can get "practical-doctrinal" truth from it (2 Tim.3) but it's not WRITTEN TO US.

 

Carl,

I did reading Galatians chapter 2. I understand the whole chapter 2, what it is talking about. Paul made a point, when Peter came to Antioch, there was fellowship both Jews and Gentiles Christians. But, Peter was blamed, because he refused to eat with Gentiles. Understand, Peter was a Jew, he still thinks that we should keep the laws, and circumised. During Early Church history in year around 30 A.D. to 40 A.D. There was agruement among Christians at the meeting in Antioch. They saying when a Gentile became Christian, Gentile must be required to be circumised same as Jew does. There was much misunderstanding about law and grace.

Apostle Peter have bad habit of keeping Jewish religion tradition.

When Cornelius, a Gentile Centurion prayed to God, he seeked for the truth. God called Peter go to preach or witness gospel to a Gentile (Acts chapter 10). God shewed vision to Peter by cast wild beasts in the net. God told Peter to eat them. Peter refused, because he keeps Old Testament laws, the law saying that Jew cannot eat any meats. God's point to Peter, that He wanted Peter to witness to Gentiles. Then, finally Peter obeyed God's call, and went to Gentile's house, and led him to Christ.

Jesus Christ DID commanded his disciples include Peter, go preach to all nations(Gentiles) of Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8. Peter could have witness gospel to Gentile earlier. But it was delay time, probably, because of his disobey Christ's commission. Till God called Peter by vision, wanted Peter to witness gospel to Gentiles.

By the way, Peter preached the gospel of Acts chapter 2 was the SAME gospel, Paul preached.

Also, John chapter 3, Jesus preached the same gospel as Paul preached.

There is no such as so called, "Pauline Gospel".

Galatians chapter 1 warns, do not believe the "another gospel".

Gospel simple mean good news, also, Gospel tells about the death, buried, and resurrection of Jesus Christ - 1 Cor. 15:3-4.

Shortly after Christ risen, He commanded his disciples go and preach the gospel to the world(Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; & Acts 1:8).

Peter preached the same gospel of Acts chapter 2 as Paul preached.

I do not accept distra-dispensationalism, & hyper-dispensationalism, because of complex and conflicts of the gospel.

What is the purpose of the gospel? Also, what is the purpose of Calvary?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Folks:

To clear up all this nonsense about who preached what where go to the following web site:

http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN092MAPS2.htm

Now it is a Biblical fact that the the only Apostle that Paul mentions seeing is Peter as shown in the following passage:

Acts 1:17-24
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24 And they glorified God in me.

Where were the other Apostles? They were presumably off fulfilling the Great Commission, possibly at those locations indicated in the above web site. Therefore, they never shook hands with Paul, they were preaching to Gentiles. What Gospel were they preaching? The Gospel of Jesus Christ about which the Apostle Paul states: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [Romans 1:16]

 

Corrie Ten Boom's comment on Pretrib

I would like to share with you, what she saying on pretrib rapture. She was a Gentile Christian. She grew up in her Christian family. Her family rescued thousands of Jews hide in her family's house during Holocaust/World War II. Her family hospitalized thousands of Jews. Also, witnessed gospel to Jews on Jesus Christ too. Later, Nazi soldiers caught them. Corrie and her sister both were thrown at in the Nazi concentration camp. She suffered there. At the same time, she witnessed gospel to Jews on Jesus Christ. Several Jews were saved there. She have a big heart for Jews.

She was a missionary. She traveled across the world, preachng the gospel of Jesus Christ to people. Even, she met a ex-Nazi soldier. She forgived him.

She died at age 94, went home with the Lord, I think in year around 1975.

I would like to share with you, what Corrie's comment on pretribulation, what she said:

"The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will chnage.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundreds of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things chnaged. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers- bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightned as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to you shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son." This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive-but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. "Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence. She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated-raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes- to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ acorss the world has already entered into the tribulaiton. There is no way to escape it. We are next(America).

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." THen I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy. "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you; on their part evil is spoken of, but on your part He is glorified." (1 Peter 3:14) I found myself saying, "Hallelujah! Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"

In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they caused bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked buibs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

"When I was a little girl, "I said, "I went to my father and said, "Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a marty for Jesus Christ." "Tell me," said Father, "When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when I do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?" "No Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train." "That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need - just in time..."

My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing, "In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore." Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution? First we need to feed on the word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of history, but the life-chnaging Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, and a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strenthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him, for I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life. Hallelujah!"

Wow! What a testimony, she gave of her life for Christ. She was brave and faith in the Lord. She does told a blunt on these false teachers, who teaching we shall be escape from the coming tribulation, obivous -pretribulation rapture.

Notice, word, 'PREtribulation' means before tribulation. This teaching means we will be rapture before tribulation. But, look, Church history tells us, millions of Christians were already persecuted and killed. Even, today thousands or probably millions of Christians across the world are now suffering for Christ. Does pretribulation doctrine make a sense?

Ed gave 5 types of 'tribulation' with verses of his own logical. But, there is no difference between of 'so called 5 types of tribulation'. All of these are same meaning.

'Great tribulation' of Matt. 24:21 is same meaning as 'tribulation'. Both are no difference.

There is NO promise find anywhere in the Bible saying that we shall escape from tribulaiton. Why shall we have tribulation? Because Jesus Christ already suffer on the corss for us. So, we should follow His example of 1 Peter 2:21.

2 Thess. 1:3-7 telling us, we shall NOT reat from persecutions & tribulations TILL Jesus shall come with his angels, and will punish on persecutors who persecute against us, will send all persecutors into everlasting fire in the presence of Christ and his angels - 2 Thess. 1:7-9; & Rev. 14:9-11. 2 Thess. 1:4-9 show very clearly teaching of posttrib coming of Christ. Because we must face persecutions and tribulations first.

That why, I a truly posttribber, because Bible teaches it. Why cannot you accept the clear teaching from the Bible telling us, that we must go through tribulations and persecutions first before Christ comes?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Gal.2:1-2 is speaking of Paul going to Jerusalem in Acts 15.

Had you read it and UNDERSTOOD IT, you would have found a REVELATION unto Paul go GO UP to Jerusalem and COMMUNICATION of "his gospel" (Paul's gospel of revelation from Gal.1) unto the LEADERS at Jerusalem in PRIVATE. (Verses 1-2, 7-9) STRANGE. You didn't mention those verses in your dissertation.

You are dead wrong. Peter DID NOT think that Jews should keep the law and be circumcised WHEN HE WAS AT Antioch. He was SCARED, according to the text. (verse 12) He had ALREADY repudiated law by grace IN ACTS 15! He was not walking upright ACCORDING TO THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL (Paul's gospel which was communicated unto him in ACTS 15!). That's why Paul got on him! Peter did not MANIFEST "practically" what he SAID he believed "doctrinally".

There was NO ARGUMENT among Christians concerning GRACE OVER LAW past Acts 15. It was AGREED upon by all. (Acts 15:6-11)

Who doesn't know that Peter preached to Cornelius? WE'RE INTERESTED in Gal.2 and the other text which you have AVOIDED! Gal.2:9

They SHOOK HANDS that they would go to the JEWS.

You AGAIN evade the verses which have been presented. Matt.28 was NOT FULLFILLED by the 12 apostles at any time. Pauline revelation superceded their commission. It will be FULFILLED during the great tribulation, according to Matt.24, when they preach the gospel of the kingdom.

No, your "suppositional opinion" in VIOLATION of scripture is wrong. PETER "did not" witness to Gentiles BEFORE Acts 10. He was the first ACCORDING to three chapters. (Acts 10,11,15) He was sent AFTER the calling out of Paul due to the dispensational change in the GOSPEL MESSAGE which has taken place. (Acts 9, 1 Cor.9, Gal.1)

The gospel of Acts 2 IS NOT the same gospel which Paul preached FOR PAUL'S GOSPEL did not contain WATER BAPTISM for the reception of the Holy Ghost and remission of sins. (1 Cor.1, Rom.1, Eph.1)

Simply amazing. READ THE VERSES.

John 3 is not the Pauline gospel of the grace of God. That is fantasy. NNE KNEW OR UNDERSTOOD HIS DEATH, BURIAL, OR RESURRECTION FOR SINS; not even his own apostles. (See Luke 18.)

Read the verses, don't AVOID and EVADE them.

You WILL NOT comment on those verss.

If there's not a "Pauline gospel", then Paul is a LIAR who called it MY GOSPEL, and said Jesus Christ appeared to him by revelation, and gave him a DISPENSATION of the gospel. (Gal.1, 1 Cor.9) The truth of the matter is he did, and YOU don't know what you're talking about.

The other gospel is a PERVERSION of Paul's gospel.
Grace mixed with works.

I have commented, explained, and identified all of this previously. You're wasting my time by not reading what is written, redundantly stating your belief without proof, along with evading and ignoring what you don't like or believe.

I am a bible believing Baptist.

 

The nonsense is presented by the "dear brother" who would have you build your doctrine on the "latest findings of some website", SUPPOSITION as to where they went, were, and had gone, and ignorance of OTHER VERSES which teach the truth of the subject.

It is a biblical fact that Paul COMMUNICATED his gospel unto the leaders at Jerusalem in Acts 15. (Peter, James, and John were mentioned.) They are the ONES who shook hands for the CHURCH at Jerusalem.

He wants to know where the other apostles were WHEN HE FIRST returned to Jerusalem in Acts 9, before he went to Tarsus in Cilicia. HE SUPPOSES AND INTERJECTS they were preaching to Gentiles. No, they were not.

According to Acts 8, they weren't SCATTERED. They were in Jerusalem. See Acts 10-11, 15, where Peter goes to the Gentiles FIRST after his vision. It is the ONLY occurrence, according to scripture. See Acts 11 where those who were scattered preached to JEWS ONLY.

Then see the FACT that Paul went to the Gentiles when he LEFT Jerusalem the first time.

Acts 26:20!

The Lord had appeared to Peter PAVING the way for the Pauline revelation, which was to be COMMUNICATED unto the leaders at Jerusalem. (Gal.2)

The brother missed a few things in the Book, or has intentionally covered them up, or wrested them to teach his falsehood.

 

DPT: "She died at age 94, went home with the Lord,
I think in year around 1975."

The facts are quickly available at:

http://www.corrietenboom.com/history.htm

DPT: Notice, word, 'PREtribulation' means before tribulation. This teaching means we will be rapture before tribulation. But, look, Church history tells us, millions of Christians were already persecuted and killed. Even, today thousands or probably millions of Christians across the world are now suffering for Christ. Does pretribulation doctrine make a sense?"

The pretribulation rapture does not have to
make sense. It just
happens to be what the Bible says.

I find it an insult to all pretribulation believers that we
are accused of making up the pretrib doctrine for our
own purpuoses. Let me make a counter charge: what kind of person
ignores the topic on their belief: A-MILLINNIALISM and only
trys to argue against the docrine of someone else? That obviously
tells much about the unsupported a-mill doctrine.

 

Ed Edwards

If you would only show us from the Bible where a pretribulation rapture is taught then perhaps we dispensationalists could come in out of the dark into the glorious light of dispensationalism. Then a thread discussing amillennialism would be completely superfluous.

[ March 10, 2005, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: OldRegular ]

 

Here we are 11 pages after Charles asked the pretribbers for the Scriptural basis for the removal of the Church prior to the GRRReat TRRibulation and not a single passage of Scripture has been presented to support such a doctrine. Strange isn't it?

 

[snipped]

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

The warning is clear.

[ March 10, 2005, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]