The reason I reject any form of decisional regeneration

[Frogman]

I thought I would post this, there may be some interested in knowing why I have come to believe in Spiritual regeneration as opposed to Gospel regeneration.

Before joining a missionary Baptist church I believed this. After joining I made the statement that people have the Gospel preached to them by the Spirit, even as Abraham did (Galatians 3.8)

8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

When I made this statement, I was quickly corrected and taught the truth .

Then there is the idea of perserverance/preservation. I know preachers who accept and teach the idea that a person can reject the Gospel message to an extent the Holy Spirit no longer deals with them. At this point they are cut off from any hope of ever being 'saved.'

At the same time I know a person who possesses all the fruit of the Spirit, never misses a church service and is very active in the church yet believes the above statement. His belief of this statement (and the reinforcing of it) has caused him to believe he has no longer got a hope of ever being saved, yet at the same time he lives a life as close to that of one of the household of faith as I have ever seen. Why does this man fail to find peace with God through the reconciliation Christ has accomplished?

Because of false teaching that he has rejected the Gospel (repent, believe, be baptized) until there is no longer a hope he can be saved.

This is absurdity.

These are only two reasons I believe as I do, but I think they are strong reasons.

Bro. Dallas

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi frogman;

What scriptures did they use to refute your belief?

May God Bles You.
Mike

 

[Yelsew]

[Gal 3:1] You stupid people in Galatia! After you have had a clear picture of Jesus Christ crucified, right in front of your eyes, who has put a spell on you?
[Gal 3:2] There is only one thing I should like you to tell me: How was it that you received the Spirit-was it by the practice of the Law, or by believing in the message you heard?
[Gal 3:3] Having begun in the Spirit, can you be so stupid as to end in the flesh?
[Gal 3:4] Can all the favours you have received have had no effect at all-if there really has been no effect?
[Gal 3:5] Would you say, then, that he who so lavishly sends the Spirit to you, and causes the miracles among you, is doing this through your practice of the Law or because you believed the message you heard?

Witness of scripture: faith and the Law
[Gal 3:6] Abraham, you remember, put his faith in God, and this was reckoned to him as uprightness.
[Gal 3:7] Be sure, then, that it is people of faith who are the children of Abraham.
[Gal 3:8] And it was because scripture foresaw that God would give saving justice to the gentiles through faith, that it announced the future gospel to Abraham in the words: All nations will be blessed in you.
[Gal 3:9] So it is people of faith who receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith.

Come-on Frogman! Consider what Paul is saying to the Galations! What are the choices Paul leaves to the Galations?

Either the practice of Law
or
by believing the message heard!

Which is it with YOU Frogman?

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Frogman:
At the same time I know a person who possesses all the fruit of the Spirit, never misses a church service and is very active in the church yet believes the above statement. His belief of this statement (and the reinforcing of it) has caused him to believe he has no longer got a hope of ever being saved, yet at the same time he lives a life as close to that of one of the household of faith as I have ever seen. Why does this man fail to find peace with God through the reconciliation Christ has accomplished?

We are not saved any works, merit, decision, or any feelings within our ourselves. Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone in the objective promise of the gospel:

I cling to what my Savior taught
And trust it, whether felt or not.
Christian L. Scheidt

 

[John Gilmore]

We are not saved by any works, merit, decision, or by any feelings within our ourselves. Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone in the objective promise of the gospel:

I cling to what my Savior taught
And trust it, whether felt or not.
Christian L. Scheidt

 

[Me2]

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will NOT COME TO ME, that ye might have life.

there are two witnesses everytime we read from the Bible. Gods PERSONAL witness that Comes in Power of the Spirit.
and the testimonies written by men.

As we call the bible Gods words. are we realizing that this book is the actual testimonies of men witnessing of things that they saw and heard in their lives, and the lives of others.

We as Christians have a PERSONAL relationship with the teacher..which is a spirit. He communicates to us spiritually. not in the physical manifestations of written words. we have a SPIRITUAL relationship with God and then attempt to parallel OUR EXPERIENCES with those written of others in the Bible.

Jesus Says it is the (physical) letter that kills. these are physical manifestations of self and others.

but it the Spirit that Gives Life.

Are we having a relationship within our own imaginations with the "knowledge" of what we perceive. of others, or self, or are we having a relationship with the Spirit of God ?.

what then can we say about all of the mis-interpretations of Men.

They read a book without the power of the Spirit.
they have a relationship with the knowledge of Men

they imagine the interpretation of their own minds. they falsify their witness of what they perceive within their mind of Their God and self towards others.

They refuse to Accept a Spiritual Relationship with Their True God, and instead create another one within their own imaginations.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

(can I understand these statement by reading the testimonies of others or by receiving the truth from the spirit ?)

the Spirit witnesses of the spirit within us..

NOT MEN. Not their physical Letter.

 

[Yelsew]

I don't know who or what you are trying to get to Me2, but without the "physical word" which is the "permanent" expression of concepts, thoughts, and ideas, we would still be in the dark ages. We would not know!

Do I deny the Spirit? Absolutely NOT! Denying the Spirit is blasphemy. Nor do I weaken the spirit by declaring the Word, for it is through the word that faith comes to each of us. It is through the word that we grow to desire to be like Jesus. How would we know what Jesus is like if not through the word?

Paul wrote his beliefs, ideas, concepts etc. so that the gentile churches would have permanence in their beliefs. It was the will of God that the word be written and preserved so faithfully by the Church.

It is through the written word that understanding is in any way possible for man. Without the written word you would not be a believer in Jesus Christ!

 

[Frogman]

Your post has two groups of people for its subject.

I agree with you according to what you have said concerning the written word and the guidance of the church (this would also be seen in guidance of believers).

However, I cannot generalize as you have that this written word operates on unbelievers as you have suggested. You must remember, the word as it is used in your key verses means 'utterance' and according to Romans 10 this is the utterance of God and not man repeating the written word or adding his own utterance to any part of that of God's Word.

Eternal salvation comes by the Word of God. The utterance of the voice of God by the Holy Spirit into the heart of those of whom He has chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Because of this there is no possibility that any one of these can be left out or return to their original condition of what we call being lost.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Then you simply deny the words of Jesus in the parable of the sower.

[Mat 13:3-23] and he told them many things in parables.
Parable of the sower in the words of God
He said, `Listen, a sower went out to sow. As he sowed, some seeds fell on the edge of the path, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on patches of rock where they found little soil and sprang up at once, because there was no depth of earth; but as soon as the sun came up they were scorched and, not having any roots, they withered away. Others fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Others fell on rich soil and produced their crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Anyone who has ears should listen!'

Why Jesus speaks in parables in his own words
Then the disciples went up to him and asked, `Why do you talk to them in parables?' In answer, he said, `Because to you is granted to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not granted. Anyone who has will be given more and will have more than enough; but anyone who has not will be deprived even of what he has. The reason I talk to them in parables is that they look without seeing and listen without hearing or understanding. So in their case what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah is being fulfilled: Listen and listen, but never understand! Look and look, but never perceive! This people's heart has grown coarse, their ears dulled, they have shut their eyes tight to avoid using their eyes to see, their ears to hear, their heart to understand, changing their ways and being healed by me. `But blessed are your eyes because they see, your ears because they hear! In truth I tell you, many prophets and upright people longed to see what you see, and never saw it; to hear what you hear, and never heard it.

The parable of the sower explained by God
`So pay attention to the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom without understanding, the Evil One comes and carries off what was sown in his heart: this is the seed sown on the edge of the path. The seed sown on patches of rock is someone who hears the word and welcomes it at once with joy. But such a person has no root deep down and does not last; should some trial come, or some persecution on account of the word, at once he falls away. The seed sown in thorns is someone who hears the word, but the worry of the world and the lure of riches choke the word and so it produces nothing. And the seed sown in rich soil is someone who hears the word and understands it; this is the one who yields a harvest and produces now a hundredfold, now sixty, now thirty.'

Now as you can see for yourself, Jesus does not say anything about pre-belief regeneration.

Who was Jesus speaking about? Jesus' ministry was to the Jews. He never left the land "owned by" the Jews. He did not go to even one gentile nation! He did not pick a single gentile to be one of His Apostles. He came to His own, and His own received Him not!

He commanded his Apostles to go everywhere and make disciples, even to the gentiles, for they would accept Him. That is why the "western world" is today still considered to be "Christian" as opposed to "Judahist".

By the way Frogman, You did not respond to my comments on Galatians 3. Do you not even care that your misuse of that one verse is contrary to scripture? Or that your belief in regeneration prior to belief is not biblical?

 

[Frogman]

Your abuse and omission of Biblical passages make it impossible to respond to much of what you do say.

You make up your own belief and claim the Bible is written by men no different than you or I am and at the same time try to prove that it is the source through which a person dead in trespasses and sins can be eternally saved.

Everything you say ignores the work of Christ the creator and glorifies man.

Then you pretend you have an authority to judge my calling to preach because of my disagreement with your concocted and borrowed views.

I have never proposed nor supported a pre-belief regeneration.

What I believe is the Holy Spirit moves upon the dead individual and that this movement is according to the will of God the Father and is performed only because that individual is a member of the elect for which Christ has suffered and died. What I believe is the words written by Paul (including those written concerning the fall of man through man's own will, and not limited to only those verses teaching believers how to enjoy peace with God in this world, which you make to be conditional eternal salvation), but every word of Scripture from Gen. to Rev. is God breathed.

I believe you are engaged in mere bashing because you cannot support from scripture anything that supports any of your belief system, nor that which you borrowed from Bro. Bill.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Then,

Why don't you believe Matthew 13:3-23?

Why don't you believe Galatians 3?

Why do you insist on misusing scripture?

 

[Frogman]

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

did you actually notice that when asked to explain the parable of the tares..

that jesus told them another parable..

Me2

[ September 27, 2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Yelsew]

Why, no I didn't. What verse in Matthew 13 is it that you find such?

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

Mat 13:24-30 and Mat 13:36-40

the parable of the tares are told twice with little variation.

He really didnt explain it to them.


Now back to the written word of God.

Testimonies or letters were written by men. Written By men who were having a relationship with God.

It is written for later generations to observe and learn from their understanding, yet it is written in symbols, signs, revelations, dreams, visions, parables, proverbs. and last but not least paradoxes.

and evidently meant to be reinterpreted.

they are not literal letters that can be interpreted by others without the proper references or qualifications. namely God Himself

Men desire to look into the "knowledge" of God, Yet they are looking into the wrong place first. they are following the wrong proceedures to aquire this "knowledge".

Christians are taught of the Holy Spirit first. and in two seperate ways. wisdom is expressed through The Spirit to our spirit and the second "part" is expressed to the follower during their activities within their day to day life...the understanding.
both parts combined produce "knowledge" of Who God is and who self is. by observing our own lives we can carnally reinterpret this knowledge in our own language and expressions. creating a personal testimony or witness.

to interpret the wisdom of God. We must have a living relationship with God. For only he can interpret the "encoded" written testimonies of his followers to us.

Then we can understand similar experiences of Others who have written their experiences in the bible. or others speaking of their relationships during our own lives

we are taught of the Holy spirit first.
then we can compare. then can we descipher the true interpretations.

Now some here firmly express that the bible could be interpreted by anyone leading to regeneration.

Can the bible be interpreted by some, without any methods of reinterpretation? without any references of the meanings of symbols or signs or visions?,etc.etc. etc.

Is Gods word written for everyone or for only those that can obtain its correct interpretations?

I firmly say that only when one is regenerated can one begin to be taught by the Holy spirit and begin to compare the truths spoken of others and recorded within the Bible.

that Regeneration is an act of God. he performs and we learn what he has done for us afterwards.
and we can have no pre-knowledge or choices for or against His initial activities.

Me2

[ September 28, 2003, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Yelsew]

What are you trying to say Me2?

 

[Me2]

That Regeneration is the sole choice of God.

That Mankind has no choice as to who attains eternal life nor the order in which mankind will receive it.


When I was a Child. I attended church 3 times a week. cause my grandad was a deacon of his SBC church. I prayed to be saved for over 10 years. It didnt work and I gave up. thinking if its Gods will. It Had to be Gods timing too. so I waited not thinking about it again.

I was saved when I was 25.

and I wasnt praying about it.

at that age I had'nt prayed to God for over 10 years...and poof! I was "saved" overnight

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

That Regeneration is the sole choice of God.

And it is God who said, "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"...That is, "Salvation" for those who don't recognize it. Imagine, whosoever, among ALL, who believes in Jesus, is saved! Being regenerated through believing in the Son of God!

That Mankind has no choice as to who attains eternal life nor the order in which mankind will receive it.

God said, "Whosoever..." meaning that those among ALL who choose to believe in Jesus, the Son of God, shall be saved. Amazing that Grace stuff! Grace that empowers man to accept God though FAITH.

When I was a Child. I attended church 3 times a week. cause my grandad was a deacon of his SBC church. I prayed to be saved for over 10 years. It didnt work and I gave up. thinking if its Gods will. It Had to be Gods timing too. so I waited not thinking about it again.

I was saved when I was 25.

and I wasnt praying about it.

at that age I had'nt prayed to God for over 10 years...and poof! I was "saved" overnight

Me2

When you prayed as a young person to be saved, your prayer was answered immediately. But for some reason you simply did not believe God's promise. Perhaps because you did not "feel" changed, or perhaps because you were trying to be saved to please your grandad because of your love for him. I believe many who post on the BB forums could relate similar experiences, but God is not to blame, He's been there ALL the time. It was you who had to show up in faith, as you did at age 25.

 

[Frogman]

I think I have posted this link here before, but it says so much of what I would say if writing a similar article I thought it would be good to re-post it:

Elder Fisher

 

[tyndale1946]

OH YE FOOLISH GALATIANS... WHO HATH BEWITCHED YOU?... Yelsew as always you are playing with scripture to have it fit your own theology... Question were the brethren who were bewitched at Galatia lost for all eternity worlds without end?... They may have left the truth that Paul established and followed false doctrine as any of us can but are they going to roast in HELL?... I don't believe it and you can believe what you want!... You know where I stand OSAS and they were saved or they wouldn't have lended Paul an ear!... Disobedient rebellious children sure!... Saved?... Absolutely!... Brother Glen