The reason I reject any form of decisional regeneration

[Frogman]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi frogman;

What scriptures did they use to refute your belief?

May God Bles You.
Mike

ILUVLIGHT,

I missed this post earlier, sorry for not replying, didn't mean to appear so rude.

The scripture primarily used in teaching me the truth according to a missionary Baptist church was Romans 10.14-17.

Sorry for not replying earlier.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
OH YE FOOLISH GALATIANS... WHO HATH BEWITCHED YOU?... Yelsew as always you are playing with scripture to have it fit your own theology... Question were the brethren who were bewitched at Galatia lost for all eternity worlds without end?... They may have left the truth that Paul established and followed false doctrine as any of us can but are they going to roast in HELL?... I don't believe it and you can believe what you want!... You know where I stand OSAS and they were saved or they wouldn't have lended Paul an ear!... Disobedient rebellious children sure!... Saved?... Absolutely!... Brother Glen

And if the Galatians had stopped believing, would they still be saved? If so, can you please point out which scripture(s) makes the declaration that one can believe once and stop believing and still be saved?

Are you asking us to believe that all the warnings in scripture about falling away have a different meaning than what is written?

The point that I was making with Galatians 3 is that it does not support Pre-Belief regeneration as Frogman declared it does. Paul gives the Galations only two options as to the source of their salvation. Either satisfactorily meeting all the law, or by believing in God! There is no other scenario given to the Galatians. Pre-belief regeneration is not an option, and it was not a question of OSAS, but rather "From whence comes your salvation.

Galations 3 does not support pre-belief regeneration, but rather, and clearly states that Salvation comes through the works of Law OR by individual faith in God derived from hearing the word. Ya, can't make Paul's words say anything different!

 

[tyndale1946]

So what you are saying is that Paul was warning unregenerates ... Yelsew you crack me up... He was trying to bring them back to the straight and narrow road that led to life not the wide road they were on that led to destruction!... Rebellious children but saved!... Question Yelsew... If you rebel against your natural father do you cease to be his child? ... Brother Glen

 

[Frogman]

Illustration:

Can you ride a bicycle?

Yes.

Do you ride a bicycle?

No.

Can you still ride a bicycle?

Yes.

Once you possess the knowledge of how to ride a bicycle can/do you lose this by not riding a bicycle?

No. You just lose the ability to ride the bicycle with the ease that you once rode that bicycle, however, were you to ever climb on that bicycle again you could still ride it and depending on the daily excercise of riding that bicycle you could regain a measureable ability to do so gracefully.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
So what you are saying is that Paul was warning unregenerates ... Yelsew you crack me up... He was trying to bring them back to the straight and narrow road that led to life not the wide road they were on that led to destruction!... Rebellious children but saved!... Question Yelsew... If you rebel against your natural father do you cease to be his child? ... Brother Glen

Who said that? Only in your own mind.

Stick with the question Glen. The question is how does one get saved in the first place. Paul asked the Galatians how they received their Salvation. Was it by their performing the law or was it by their believing in God. Paul did not give them the option of being Chosen, or being the elect, thereby having faith not of their own choosing. The Galatians believed in God because Paul had preached the word to them, they were not under the law that governed Israel, they were "turks", not of the Chosen people of God. Their salvation is the result of believing in God. That is what Paul was saying.

"Don't be fooled by what others are saying" is Paul's message to the BELIEVERS in Galatia. Don't be fooled into believing that your salvation comes from any source other than your personal belief (FAITH) in God, that you arrived at from HEARING the word of God. You received the Gospel from me, and Placed YOUR FAITH in God because of the Gospel, and you now have Salvation. "Don't be fooled by what others are saying"

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Illustration:

Can you ride a bicycle?

Yes.

Do you ride a bicycle?

No.

Can you still ride a bicycle?

Yes.

Once you possess the knowledge of how to ride a bicycle can/do you lose this by not riding a bicycle?

No. You just lose the ability to ride the bicycle with the ease that you once rode that bicycle, however, were you to ever climb on that bicycle again you could still ride it and depending on the daily excercise of riding that bicycle you could regain a measureable ability to do so gracefully.

Bro. Dallas

Though this may be true for one who continuously believes he/she can ride the bicycle, it is not true for those who lose that belief. They must learn once again to believe they can. Else they cannot. They may physically be able, but they spiritually are not.

The Scriptures say that one can fall away, stop believing, and thereby lose the promise, believe it or not!

 

[Frogman]

where do the scriptures say this?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
where do the scriptures say this?

Bro. Dallas

The parable of the sower is a good start! The "one shall be taken the other left behind" another. "The one who is plowing but takes his hand from the plow and turns back", is another. These by the way are in the Gospels, they are the words of Jesus.

I'll make a list of the scriptures that warn against "falling away", but that will take some time that I don't have today.

 

[Frogman]

Thanks for providing the starting places. I understand about time limitations. Sometimes I have alot and sometimes I don't. Whenever you have the opportunity. I am not going anywhere, though I may fall away from my desk just joking.

I know this is serious to you. I will study the scriptures you recommend.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

all mentioned scriptures referr to believers within the conversion process.

the sower is a parable. it is about the kingdom.
(not regeneration)

it mentions the enemy of believers
the world, flesh, devil and the effects upon those learning within "conversion".
and some attaining 30%, 60% and some 100%.

(nothing referring to regeneration)

next,

"two in the field... one taken, one left".
again..a parable.

it is an absolute statement about the resurrection. (or the end of this "world")

we are described as two entities. one flesh, and the other, spirit.
One is taken..the spirit. and the flesh stays behind in the earth and is eventually destroyed.

and then "one who takes their hand off the plow".

this scripture speaks of those who attempt to be disciples of Jesus and are not focused in their determinations.

the focus here was towards forsaking everything that hindered the persons desires to be obedient to following Gods will.

not that the individual wasnt "regenerated".

we can easily see that following Gods will is what we are to do here. We emulate Jesus.

so what does he say..

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

burying the guys father was the guys predetermined will..not Gods.

none of the scriptures mentioned here has anything to do with refuting the sovereign choice of God to Regenerate whom HE Chooses (with no participation of mankind in this "choice" of God)..

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

all mentioned scriptures referr to believers within the conversion process.

the sower is a parable. it is about the kingdom.
(not regeneration)

it mentions the enemy of believers
the world, flesh, devil and the effects upon those learning within "conversion".
and some attaining 30%, 60% and some 100%.

What school did you go to? The seed the sower sows is seed faith. Seed falling on hard ground is plucked up and carried away by the birds. Seed falling on rocky ground sprouts up only to wither and die. Seed falling on weedy ground is choked out by the weeds (cares of life) But seed falling on good soil sprouts and grows strong producing faith works 30, 60, and 100 fold greater than the one seed. The parable addresses faith in Jesus Christ, and is explained by Jesus.

The parable of the sower explained
[Mat 13:18] `So pay attention to the parable of the sower.
[Mat 13:19] When anyone hears the word of the kingdom without understanding, the Evil One comes and carries off what was sown in his heart: this is the seed sown on the edge of the path.
[Mat 13:20] The seed sown on patches of rock is someone who hears the word and welcomes it at once with joy.
[Mat 13:21] But such a person has no root deep down and does not last; should some trial come, or some persecution on account of the word, at once he falls away.
[Mat 13:22] The seed sown in thorns is someone who hears the word, but the worry of the world and the lure of riches choke the word and so it produces nothing.
[Mat 13:23] And the seed sown in rich soil is someone who hears the word and understands it; this is the one who yields a harvest and produces now a hundredfold, now sixty, now thirty.'

What is it that comes from hearing the word? That's right it is Faith in God, Saving faith, and though related to the Kingdom of God, it really has nothing to do with the Kingdom, but is Jesus' method of telling his Apostles, and us, that not all who hear the word come to faith, and of those who do come to faith not all will continue in the faith. And there are those who are the good ground who hear the word and grow strong in faith, producing much from the faith.

(nothing referring to regeneration)

next,

Think again my friend, the parable of the sower is all about regeneration, regeneration is the entrance to the Kingdom of God.

"two in the field... one taken, one left".
again..a parable.

it is an absolute statement about the resurrection. (or the end of this "world")

we are described as two entities. one flesh, and the other, spirit.
One is taken..the spirit. and the flesh stays behind in the earth and is eventually destroyed.

Two grinding at the mill? Which of those grinding is spirit and which is flesh? I did not know that spirit could grind at the mill. Two laying side by side, which one is spirit and which one is flesh? You are wrong about this Me2, The parable is about FAITH, the one having faith shall be taken the one without will be left behind. Yes, it is about regeneration!

and then "one who takes their hand off the plow".

this scripture speaks of those who attempt to be disciples of Jesus and are not focused in their determinations.

the focus here was towards forsaking everything that hindered the persons desires to be obedient to following Gods will.

not that the individual wasnt "regenerated".

One does not put his hand to the plow of Christianity unless regenerated, but there are things that distract and if one takes their hand from the plow and goes back, it is like the seed that falls on weedy ground. To have the faith to put your hand to the plow then take your hand from the plow is a direct sign of loss of faith. The point is once you have the faith, don't allow yourself to be distracted from it.

we can easily see that following Gods will is what we are to do here. We emulate Jesus.

so what does he say..

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

burying the guys father was the guys predetermined will..not Gods.

none of the scriptures mentioned here has anything to do with refuting the sovereign choice of God to Regenerate whom HE Chooses (with no participation of mankind in this "choice" of God)..Me2

[Mat 13:17] In truth I tell you, many prophets and upright people longed to see what you see, and never saw it; to hear what you hear, and never heard it.

They longed to see God among men, walking with, talking to, being the reason for man to have faith in God. Let me state very clearly to you Me2, I do nothing, have said nothing, and will say nothing that has the remotest possibility of refuting the Sovereignty of God. That is foolish talk on your part. You simply are not rightly dividing the word of Truth. You have bought into a doctrine that is not supported in Scripture.

 

[Frogman]

What a poor helpless God you envision

In your fears, remember the prayer of Christ, the real prayer of Christ and not the one he taught his disciples to pray. The real prayer of Christ can be found in John 17.

I would also recommend reading the KJV just once to see whether the more easily understood translations are accountable for what they call the word of God.

Stop relying on the arm of flesh and rest in Christ and you will understand the person who is resting in Christ will not, cannot and shall not return to a state of unbelief.

Answer this: (reference: some 30, some 60 and some 100), which of these individuals will be eternally saved? It is evident each has a different level of faith. Perhaps all at one time produced 100 but now has fallen to 60, or to 30. Your belief system condemns even these believers my friend.

If you need help with John 17 let me know.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

you state that within your understanding that man or spirit has "free will" or power above that of God to deny Gods will towards man or spirit.

then God isnt ultimately Sovereign.

you have given more power to creation rather than to God. you have taken away the power and authority of God to be in ultimate control and given that final choice to man and spirit.

you have referenced two instances..

satan and adam "rebelling" against God as they show their capability of denying Gods will.

did satan fall? or was he created evil?

did adam rebel of his own accord,
or was it within Gods plans that Adam fail?

initial appearances can be elusive obsticles to overcome without knowing the true nature and will of God.

Is man or Satan more powerful or do they maintain authority given by God as greater than Gods power?

Can man or satan upsurp Gods plans?. His will?. His sovereignty?
If you say that they can, then I repeat..
within your belief structure, He is not sovereign.

Me2

 

[Frogman]

I agree with you Me2, Satan, as all the angels and as man is a created being. God is not created but eternal. That which is eternal is incorruptible. Did God lack the ability to create a being that would not fall? No. But God Sovereignly chose to create beings inferior to himself. It is the fact they are created (we and the angels) that places within ourselves an innate ability to fall. Having fallen through our federal head Adam, we are now dead in our trespasses and sins, this is true whether we share Adam's particular sin or not. It is just as true whether I sin in likeness as any other man or whether my sin(s) are abhorred by some. WE each have the desire within us to satisfy the lusts of the flesh. These lusts are different for each one of us, yet they remain sin against our Holy Creator.

Thus, Christ, being eternal also, took upon himself the likeness of sinful flesh and came into the world to fulfill the Law of God in order that man can be redeemed through Grace. Otherwise, there would remain a need to fulfill that law. This is a common thread throughout Scripture. Even the Law points to the kinsman redeemer and away from man in pleasing God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Answer this: (reference: some 30, some 60 and some 100), which of these individuals will be eternally saved? It is evident each has a different level of faith. Perhaps all at one time produced 100 but now has fallen to 60, or to 30. Your belief system condemns even these believers my friend.

It seems that the amount of faith is not what is important because Jesus said,

[Mat 17:20] He answered, `Because you have so little faith. In truth I tell you, if your faith is the size of a mustard seed you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move; nothing will be impossible for you.'

No, it is not the amount of faith one has that is important, it is that one retain and live one's faith, enduring to the end. Jesus said if we have faith in Him, "even on his name" that we shall be saved.

Even so, the seed that grows into faith, does not remain a seed, but instead grows to produce faith that is 30, 60 and sometime 100 times what it was as a seed. That is the illustration Jesus gave in the parable.

 

[Frogman]

I disagree Yelsew, the view you continually support here is that a loss of faith equals a loss of eternal salvation.

If a believer begins as a 100 or a 60 fold producer of fruit, but falls to 30 fold, they have suffered a loss of faith. So, then their end faith does not equal their beginning faith, so then they have fallen from their eternal position of having eternal life.

I am only applying the logic you have to reach the only conclusion possible. There is no way that either you nor I can determine what constitutes a saving faith. As we see so many people believing, yet following different practices.

Still, I believe eternal salvation is a choice only the Godhead makes and within this choice is found perserverance.

This also is why I reject decisional regeneration. If men make the choice, then truly men are able to unmake that choice, but leaving God Sovereign, this cannot function.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Me2:
Yelsew,

you state that within your understanding that man or spirit has "free will" or power above that of God to deny Gods will towards man or spirit.

then God isnt ultimately Sovereign.

you have given more power to creation rather than to God. you have taken away the power and authority of God to be in ultimate control and given that final choice to man and spirit.

you have referenced two instances..

satan and adam "rebelling" against God as they show their capability of denying Gods will.

did satan fall? or was he created evil?

did adam rebel of his own accord,
or was it within Gods plans that Adam fail?

initial appearances can be elusive obsticles to overcome without knowing the true nature and will of God.

Is man or Satan more powerful or do they maintain authority given by God as greater than Gods power?

Can man or satan upsurp Gods plans?. His will?. His sovereignty?
If you say that they can, then I repeat..
within your belief structure, He is not sovereign.

Me2

Me2, please review the definition of Sovereign and sovereignty here, and tell us what part of the sovereignty of God I can refute.

sovereign, n.
1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2. a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3. a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.
4. a gold coin of the United Kingdom, equal to one pound sterling: went out of circulation after 1914.
adj.
5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
10. efficacious; potent: a sovereign remedy.
ereignly, adv.
Syn. 1. emperor, empress, potentate. 3. government. 5. regal, majestic, imperial, princely, monarchical, kingly, queenly. 7. chief, paramount, principal, predominant. 10. effective, effectual.

sovereignty, n, pl. -ties.
1. the quality or state of being sovereign.
2. the status, dominion, power, or authority of a sovereign; royalty.
3. supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community.
4. rightful status, independence, or prerogative.
5. a sovereign state, community, or political unit.

I see nothing in either of these definitions that says one who is sovereign exercises absolute power over ones subjects. But rather that one who is sovereign has the highest level of authority and when necessary the power to exercise that authority. A king for example does not make all the decisions for everyone of his subjects, as you have God doing for mankind, but instead the King establishes the environment within which his subjects operate using their own abilities. Two side by side kingdoms may be entirely opposite in their environment depending on the king that is the sovereign ruler over each.

The king does have the authority to give or take rights and privileges that his subjects enjoy, because the King has the ultimate power to do so. A king cannot "make" his subjects obey him, but he can make their lives miserable, or snuff out their lives if they are not obedient. If a king snuffed out the lives of all whom he did not have "absolute power" over, or who did not trust him, he would not be ruler over a kingdom, but rather a cemetary.

Sovereignty of God means that God has the ultimate authority over, and power to effect all that are below him in authority. We know that includes all of Creation.

The fact that so many will be cast into the lake of fire provides the evidence that God in his sovereignty does not force men to choose to believe in Him, though all men will acknowledge Him on bended knee. Acknowledgement is not limited to worship and praise, for those who are defeated in battle acknowledge their conquerers, without worshipping and praising them. The victors become the sovereign power not by defeating everyone who opposes them, but by defeating the combat element of those who oppose them. Destroying the ability of an enemy to wage war is paramount in achieving victory through war.

I have given no greater power to man than what God created man to have. Me2, I have no power to give power, but I certainly do recognize what God has given to man, and I do accept that.

That said, there is no power greater than that of God, All of creation is subject to the power of God. He alone holds Sovereign Power. But , does God rule with "absolute power"? There is no evidence that he does, though there have been instances in which He has. e.g., the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the freeing from Egypt, and the wanderings of the children in the wilderness, the conception of His divine and only begotten Son in the womb of one of His created beings, etc.

So, once again you are judging based on incorrect definitions that you hold of God. Your God reigns with Absolute power, while mine rules with Sovereign Power. There is a distinct difference in application and style.

If God ruled with Absolute Power as you indicate He does, He would have long ago become the ruler of a cemetary, for the wages of sin is death, God said so.

 

[Yelsew]

I disagree Yelsew, the view you continually support here is that a loss of faith equals a loss of eternal salvation.

If a believer begins as a 100 or a 60 fold producer of fruit, but falls to 30 fold, they have suffered a loss of faith. So, then their end faith does not equal their beginning faith, so then they have fallen from their eternal position of having eternal life.

You are confusing a principle of faith given and explained by Jesus in a parable, with Salvation. It is the faith condition of man at the first death, that all men must experience, that determines one's salvation. Those having faith, "even on the name of Jesus", are saved from judgment and being cast into the lake of fire. There is no "set amount of faith required" for one's salvation except that one have faith in God, even on the name of Jesus, the Son of God.

The parable speaks of that seed which produces faith. In some the seed finds no place to root, in some it roots then dies, in some it roots but gets choked out, but in some it takes root and grows. Some seeds grow into faith that become 30 times greater than the seed, some 60 times greater than the seed, and some 100 times greater than the seed. These values given, 30-60-100, are not fixed values or measurements of one's faith, but rather relative figures of what the seed that falls on "good ground" has the potential of becoming in that "good ground". For example, one seed of faith in one spot of "good ground" may become Faith that is 30 fold (times) greater than the seed that it grew from, while another seed in another spot of good ground man grow a faith that is 60 fold greater than the seed that produced it, and like wise 100 fold. Jesus could have used values of 300, 600, and 10,000, and the message would be exactly the same, seeds of faith that fall on good ground produce much faith in the good ground, whereas seeds that fall on hard, rocky or weedy ground, do not produce a harvest. Experiment for yourself to see if the principle is not true. Put some seeds on the various types of ground and see which ground actually ends up producing a crop. Then you will know from experience that the Parable is true.

It is faith that is present when one dies the first death that counts for salvation, and the amount of faith is not the important factor, it is the object of faith that counts. One having faith in one's self is the same as having no faith whatever. One having even miniscule faith in 'the name of Jesus' is saved. Now saving faith is not merely believing that Jesus exists, (as the demons do) but believing in Him, trusting in Him, resting in His work that justifies and saves you.

I am only applying the logic you have to reach the only conclusion possible. There is no way that either you nor I can determine what constitutes a saving faith. As we see so many people believing, yet following different practices.

Still, I believe eternal salvation is a choice only the Godhead makes and within this choice is found perserverance.

Do you not realize that it is the Godhead that established the choices for all mankind? Those choices are have faith in God and live eternally, reject God and die the second death. Those are the options that man must choose between. And it is up to man to choose!

This also is why I reject decisional regeneration. If men make the choice, then truly men are able to unmake that choice, but leaving God Sovereign, this cannot function.

If you see God's sovereinty as the application of Absolute Power, you have no choice! You are a "puppet on strings". I see God's sovereignty as the "benevolent dictator" who established the environment in which His subjects are permitted to operate independently. So long as the subject's activities are within the established parameters they are free to do as they choose. The Benevolence of God is that He rewards those who choose to "work within His system" (have faith in Him), and destroys those who do not.

The preponderance of evidence supports my view of God. Whereas, there is little evidence that supports your view of God.

 

[Me2]

If God ruled with Absolute Power as you indicate He does, He would have long ago become the ruler of a cemetary, for the wages of sin is death, God said so.

we live in a cemetary. we are all born "in" death.

we exist in a state of the first death.
being "born again" denotes the idea of a second death.....the death of the first death.

the lake of fire as you keep referring to it is the same idea as Christians today "dwelling in the spirit". one of its purpose is to burn away all the dross of this world that is not glorifying to God.

Gods intentions is not to destroy mens souls. the refiners fire will only destroy the works of the spirit of the carnal flesh that were produced in man.

Now is God absolute?.

EVERYTHING that "is", exists second by second, by A God who wills "it" into being, and sustains "its" very existence.

I call that TOTAL ABSOLUTE sovereignty

Me2

 

[Frogman]

established parameters

What? What?

How can there be any "established parameters"? This violates the freedom of the individuals for whom the "benevolent dictator" [ ] has provided an environment in which they are permitted to make choices freely, yet he has also 'established parameters'?

Contradiction, Contradiction, Contradiction.

Bro.Dallas