The Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians

[Marcia]

Take President Bush for example. He has been blamed for anything and everything. The truth is that many things that are actually the work of others in the administration, the president still gets blamed for it. In common parlance we can still refer to ‘he’ or ‘him’ as responsible for things that in essence were in actuality nothing more than the combined works of his subordinates.

Adam Clarke in his notes on 2Thes. sites Dan 7:8, Rev. 17 both using the word ‘king’ to in reality be speaking of a succession of kings or more than one man.

I could say, 'He' is restraining Obama from taking office at this moment. Could I be speaking of our government as headed up by one man in my comment, therefore in reality the 'he' be referring to our government as a whole, including our Consitution?

It might work for our gov't but not for what Paul was talking about. I think the "now" is important - applies then and now. There is no Roman gov't restraining anything that would connect to this.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Says who? Is there a verse or evidence to support that position? Parents, the law, and our soldiers restrain evil every day. I could say that 'he, referring to our Pesident as the leader of our Armed Forces, restrains the evil, when in fact I am speaking of the President, his cabinet, Congress and our great men and women in uniform as being incorporated in the 'he.' That is when a women becomes a 'he.':wavey:

Well, I disagree. Parents, the law, soldiers may help restrain evil, but they hardly restrain "the mystery of lawlessness." I think this phrase is significant and has to do with a great force coming against Christ.

If believers are removed, there is not anyone who truly opposes evil who is restraining it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The moral of this lesson is : Be careful how you try utilize or read language, written or spoken in common parlance. It does not always like to fit nicely in the limited space of the boxes we create for it. Dictionaries, GK lexicons, etc. are often less than useful tools in Biblical interpretation. Simple words such as ‘He’ may involve the female sex as well.:wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: If believers are removed, there is not anyone who truly opposes evil who is restraining it.

HP: The fact is that there is nothing in this verse to suggest that any believers are removed period. To read into it the rapture of the church is simply unsupported by reason or the text.

 

[Marcia]

The moral of this lesson is : Be careful how you try utilize or read language, written or spoken in common parlance. It does not always like to fit nicely in the limited space of the boxes we create for it. Dictionaries, GK lexicons, etc. are often less than useful tools in Biblical interpretation. Simple words such as ‘He’ may involve the female sex as well.:wavey:

This is from the Greek text:
ἄρτι arti

It is supposed to say "He who now"

Maybe someone who knows Greek can tell us.

 

[Marcia]

HP: The fact is that there is nothing in this verse to suggest that any believers are removed period. To read into it the rapture of the church is simply unsupported by reason or the text.

As I said before, I am not using this support the rapture. Other passages support it. But I am reading this with the rapture in mind and it makes sense to me.

I do not think that any endtime view has ironclad support in Scripture. That is why we will not resolve it. All the views - esp. amil and premil - have some support, depending on how you read the passages.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: I do not think that any endtime view has ironclad support in Scripture. That is why we will not resolve it. All the views - esp. amil and premil - have some support, depending on how you read the passages.

HP: Then what in the world is the Church doing making doctrine out of the pretribulational rapture conjecture as so many are doing as we speak? Others with other views no doubt make doctrine out of their positions as well I am sure.

 

[antiaging]

HP: I agree that there must be a falling away first, but I cannot believe that he who now restrains is referring to Christians period. Sorry.

I certainly agree with you that repentance is a condition of salvation. :thumbs: ( I believe it was you that made that comment)

Because the apostacy means the true Christian faith is not being preached, [in most churches, not all of them] it is more like the masses of people that never get really saved in the first place along with some that knew real salvation but lost it being led astray. The apostacy is like much of the whole church is receiving false doctrine and false teaching, causing some that are saved to turn away from salvation, and many never to get saved in the first place. It's like the true Christian faith is being preached by the few while the many are not preaching it.
The underlying cause is the antichrist system sending people to the bible colleges to get preaching papers and then putting them in the pulpits to preach the watered down gospel, [called the love gospel by Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit priest] he said this has been going on for a long time. See online magazine Alberto. They preach love and unity and almost never talk of repentance and sound doctrine. And they will sneak in false doctrine from Rome. In other words their are many in the pulpits with papers to preach and they are not really saved and not really led by the Holy Spirit. So, the flock is not being fed the true gospel.

If they fall away from the true Christian faith, they are no longer Christians.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If they know longer repent of sin or no longer believe the true gospel than they are no longer saved.

[Unconditional eternal security is a false doctrine and part of the false preaching. It can cause people to stop repenting of sin and go back into deliberate sin. The heart can become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin and then they will no longer believe either.]

 

[rbell]

The underlying cause is the antichrist system sending people to the bible colleges to get preaching papers and then putting them in the pulpits to preach the watered down gospel,

Oh, good grief.

So, going somewhere to study and prepare to carry out God's calling is now part of the "antichrist system?"

First of all, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
Second, no one is "sent," particularly Baptists. People choose to go...in most cases (such as mine), after much prayer and seeking God. Perhaps you should try another approach. Calling us participants in the "antichrist system" is wrongheaded, stupid, and ignorant.

Are there schools of learning that have abandoned the fundamental tenets of the faith? Yes.

Are there people in seminaries/bible colleges for the wrong reasons? Yes.

But unless you butchered your intent when you posted your thoughts...then you have made a terrible accusation that is insulting and downright wrong.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

rbell: So, going somewhere to study and prepare to carry out God's calling is now part of the "antichrist system?"

HP: Say for instance the pope ends up as the anti Christ. That possibility is certainly conceivable. The system of the anti Christ is indeed a religious one not? Could he have schools of training for his followers? Could they be deceived even as God said many would be deceived in the last day to the point of even killing the saints thinking they do God a service? Why is it so strange that one could be part of the system of the anti Christ and think it is his calling and religious duty to go somewhere and study? Could not schools be in operation even today that in the end will have proven to be the tools of the enemy in the end?

 

[Marcia]

HP: Then what in the world is the Church doing making doctrine out of the pretribulational rapture conjecture as so many are doing as we speak? Others with other views no doubt make doctrine out of their positions as well I am sure.

The church makes doctrine out of all sorts of secondary issues. That is why we there are different views among believers.

Sure, others make doctrines out of their views. Are you saying amil or postmil are not doctrines?

 

[ccrobinson]

Say for instance the pope ends up as the anti Christ. That possibility is certainly conceivable. The system of the anti Christ is indeed a religious one not? Could he have schools of training for his followers?

I would imagine that training his followers to watch people through their TV screens is a basic course in the school.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Others with other views no doubt make doctrine out of their positions as well I am sure.

Marcia: Sure, others make doctrines out of their views. Are you saying amil or postmil are not doctrines?

HP: My quote above, in the post you are addressing, answer that clearly. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Crobinson: I would imagine that training his followers to watch people through their TV screens is a basic course in the school.

HP: Now you’ve gone to meddling in a lot of professing Christians minds. :tonofbricks:

 

[antiaging]

Oh, good grief.

So, going somewhere to study and prepare to carry out God's calling is now part of the "antichrist system?"

First of all, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
Second, no one is "sent," particularly Baptists. People choose to go...in most cases (such as mine), after much prayer and seeking God. Perhaps you should try another approach. Calling us participants in the "antichrist system" is wrongheaded, stupid, and ignorant.

Are there schools of learning that have abandoned the fundamental tenets of the faith? Yes.

Are there people in seminaries/bible colleges for the wrong reasons? Yes.

But unless you butchered your intent when you posted your thoughts...then you have made a terrible accusation that is insulting and downright wrong.

You did not understand what I was talking about.
Rome still teaches that there is no salvation apart from the Roman catholic church. They still are trying to pull all churches under the control of the vatican and it is one of their tenets that the pope is supposed to rule the world.
The catholic undercover organization, (which has many members) sends people to protestant bible colleges to get protestant preaching papers. This produces catholics that take orders from the catholic priesthood, pretending to be protestant preachers. They will sneak in catholic doctrine at times. They will fight against the KJV bible, the textus receptus, which teaches that salvation is through faith in Jesus and repentance; you don't need to obey Rome to be saved.
This war that Roman catholicism has had for centuries against protestantism is still going on. But now, instead of open inquisitions to murder protestants, they use catholic undercover agents that have infiltrated the protestant pulpits, bible study teachers, song leaders, etc. They sneak in false doctrine from Rome every now and then and try to promote acceptance for the catholic pagan doctrines. [Things like mary worship, and salvation by sacraments, etc.]
If a protestant preacher speaks against the catholic church, the catholic spies in his church will try to set him up for a scandal, according to Alberto Rivera. If that fails, they may try to poison him or do something else to shut him up. After decades of doing this sort of thing, protestant preaching from the pulpits against Rome has been mostly silenced.
He tells a story of how they had a catholic woman dirty and looking beat up beside the road. When the protestant preacher, that spoke out against Rome, got out of his car to help her, a catholic man jumped out and took a picture. The woman started crying rape, and they destroyed the guy's ministry with this fake scandal. He said women will be used to try to set these guys up for sex scandals if they speak against rome. If they still cannot shut him up, they will try to murder him. Mr. Rivera said as a top jesuit he was trained in poisoning techniques. see on google, the extreme oath of the jesuits. Rivera said he took that oath.
See online magazine Alberto.

 

[Allan]

You did not understand what I was talking about.
Rome still teaches that there is no salvation apart from the Roman catholic church. They still are trying to pull all churches under the control of the vatican and it is one of their tenets that the pope is supposed to rule the world.
The catholic undercover organization, (which has many members) sends people to protestant bible colleges to get protestant preaching papers. This produces catholics that take orders from the catholic priesthood, pretending to be protestant preachers. They will sneak in catholic doctrine at times. They will fight against the KJV bible, the textus receptus, which teaches that salvation is through faith in Jesus and repentance; you don't need to obey Rome to be saved.
This war that Roman catholicism has had for centuries against protestantism is still going on. But now, instead of open inquisitions to murder protestants, they use catholic undercover agents that have infiltrated the protestant pulpits, bible study teachers, song leaders, etc. They sneak in false doctrine from Rome every now and then and try to promote acceptance for the catholic pagan doctrines. [Things like mary worship, and salvation by sacraments, etc.]
If a protestant preacher speaks against the catholic church, the catholic spies in his church will try to set him up for a scandal, according to Alberto Rivera. If that fails, they may try to poison him or do something else to shut him up. After decades of doing this sort of thing, protestant preaching from the pulpits against Rome has been mostly silenced.
He tells a story of how they had a catholic woman dirty and looking beat up beside the road. When the protestant preacher, that spoke out against Rome, got out of his car to help her, a catholic man jumped out and took a picture. The woman started crying rape, and they destroyed the guy's ministry with this fake scandal. He said women will be used to try to set these guys up for sex scandals if they speak against rome. If they still cannot shut him up, they will try to murder him. Mr. Rivera said as a top jesuit he was trained in poisoning techniques. see on google, the extreme oath of the jesuits. Rivera said he took that oath.
See online magazine Alberto.

I think someone needs to quit reading their fictional novals or maybe see a psyciatrist. And seriously - stop watching the "Da Vinci Code".

 

[LadyEagle]

Simple words such as ‘He’ may involve the female sex as well.:wavey:

The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

This thread is pitiful. Why not take the Word for what the Word says instead of trying to read a lot of malarky into it?

The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. The Holy Spirit is a He and is a Distinct Personality, one of which restrains evil. Another of which, "seals" the believer. With the Christians gone and the indwelling Holy Spirit which has sealed them gone, evil will make the world a terrible place to be for there will be nothing to hold evil in check and nothing of goodness. All goodness comes from God. Pray for your lost loved ones that they might come to Life now before the Great Tribulation. The Holy Spirit will also "seal" the 144,000 in Revelation.

Good Grief.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LE: The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

This thread is pitiful. Why not take the Word for what the Word says instead of trying to read a lot of malarky into it?

HP: Your example of Christian charity is well noted LE. I believe Adam Clarke was a good commentator, to just name one of stature that would disagree with you.

LE: The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. The Holy Spirit is a He and is a Distinct Personality, one of which restrains evil.

HP: Your confidence is the matter is unfounded and unsupported conjecture LE. It could be referring to many different entities or individuals. If it was in fact the Holy Spirit, I would have expected that reference to be capitalized. You would do well to add a bit of leeway to your hard and fast interpretation.

LE: Another of which, "seals" the believer. With the Christians gone and the indwelling Holy Spirit which has sealed them gone, evil will make the world a terrible place to be for there will be nothing to hold evil in check and nothing of goodness. All goodness comes from God. Pray for your lost loved ones that they might come to Life now before the Great Tribulation. The Holy Spirit will also "seal" the 144,000 in Revelation.

HP: Are you certain of this LE? First, a pretribulational rapture is not stated anywhere in Scripture. If it is, show us the passage that states it is. Second, why would anyone pray for anyone in the picture you paint? One might as well spend their time praying for the salvation of satan himself as to pray for people left in a world devoid of the Holy Spirit and all believers. “Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” Are you suggesting that the Father draws apart from His Spirit? I would certain not believe that is possible. When the Holy Spirit is gone, all motivation for salvation is removed. There is no innate goodness within the wicked heart of man apart from God’s Spirit that will draw men to Himself period. No Holy Spirit? No salvation possible.

Furthermore, if one reads in Revelation as to what transpires after the rapture one will find these words, “repented not.” No where does it ever speak of any repenting after the wrath of God has began to be poured out. The only solution I see is that the believers will have to go through at least the first half of the tribulation before the rapture, and then the wrath of God is poured out and all that are left repent not and perish.

LE: Good Grief.

HP: I always thought grief was bad but maybe you are really trying to be kind, sort of like saying, “May all your grief be good” or something. Now that a kind thought. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Tom Butler]

Who is the Restrainer? I don't know.

I do observe that the view that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer is predicated on believing in a pre-trib rapture. If one does not hold that view, then the HS/Restrainer view falls, because there is no scripture which explicitly states it.

I also observe that it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to be at some location and not in another. The Spirit is omnipresent, and cannot be otherwise. Therefore, it is impossible for the HS to be completely absent from the earth.

Now, the scripture says that the Restrainer will be "taken out out of the way," not "taken away." This gives the HS/Restrainer view some wiggle room.

It would also permit a rational explanation for the salvation of 144,000 Jews, who otherwise would have been saved without the work of the HS.

But if there is no pre-trib rapture.....

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LB: With the Christians gone and the indwelling Holy Spirit which has sealed them gone

HP: No wiggle room here Tom. I hope she's skinny because she is in a mighty tiny box.