The Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians

[LadyEagle]

I have always taken that same traditional view.
I still do, except to realize that the Holy Spirit is God, and God is omnipresent. That is the only caveat. How can one deny the omnipresence of God? I haven't really changed my view any, except to recognize God's divine attribute of omnipresence.

DHK, I agree with this but am wondering your thoughts.....Could it be that the Holy Spirit, even though omnipresent, withdraws His Presence as Restraint when Rapture occurs? The Holy Spirit was with Israel in cloud by day, fire by night. The Holy Spirit came to indwell believers on Day of Pentecost. What if the Holy Spirit leaves (by own decision) when Rapture occurs, departing with Bride, then returns to seal 144,000? Is there Scripture showing Holy Spirit's role at Marriage Supper of Lamb? Thinking out loud and wondering your thoughts on this, DHK.....

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LE: Agreed. Can you show me Scriptures that say these will be Gentile Christians? Perhaps they will be Jews that have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah via preaching of the sealed 144,000 during the Great Tribulation.

HP: How can any believer be on the earth during a time you say the Holy Spirit is ‘gone?’ You speak of the 144,000 as believers but how can that be with the Holy Spirit gone? “He that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of His.”

Here is yet another glaring problem in your view of Scripture and the end times. I am not to be hard on you, but just as an observer of your comments. You are not alone in this problem either. Others on the list have the same conflicts…and even worse.
Trying to solve this issue with 'maybe's at some point' is no way to establish truth acccording to Scripture. Doctrine need Biblical support, support from matters of fact, first truths of reason, or facts of immutable justice in order to be established as truth.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

DHK, I agree with this but am wondering your thoughts.....Could it be that the Holy Spirit, even though omnipresent, withdraws His Presence as Restraint when Rapture occurs? The Holy Spirit was with Israel in cloud by day, fire by night. The Holy Spirit came to indwell believers on Day of Pentecost. What if the Holy Spirit leaves (by own decision) when Rapture occurs, departing with Bride, then returns to seal 144,000? Is there Scripture showing Holy Spirit's role at Marriage Supper of Lamb? Thinking out loud and wondering your thoughts on this, DHK.....

It is a difficult concept to understand.
I was only thinking of it in a different light because of the realization of the fact that God is omnipresent, and in the respect He cannot remove His presence from any place or He wouldn't be God.

However to understand God, He uses terms that helps us understand Him. He uses anthropormorphisms, for example. "He upholds us with the right hand of his righteousness," when God does not have a right hand. He is Spirit. He hides us under His wing, when He doesn't have wings.

David said:
Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

The Lord would always be with David. But as far as David was concerned that intimate presence would be taken away without repentance and forgiveness.
"The presence" of the Lord will no longer be "present" in the Tribulation in the respect, not that we can remove the attribute of his omnipresence, but that He will no longer be present with man, convicting them, drawing them to the Father, saving them, etc. His work will be finished. That is the only real way that I can reconcile it with the attribute of his omnipresence.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: "The presence" of the Lord will no longer be "present" in the Tribulation in the respect, not that we can remove the attribute of his omnipresence, but that He will no longer be present with man, convicting them, drawing them to the Father, saving them, etc. His work will be finished. That is the only real way that I can reconcile it with the attribute of his omnipresence.

HP: Then would it also be your belief that none will be saved nor can be present that are saved during the tribulation? If not, how can one that is saved or one get saved apart from the influences of the Holy Spirit? “Anyone that has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His.”


Our theology indeed can and will have many uncertainties, but it should never entertain or involve clear absurdities.

 

[LadyEagle]

Thanks, DHK.

HP: How can any believer be on the earth during a time you say the Holy Spirit is ‘gone?’ You speak of the 144,000 as believers but how can that be with the Holy Spirit gone? “He that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of His.”

Further clarification of what I am asking:

The Holy Spirit seals Believers today (See Scripture).
The Holy Spirit withdraws/no longer retrains when Believers depart via Rapture. (End of Church Age/Age of Grace)
The Holy Spirit seals the 144,000 Israelites/12,000 from each 12 tribes and they preach and ALL Israel will be saved (See Scripture).
The Holy Spirit indwells those Israelites saved during Great Tribulation (martyrs during GT), but still no longer restrains evil during that time of Great Tribulation to Earth.

Here is yet another glaring problem in your view of Scripture and the end times.

I see no glaring problem here. Why is so it so difficult to understand the question I asked of DHK? Can you prove from Scripture that others besides Israelites will be saved during the GT? Or is that an assumption that there will be Gentiles saved during that time?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LE: The Holy Spirit seals Believers today (See Scripture).

HP: Agreed.

LE: The Holy Spirit withdraws/no longer retrains when Believers depart via Rapture. (End of Church Age/Age of Grace)

HP: That is pure conjecture, not established in the Word of God. You reason in a circle when you beg the question you need to establish the validity of. You simply are assuming without proof that which you should be trying to establish. Pointing to a verse and saying it means something, when that the Scripture in no wise clearly establishes your point, is not showing evidence or establishing proof. If you desire to establish evidence you will need supporting evidence, clearly associated with the point you are trying to establish. I cannot see where you have done that at all. You just keep beating on the pulpit so to speak. In reality, that establishes nothing but noise.

LE: The Holy Spirit seals the 144,000 Israelites/12,000 from each 12 tribes and they preach and ALL Israel will be saved (See Scripture).

HP: First, if the Spirit is gone, He cannot be indwelling believers, Jews or Gentiles, on earth nor can He be influencing others to be saved, again, Jews or Gentiles. Something can not be and not be at the same time in the same sense. The Holy Spirit cannot be living inside of believers, testifying of the truth to non- believers, and be gone at the same time and in the same sense. This should not be a hard reality to grasp. It is simple God-inspired logic at work.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This notion that the Holy Spirit is indwelling believers and others getting saved by His influences, yet not restraining evil simply cannot be so.

If one is not saved, one is evil, wicked, etc , etc. How long have we on this list hear the litany of adjectives describing the sinful heart of unregenerate man and even some that would subscribe those characteristics to saved man? Are we to believe that with hearts as the unsaved (hopefully not the saved) possess are not engaged in wickedness? Now I know full well there are some on this list that sustain the notion of a sinning religion, but I would hope that most would subscribe to a real changed heart due to salvation. When one is saved he or she should be quitting the sinning business, stop doing the evil and wicked things with the Lords help that they were doing, and cease to be one with the devil and his plans. If that is not restraining evil on the earth, the Pope is not a Catholic.

Folks, the arguments we are hearing concerning the Holy Spirit’s lack of involvement in at least the first half of the tribulation, seeing to the salvation of souls, influencing the believers to overcoming lives and the furtherance of the gospel, and curtailing evil in the process, are pure unsupported and unreasonable conjecture. Further more, if the Holy Spirit was not suppressing evil, not a single soul could be saved. Evil would be in control period. Nothing could surpress the evil thoughts and suggestions of the enemy of our souls and none could be influenced by good long enough to be saved. “Without me ye ( that includes all those present in the tribulation) can do nothing.”

I would add this as well. If evil is not suppressed when souls are saved, I for one do not believe Scripture represents them as saved.

 

[windcatcher]

HP, and others who like to use the small type when posting;

Please consider changing your custom preferences. As I and others get older, it is harder to read the small type.

[now back to the discussion, which I want so much to read but find having to crank my head that close for my bifocals to take effect is making this a pain!]

 

[DHK]

HP, and others who like to use the small type when posting;

Please consider changing your custom preferences. As I and others get older, it is harder to read the small type.

[now back to the discussion, which I want so much to read but find having to crank my head that close for my bifocals to take effect is making this a pain!]

Try pushing down on CTRL and scrolling up (possibly down). It should increase the size of your font.

 

[Amy.G]

Try pushing down on CTRL and scrolling up (possibly down). It should increase the size of your font.

WOW! Thanks DHK! That is so great. I had no idea you could do that. That is very helpful!

:thumbsup:

 

[Marcia]

First, if the Spirit is gone, He cannot be indwelling believers, Jews or Gentiles, on earth nor can He be influencing others to be saved, again, Jews or Gentiles. Something can not be and not be at the same time in the same sense. The Holy Spirit cannot be living inside of believers, testifying of the truth to non- believers, and be gone at the same time and in the same sense. This should not be a hard reality to grasp. It is simple God-inspired logic at work.

The HS is never gone because He's omnipresent. If all believers are gone, however, then there is no one on earth being led by the Holy Spirit - quite a change, wouldn't you say?

God can still send the HS into whomever He desires to draw to Christ, just as He did in the OT when he drew men to Himself, when there was no permanently indwelling HS in men.

 

[Allan]

This notion that the Holy Spirit is indwelling believers and others getting saved by His influences, yet not restraining evil simply cannot be so.

I agree here. The Holy Spirit does not 'indwell' those saved during that time. They are saved in the same manner the OT saints were. They were not indwelt by the Holy SPirit but they were saved non-the-less, - by faith through grace and NOT of works.

 

[Allan]

The HS is never gone because He's omnipresent. If all believers are gone, however, then there is no one on earth being led by the Holy Spirit - quite a change, wouldn't you say?

God can still send the HS into whomever He desires to draw to Christ, just as He did in the OT when he drew men to Himself, when there was no permanently indwelling HS in men.

Amen! You go Girl! :thumbsup:

 

[windcatcher]

Try pushing down on CTRL and scrolling up (possibly down). It should increase the size of your font.

That's neat! But Actually it just zooms the page: By the time the tiny type (HP) is the size of your normal posting size, his posts, yours, and all others is running off the sides of the page and then I have to right and left scroll. LOL


It's not worth the headache or the neck pain I got just trying to read through half his post in this thread.


If its important enough to share, its reasonable to expect it to be large enough for others to read.

 

[windcatcher]

That's neat! But Actually it just zooms the page: By the time the tiny type (HP) is the size of your normal posting size, his posts, yours, and all others is running off the sides of the page and then I have to right and left scroll. LOL


It's not worth the headache or the neck pain I got just trying to read through half his post in this thread.


If its important enough to share, its reasonable to expect it to be large enough for others to read.

First, I apologize for the openness of my complaint both to HP and to the participants in this thread, when I could have pm'd.:tear:
I don't know how it was remedied.... but thanks; this has been a great discussion.:thumbs:

I was of mixed regarding this scripture: Always my impression was that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Still, when reading scripture and uncertain of meaning, I try to keep options open to receive instruction in the Word which is more defining whether it agrees with 'my' initial impression or not.:1_grouphug:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Allan: I agree here. The Holy Spirit does not 'indwell' those saved during that time. They are saved in the same manner the OT saints were. They were not indwelt by the Holy SPirit but they were saved non-the-less, - by faith through grace and NOT of works.

HP: Where in the world do you find that the age of the Holy Spirit can be stopped and started according to ones whimsical opinions as to the end times?

How were they saved in the OT Allan?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: The HS is never gone because He's omnipresent. If all believers are gone, however, then there is no one on earth being led by the Holy Spirit - quite a change, wouldn't you say?

HP: If no one is being led by the Holy Spirit, no one can be saved period. If all beleivers are gone, there is no one left to carry on th ework of the Holy Spirit. God uses men. Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Could it be your opinion that the word ‘preacher’ depicts a work completed by the Holy Spirit apart from human instrumentality?

Marcia: God can still send the HS into whomever He desires to draw to Christ, just as He did in the OT when he drew men to Himself, when there was no permanently indwelling HS in men.

HP: I refer again to the verse above. God uses men to carry forth the gospel. That is His Divine plan. No where is the gospel presented a something carried forth without direct human instrumentality involved.

If the Holy Spirit is involved in the hearts and lives of men, evil is being restrained and He is present and working in the hearts and lives of men. When lives are changed, evil is restrained, not only in their lives and in their direct actions, but in the lives of those around them. If evil is not restained, via the work of the Holy Spirt and at work in their lives and in the world, no salvation can or will occur.

 

[LadyEagle]

The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer, but obviously some here limit the Work and Power of the Holy Spirit to fit into their own neat little box on eschatology. I'm glad He doesn't fit into a neat box. The Holy Spirit was sent in Acts to fill and indwell Believers/Bride of Christ. When the Bride is gone, the Holy Spirit will no longer be here and restraining evil. That is part of God's plan for the Ages. If you choose to not believe that, it is your choice. God does have a plan for the Ages and the Church Age and Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is part of that plan. He also has a plan for the End Times, and sealing of 144,000 and dealing with the Nation of Israel is also part of that plan.

I do not question God's plan. I am thankful He has allowed us a window into a part of His plan, however. We are not to know everything and we are not to figure out everything God has in His plan, nor do we have the capability to figure everything out, but some things are solidly clear from Scripture, and one of those things that is solidly clear from studying the Bible is that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. It makes no difference that He is omnipresent. That is straining at gnats. The Holy Spirit performs certain things and one is the sealing of the Believer in this Present Age. Marcia has pointed out how the OT saints were saved by Faith in the Past Age and she is correct.

Evil unrestrained will happen in the Great Tribulation. I will not be here then for I will be either a) crossed over into Eternity with Him by death, or b) Raptured at the Sound of the Trumpet. It is not God's nature to subject those whom He has redeemed with the Precious Blood of His Own Son to His Wrath poured upon the Earth. The angel in Revelation says "woe" 3x for a reason. God did not give the prophets the OT prophecies and John the Revelator the prophecies to be frivolous. He gave us these for a reason, so we would know what is going to happen in the End Times. God warned the Earth about His Judgment by Flood through Noah. God is warning the Earth about His Coming Judgment through the prophecies. As God did not subject Noah and his family to His Wrath poured upon the earth via Flood, nor will He subject His Bride to His Wrath in the Great Tribulation. Famines, floods, persecutions, deaths, cities and civilizations have been destroyed throughout the ages, but never since the Flood has God's Wrath been poured out upon the entire Earth as it will be during the Great Tribulation.

Believe what you choose to believe.
That's all I have to say on this fruitless discussion.:tonofbricks:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LE: That's all I have to say on this fruitless discussion.

HP: Somehow I find that hard to believe.:saint: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lady Eagle, is there any chance that you could be wrong? If in fact that possibility exists, have you considered the consequences of a wrong opinion, or would there be no consequences if you are in the end wrong?