The Restrainer

[Agent47]

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (KJV)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I have come across various attempts at identifying who this Restrainer is. The most current one seems to be Holy Spirit,and the taking out of the way is rapture.

My question is, will there be any conversion after this taking away?
Is it possible for anyone to come to Christ and remain there without Holy Spirit?

 

[HankD]

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (KJV)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I have come across various attempts at identifying who this Restrainer is. The most current one seems to be Holy Spirit,and the taking out of the way is rapture.

My question is, will there be any conversion after this taking away?
Is it possible for anyone to come to Christ and remain there without Holy Spirit?

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Agent47]

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Great verse. What’s your point?

 

[HankD]

Great verse. What’s your point?

It was in response to the question concerning if ANY will be saved during the Tribulation (when presumably the Spirit is gone from earth) - so yes more than can be counted.

 

[Agent47]

It was in response to the question concerning if ANY will be saved during the Tribulation (when presumably the Spirit is gone from earth) - so yes more than can be counted.

Got you.
Would that mean that sinners don’t need the agency of Holy Spirit to be saved?

 

[HankD]

Got you.
Would that mean that sinners don’t need the agency of Holy Spirit to be saved?

I don't think so. I believe He will still be here in that capacity during the Tribulation.

 

[Agent47]

I don't think so. I believe He will still be here in that capacity during the Tribulation.

What does taking Him away mean?

 

[HankD]

What does taking Him away mean?

Common grace gifts -

Matthew 5
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Gifts given to the church - it will be gone from the earth.

 

[Agent47]

Common grace gifts -

Matthew 5
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Gifts given to the church - it will be gone from the earth.

What gifts are these?

 

[robycop3]

Let's take a close look at the verses in 2 Thessalonians:

2 Thess.2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

We see the restrainer is a HE. I am told by a Koine Greek scholar that V7 should actually read, "til he is out of the way" with "taken" not being in the Greek.

We know that the "what" in V6 is the Holy Spirit's power. He will lift it when it's time for the 'beast' to be born, if he hasn't already been born. Of course, the Holy Spirit Himself will remain here to indwell believers, as he came to do.

Upon close examination of the verses, I believe it's quite-apparent that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Agent47]

Let's take a close look at the verses in 2 Thessalonians:

2 Thess.2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

We see the restrainer is a HE. I am told by a Koine Greek scholar that V7 should actually read, "til he is out of the way" with "taken" not being in the Greek.

We know that the "what" in V6 is the Holy Spirit's power. He will lift it when it's time for the 'beast' to be born, if he hasn't already been born. Of course, the Holy Spirit Himself will remain here to indwell believers, as he came to do.

Upon close examination of the verses, I believe it's quite-apparent that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Thank you.
When and how is He taken out of the way?

 

[HankD]

What gifts are these?

The ones in Matthew 5 for an example, the pleasures of family love, etc

 

[Covenanter]

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (KJV)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I have come across various attempts at identifying who this Restrainer is. The most current one seems to be Holy Spirit,and the taking out of the way is rapture.

My question is, will there be any conversion after this taking away?
Is it possible for anyone to come to Christ and remain there without Holy Spirit?

The context is a prophesied event that must take place before the final events described in 2 Thes. 1. Namely -

2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.​

God's temple was still standing, despite the rending of the veil, & the Gospel of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus in his Olivet prophecy declared that it would be utterly destroyed before the generation that condemned him passed. That would be within 30-40 years & took place in AD 70. The Jewish leaders continued to reject Jesus & persecute those who believed the Gospel. They set themselves above their Messiah, God & Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Christians would however continue in Jerusalem until the signs Jesus gave in the Olivet prophecy would cause them to flee the doomed city. The Holy Spirit was maintaining his witnesses in the city until the time came to leave. The two witnesses - Moses & Elijah, the Law & the Prophets would stand as the final witnesses to their guilt.

Luke 16:31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ 

Rev. 11 writes of those times - of the dreadful destruction.​

There is no inspired record of the final years of Jerusalem when the prophesied chaotic events were taking place, but we have Roman records & Josephus.

We are now in a situation where believers are called to live faithfully through persecution & common tribulation until our Lord returns in glory for resurrection & judgment.

Mark 13:28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”​

 

[Agent47]

The context is a prophesied event that must take place before the final events described in 2 Thes. 1. Namely -

2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.​

God's temple was still standing, despite the rending of the veil, & the Gospel of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus in his Olivet prophecy declared that it would be utterly destroyed before the generation that condemned him passed. That would be within 30-40 years & took place in AD 70. The Jewish leaders continued to reject Jesus & persecute those who believed the Gospel. They set themselves above their Messiah, God & Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Christians would however continue in Jerusalem until the signs Jesus gave in the Olivet prophecy would cause them to flee the doomed city. The Holy Spirit was maintaining his witnesses in the city until the time came to leave. The two witnesses - Moses & Elijah, the Law & the Prophets would stand as the final witnesses to their guilt.

Luke 16:31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ 

Rev. 11 writes of those times - of the dreadful destruction.​

There is no inspired record of the final years of Jerusalem when the prophesied chaotic events were taking place, but we have Roman records & Josephus.

We are now in a situation where believers are called to live faithfully through persecution & common tribulation until our Lord returns in glory for resurrection & judgment.

Mark 13:28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”​

Trying to figure out how or why you tied this to Jerusalem destruction in 70AD

Can you please explain your thought process?

You could start with the arguments WITHOUT scriptures first.

Thanks

 

[Reynolds]

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (KJV)
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I have come across various attempts at identifying who this Restrainer is. The most current one seems to be Holy Spirit,and the taking out of the way is rapture.

My question is, will there be any conversion after this taking away?
Is it possible for anyone to come to Christ and remain there without Holy Spirit?

I think Johnny Mac gets it right;
"the secret power of lawlessness. The Gr. for “secret power” can also be translated “mystery.” This is the spirit of lawlessness already prevalent in society (cf. 1Jn 3:4; 5:17), but still a mystery in that it is not fully revealed as it will be in the one who so blatantly opposes God that he blasphemously assumes the place of God on earth that God has reserved for Jesus Christ. The spirit of such a man is already in operation (cf. 1Jn 2:18; 4:3), but the man who fully embodies that spirit has not come. For more on mystery, see notes on Mt 13:11; 1Co 2:7; Eph 3:4, 5. taken out of the way. This refers not to spatial removal (therefore it could not be the rapture of the church) but rather “a stepping aside.” The idea is “out of the way,” not gone (cf. Col 2:14 where our sins are taken out of the way as a barrier to God); see note on vv. 3, 4. This restraint will be in place until the Antichrist is revealed, at the midpoint of the Tribulation, leaving him 42 months to reign (Da 7:25; Rev 13:5)."

 

[robycop3]

Thank you.
When and how is He taken out of the way?

Most likely, The Father will tell Him, "Allow the beast be born"

 

[robycop3]

The context is a prophesied event that must take place before the final events described in 2 Thes. 1. Namely -

2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.​

God's temple was still standing, despite the rending of the veil, & the Gospel of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus in his Olivet prophecy declared that it would be utterly destroyed before the generation that condemned him passed. That would be within 30-40 years & took place in AD 70. The Jewish leaders continued to reject Jesus & persecute those who believed the Gospel. They set themselves above their Messiah, God & Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Christians would however continue in Jerusalem until the signs Jesus gave in the Olivet prophecy would cause them to flee the doomed city. The Holy Spirit was maintaining his witnesses in the city until the time came to leave. The two witnesses - Moses & Elijah, the Law & the Prophets would stand as the final witnesses to their guilt.

Luke 16:31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ 

Rev. 11 writes of those times - of the dreadful destruction.​

There is no inspired record of the final years of Jerusalem when the prophesied chaotic events were taking place, but we have Roman records & Josephus.

We are now in a situation where believers are called to live faithfully through persecution & common tribulation until our Lord returns in glory for resurrection & judgment.

Mark 13:28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”​

You have the events confused. The destruction of J, etc. were the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced upon that generation of Jews. The ESCHATOLOGICAL events didn't occur then.

And the Jews received a MUCH-GREATER punishment, beginning a coupla generations later, in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land. This continued until it culminated in the nazi holocaust. After that, God began to lift His punishment, the most-significant sign being the Jews' having a sovereign nation again, in their owl land, for the first time since the Babylonian conquest.

When J & the temple were destroyed, there was no "beast" nor false prophet, no "marka the beast", no "abomination of desolation", and certainly no return of Jesus. I believe Matt. 24:29-30 wipes out any speculation that the great trib occurred in 66-70 AD.

Simple TRUTH is, the "beast" is not yet manifest. He may or may not have been born yet. We won't know until he comes into the world scene.

 

[Covenanter]

Trying to figure out how or why you tied this to Jerusalem destruction in 70AD

Can you please explain your thought process?

You could start with the arguments WITHOUT scriptures first.

Thanks

Paul in 1 Thes & 2 Thes. 1 has said a lot about Jesus coming, but including in 1T2:14-16 a final judgment on the Jews. That judgment would take place within a generation of Jesus' rejection, death & resurrection. See the Olivet prophecy in Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21.

In 1T4 it seems the Thessalonians were concerned that the dead believers would miss the coming of Jesus. He reassures them that alive or dead will meet him together.

In 2T2 - the passage you are asking about - Paul says the judgment on those controlling the temple must take place before the final coming for judgment. He is not writing about a distant future event. He says he told the Thessalonians details which he hasn't put in writing to us.

God is gracious - he continued his witness to Jerusalem by resident Christians, including James who the Jews threw from the temple roof. But his patience came to an end in AD 70.

The Jews of Peter's time were scoffing - some of their fathers had died, & Jesus had not come in judgment. He gives a warning which we also can take - the final coming will be without further warning.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
......
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.​

 

[Agent47]

Paul in 1 Thes & 2 Thes. 1 has said a lot about Jesus coming, but including in 1T2:14-16 a final judgment on the Jews.

On what basis do you restrict this to Jews and not the whole world?

 

[Covenanter]

You have the events confused. The destruction of J, etc. were the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced upon that generation of Jews. The ESCHATOLOGICAL events didn't occur then.

And the Jews received a MUCH-GREATER punishment, beginning a coupla generations later, in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land. This continued until it culminated in the nazi holocaust. After that, God began to lift His punishment, the most-significant sign being the Jews' having a sovereign nation again, in their owl land, for the first time since the Babylonian conquest.

When J & the temple were destroyed, there was no "beast" nor false prophet, no "marka the beast", no "abomination of desolation", and certainly no return of Jesus. I believe Matt. 24:29-30 wipes out any speculation that the great trib occurred in 66-70 AD.

Simple TRUTH is, the "beast" is not yet manifest. He may or may not have been born yet. We won't know until he comes into the world scene.

God in his Commandments limited his judgment to 3-4 generations, to the disobedient & the children who shared their disobedience. There is no suggestion in Scripture of perpetual wrath against further generations. In fact, with the destruction the Jews ceased to exist as God's nation -

Mat 21:43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.​

After the prophesied judgment on Jerusalem in AD 70 God would have no further specific dealings with the Jews - they were simply a people group under the command -

Act 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.​

Many thousands of Jews became believers, beginning with John's disciples, then those who followed Jesus in his earthly ministry, Pentecost & the Apostolic Gospel, and those called by the Apostles as they went out into all the world - initially preaching where they found a Synagogue of dispersed Israelites.

These Christian Jews did not continue the Jewish religion, but united with Gentile Christians - with countless descendants.

As for eschatological events & evil characters (beasts), they are prophesied in Scripture, but there is no Scriptural record of them, presumably because the Scriptures were completed before the events. We believe the judgments happened as Jesus & the Apostles prophesied. Why should we doubt other things happened?