When you think of all those Baptist boys and girls in uniform who know very well who has the high ground here. Yes, I know separation of church and state is a cherished tradition in this country, but the disrespecting of Billy Graham’s boy by the Department of Defense is just plain stupid.
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The Rev. Franklin Graham disinvited
- Thread starter lori4dogs
- Start date
When you think of all those Baptist boys and girls in uniform who know very well who has the high ground here. Yes, I know separation of church and state is a cherished tradition in this country, but the disrespecting of Billy Graham’s boy by the Department of Defense is just plain stupid.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Makes one think we are on our way to needing to declare in some fashion someday to a government, "Jesus is Lord, and there is no other."
And you want basic Baptist stuff legislated into law?
No, I want the government to quit hosting Christian prayer services, or Muslim or Buddhist or whatever. Historic Baptists fought for the separation of church and state, Too many Baptists today, since they seem to think they are in some kind of a majority, don't think separation of church and state are that important and some even claim unconstitutional. What a shame!
No, it is not a doctrine of mine, it is called the First Amendment! Forty five beautiful words that ensure I am free to pursue or not pursue my religion of choice without interference from the state. Also frees the government from having to choose, support or explain one religion over another.
I'm not so sure I would have chaplains in the military either. But might be convinced otherwise.
I'm not so sure I would have chaplains in the military either. But might be convinced otherwise.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Neither ... outside of the date.
Defending the separation of church and state, basic Baptist 101, though they historically have not been the only ones, it has been a historic belief of Baptists. Based on the belief that all of humanity is able to respond to God and therefore accountable for said responses individually. Since humanity is able to respond to God individually, there shouldn't be any human creation that stands in the way of how, when or why an individual responds to God, including a governing authority. Humanity must be free to respond to God according to the dictates of their own conscience, even if from my Baptist perspective, they choose to respond by rejecting God or worshiping another god that I believe will ultimately result in their bringing upon themselves the wrath of God as revealed in scripture.
Might I recommend "Axioms of Religion" by E.Y. Mullins
Might I recommend "Axioms of Religion" by E.Y. Mullins
Bob Alkire
New Member
Not what I was taught. I was taught in school, college and seminary that it was no church was to receive monetary support from the government as the church of England and many churches in this country for a while. I believe the term "separation of church and state" puts no limits on religion in the state, but merely refers to the state's responsibility to refrain from exerting authority over ecclesial bodies.
As you go back in our history the faith of the people were well wrote about and what impact it had on our country. Prayer before congress, Supreme Court in military and so on. Thomas Payne is much more loved today than yesterday. Washington could have got his friend out of his mess in France with a letter asking for him to be let go, he wouldn't but Jefferson did.
Was this country formed as a Christian Country? No!!! But it was forms on many Christian principles. If one reads the constitution of the colonies and the states, one will see what they were talking about.
Yes, I cannot nor would I argue the fact that the founding of this country was primarily by Christians or at least those who claimed to be Christian. Christians who in many cases wanted the government out of the church business, though not all agreed and many states had for a period of time state supported churches.
The statement "I believe the term "separation of church and state" puts no limits on religion in the state, but merely refers to the state's responsibility to refrain from exerting authority over ecclesial bodies." I believe falls short of the full meaning of the First Amendment.
Any relationship cannot be one-sided such as you suggest. To say the government can't exercise authority over what our church teaches on the one hand then to expect the government to bend to the desires of a church(es) is disingenuous at best and still leaves unanswered, which church? If you say Christian, which denomination? If you say Baptist, which version? Then you have to come up with an explanation as to why a Baptist American is more important then a Jewish American (or any other nonBaptist American) who though not as populous at the founding of this country, were still very influential in the entire process. By maintaining a neutral stance on religion by not endorsing, helping or interfering freedom for all is guaranteed
A mechanism has been put in place for the religious people to "influence" the government, the voting process. The ballot box is where all Americans stand on level ground. One person one vote.
The statement "I believe the term "separation of church and state" puts no limits on religion in the state, but merely refers to the state's responsibility to refrain from exerting authority over ecclesial bodies." I believe falls short of the full meaning of the First Amendment.
Any relationship cannot be one-sided such as you suggest. To say the government can't exercise authority over what our church teaches on the one hand then to expect the government to bend to the desires of a church(es) is disingenuous at best and still leaves unanswered, which church? If you say Christian, which denomination? If you say Baptist, which version? Then you have to come up with an explanation as to why a Baptist American is more important then a Jewish American (or any other nonBaptist American) who though not as populous at the founding of this country, were still very influential in the entire process. By maintaining a neutral stance on religion by not endorsing, helping or interfering freedom for all is guaranteed
A mechanism has been put in place for the religious people to "influence" the government, the voting process. The ballot box is where all Americans stand on level ground. One person one vote.
Bob Alkire
New Member
My friend, that is what I was taught and still believe. I do believe we or our courts have changed the meaning. As Justice Potter Stewart complained that jurisprudence was not "aided by the uncritical invocation of metaphors like the 'wall of separation,' a phrase nowhere to be found in the Constitution."
I don't think it was a question to which God, if one takes time to study our history. Yesterday most disagreed with Payne, today most think he was a great man. One text book tells us today that Jefferson was a man of great faith, yesterday that isn't how he was looked at. Times change.
Today in most schools what you believe is taught as correct but that wasn't taught when I was in school or my grandfather.
Then it is a doctrine you believe in, and it is in the constitution, therefore binding law. Your doctrinal belief is the law. Correct?
Now, I guess you could say that, but it wasn't always that way as there were state supported churches at the founding of America. It is a doctrine that I would still believe even if not stated in our constitution. I believe all people should be free to express themselves and respond to God as they see fit. Many courageous people died (and continue to die) for this to be a reality, for that I am extremely grateful. I will always defend this belief even when threatened by well meaning but misguided Christians be they Baptist or otherwise.