The rise of Calvinism?

[Reformed]

You presented, "Christ died to atone for the sins of the Elect. If that is so, ..." That that is the point. IF

I used "if" in the same way it is used in Matthew 24:24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." (emphasis mine)

I supposed anyone can tinker with anything. I am keeping to the majority opinion of definite atonement which is Christ died for the sins of the elect (and to secure their salvation).

 

[Jerome]

...to attend Southern Seminary?

No, it's professors who are expected 'to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to" it.

here is the brief Abstract of Principles:

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

 

[agedman]

I used "if" in the same way it is used in Matthew 24:24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." (emphasis mine)

I supposed anyone can tinker with anything. I am keeping to the majority opinion of definite atonement which is Christ died for the sins of the elect (and to secure their salvation).

What I am presenting may not be the "majority opinion." "Broad is the way... and many..."

What I am attempting to present (though admittedly most poorly) is that the Calvinist presentation on the limited atonement should not be based upon a payment of sin, for certainly those who are unredeemed do die for that is the certain wage of sin. Nor am I presenting that sin is not still a matter that plagues every believer or 1 John would not be so precious.

Sin is alive and well in all. For all die.

What I am presenting is that the limit is found in another aspect of the atonement.

A more Scripturally supported limit.

That limit is in the ability to believe.

It is that ability in which is held in the sole authority of the Father and passed to the Son. (John 1, John 3, John 6, ...)

 

[Reformed]

What I am presenting may not be the "majority opinion." "Broad is the way... and many..."

What I am attempting to present (though admittedly most poorly) is that the Calvinist presentation on the limited atonement should not be based upon a payment of sin, for certainly those who are unredeemed do die for that is the certain wage of sin. Nor am I presenting that sin is not still a matter that plagues every believer or 1 John would not be so precious.

Sin is alive and well in all. For all die.

What I am presenting is that the limit is found in another aspect of the atonement.

A more Scripturally supported limit.

That limit is in the ability to believe.

It is that ability in which is held in the sole authority of the Father and passed to the Son. (John 1, John 3, John 6, ...)

Brother, I do not believe it is an either/or proposition. Christ's death did accomplish atonement for the sins of the Elect. Christ laid down His Life for His sheep (John 10:15). Of course, that means that only those predestined to be sheep are able to believe.

 

[Jerome]

Trevin Wax assessed the characterizations made about the seminary in Calvinist hype man Collin Hansen's book Young Restless & Reformed :

"Collin does not do justice to the diversity among Southern’s faculty. Not one of the deans currently serving at the seminary is a five-point Calvinist."

"Furthermore, the three students Collin highlights were all of Calvinist persuasion before coming to Southern....Collin devotes several pages to telling Timmy Brister’s story. I sometimes wonder if Timmy Brister and I attend the same seminary. Collin writes about Timmy 'giving seminary leaders an earful...[about] chapel speakers'....It saddens me that for some Southern students, inviting to chapel a Baptist brother with whom we share strong ecclesiological ties, but who doesn’t subscribe to Calvinist soteriology would be more controversial than listening to someone like R.C. Sproul or Ligon Duncan....If we can learn from those who disagree with the Abstract on a doctrine as important as baptism, surely we can learn from someone who disagrees with unconditional election."

 

[agedman]

Brother, I do not believe it is an either/or proposition. Christ's death did accomplish atonement for the sins of the Elect. Christ laid down His Life for His sheep (John 10:15). Of course, that means that only those predestined to be sheep are able to believe.

I agree.

Christ laid down his life for His sheep. His purpose was accomplished, but not just for His sheep. But for all creation, for just as the Redeemer explained to Nicodemus, God's love for the Creation (kosmos) is expressed in giving the Son.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Reformed,

I am also a realist and understand that Calvinism, along with Covenant Theology, are a minority position among Christians in the United States[/QUOTE].

Hello Reformed,

I understand what you mean by this statement,
My reluctance is found in a growing suspicion that things are not quite what they seem to be.
7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

I have been in quite a few churches and am concerned about what I see taking place. One church has what they call "homecoming Sunday"
Members who have not been in church for months or years are invited to come home? As if they really were ever church members to begin with?
Mega churches and inflated numbers do not get it done.

Those who understand the grace of God, and the covenants seem quite a bit more grounded and settled. The teaching leads to obedient Kingdom service.

Nominal Christians for the most part...when you engage them in conversation...do they even have a position?
I know what you mean but if professed believers are non descript should we give them a position by default?

Do we just somehow give them a participation trophy? You know, good to see you, thanks for coming out today, as they race to get out of the building before anyone talks with them about spiritual things

Inflated numbers, nominal professors, are they in the Kingdom, or part of the multitude spoken of in MT.7?

I guess to sum it up, I do not concern myself with the numbers as much as faithfulness.

 

[Reformed]

Nominal Christians for the most part...when you engage them in conversation...do they even have a position?
I know what you mean but if professed believers are non descript should we give them a position by default?

Do we just somehow give them a participation trophy? You know, good to see you, thanks for coming out today, as they race to get out of the building before anyone talks with them about spiritual things

There is no such thing as a nominal Christian. One is either a Christian or he is not.

I am not bothered by the fact that as a Calvinistic, covenantal, and confessional Baptist I am in the minority compared to professed Christians in broad evangelicalism. This is not a popularity contest. My desire is to know and follow the truth.

 

[agedman]

"Reformed,

Is your statements not following what Paul said,

7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.​

This is the heart of the true believer.

However, it doesn’t end in what the ungodly may consider selfishness, rather that concern for others reflected by even the Redeemer on the cross, who in the depths of agony cared for others more than Himself. That mission expressed in us, too.

17Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
​

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no such thing as a nominal Christian. One is either a Christian or he is not.

Yes...exactly....many bodies in buildings, multitudes to be rejected at the White throne.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is your statements not following what Paul said,

7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.​

This is the heart of the true believer.

However, it doesn’t end in what the ungodly may consider selfishness, rather that concern for others reflected by even the Redeemer on the cross, who in the depths of agony cared for others more than Himself. That mission expressed in us, too.

17Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
​

Yes Agedman, enemies of the cross of Christ. We are fooled from time to time...Jesus is never fooled.

 

[JonC]

There is no such thing as a nominal Christian. One is either a Christian or he is not.

I am not bothered by the fact that as a Calvinistic, covenantal, and confessional Baptist I am in the minority compared to professed Christians in broad evangelicalism. This is not a popularity contest. My desire is to know and follow the truth.

This is what people on all sides of the issue should realize. It is why you are a Calvinist and why I am not. We both desire to know and follow the truth.

Scholars abound on all sides. Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike diligently study Scripture, pray, and devote their lives to following God as best they can.

Yet Christians arrive at different conclusions - not because one theology is "God given" but because we see now as through a glass dimly, we know in part. The difference is not spiritual maturity but the finite nature of human understanding.

 

[Reynolds]

No, it's professors who are expected 'to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to" it.

here is the brief Abstract of Principles:

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

Thanks. It ensures all professors are Calvinists. One can not logically embrace Unconditional Election without embracing the other 4 points.

 

[Reformed]

Yet Christians arrive at different conclusions

I agree but this does not mean there are multiple truths on the same issue. A Synergist brother may be completely convinced that his view his correct based on his study of the scriptures. Likewise, I am totally convinced that the Monergist view is correct based on my study of the scriptures. Both of us may have goodwill towards the other but we both believe the other is wrong. Depending on the importance of the disagreement we may choose to just put it aside and continue on. Some disagreements make continued partnership in ministry untenable. Those are bridges to be crossed at that time.

 

[JonC]

I agree but this does not mean there are multiple truths on the same issue. A Synergist brother may be completely convinced that his view his correct based on his study of the scriptures. Likewise, I am totally convinced that the Monergist view is correct based on my study of the scriptures. Both of us may have goodwill towards the other but we both believe the other is wrong. Depending on the importance of the disagreement we may choose to just put it aside and continue on. Some disagreements make continued partnership in ministry untenable. Those are bridges to be crossed at that time.

There are not multiple truths, I agree. The difference is people's understanding and interpretation of Scripture (the same Scripture) and a bit if what is not actually written.

I suspect there is misunderstanding in all theologies (probably by necessity). The only time I am concerned (to the point of dismissal) is with the few who believe their theology to be divine truth without the possibility of error.

 

[JonC]

Six hour warning. This thread will be closed sometime after 3:20 pm EST.

 

[Reformed]

The only time I am concerned (to the point of dismissal) is with the few who believe their theology to be divine truth without the possibility of error.

I had a professor that once said, "Hold on to your theological convictions strong enough that they are secure but loose enough that you can easily drop them if you later find out they are wrong."

 

[Iconoclast]

Truth is God given. A natural man cannot come to truth unless and until God allows him to.
Among actual Christian's spiritual maturity is a factor.
Many factors hinder people from arriving at truth.
Many times they have not heard it actually preached and taught.
Others settle for routines and carnal substitues.
Many are prideful and God resists them .
Some get a prophecy sweet tooth.
Others invent novelties.
I have even seen people who do not post unless it is rejoicing over the fall into sin of a professed Christian, or a ministry falling into sin. Truth is not coming their way anytime soon.
If someone sets sail with the intent to oppose truth, they often times succeed.

 

[JonC]

I had a professor that once said, "Hold on to your theological convictions strong enough that they are secure but loose enough that you can easily drop them if you later find out they are wrong."

Good saying.

We always need to reexamine our views. When we stop then we cease learning. But we do hold our convictions strongly and are right to do so.

John MacArthur said (paraphrasing) that his view is always right because when it is not he changes it to the right view.

 

[JonC]

Truth is God given. A natural man cannot come to truth unless and until God allows him to.
Among actual Christian's spiritual maturity is a factor.
Many factors hinder people from arriving at truth.
Many times they have not heard it actually preached and taught.
Others settle for routines and carnal substitues.
Many are prideful and God resists them .
Some get a prophecy sweet tooth.
Others invent novelties.
I have even seen people who do not post unless it is rejoicing over the fall into sin of a professed Christian, or a ministry falling into sin. Truth is not coming their way anytime soon.
If someone sets sail with the intent to oppose truth, they often times succeed.

Often "truth" ends up subjective because it is not what is revealed in Scripture but rather folks understanding (sometimes of things we can never know).

I do believe that God leads people where they need to be. I heard the gospel from a free-will church and was saved. I suspect I was there for that reason. Same when I was a Calvinist. I learned a lot and grew in my faith. God led be out of Calvinism and I continue to grow and learn.

One thing I have learned is spiritual truth is not cognative knowledge.

That is why I have never (and will never) be anti-Calvinist or anti-free-will theologian. Both places men in opposition to God. We hold our views strongly but do not judge Another's servants as that is beyond our purpose. We are all saved for God's own glory.