The rise of Calvinism?

[Reformed]

John MacArthur said (paraphrasing) that his view is always right because when it is not he changes it to the right view.

That sounds like Johnny Mac. LOL

 

[Reformed]

Truth is God given. A natural man cannot come to truth unless and until God allows him to.
Among actual Christian's spiritual maturity is a factor.
Many factors hinder people from arriving at truth.
Many times they have not heard it actually preached and taught.
Others settle for routines and carnal substitues.
Many are prideful and God resists them .
Some get a prophecy sweet tooth.
Others invent novelties.
I have even seen people who do not post unless it is rejoicing over the fall into sin of a professed Christian, or a ministry falling into sin. Truth is not coming their way anytime soon.
If someone sets sail with the intent to oppose truth, they often times succeed.

And this is where wisdom among the spiritually mature must prevail. We need to know if we should respond to error and how to respond to it if we choose to engage. Sometimes all we can do is pray. We should always check our motives when we pray for someone else in this regard. Pride is a constant temptation and all of us stumble in that area at different times.

 

[Yeshua1]

The reason there are so many so-called four-point Calvinists is because of definite (also known as particular or limited atonement) atonement. If someone believes in definite atonement then there is no logical reason why they would reject any of the other points. That is why Particular Baptists are known by that name. Definite atonement is the hinge on which Calvinism pivots. Christ died to atone for the sins of the Elect. If that is so, then how can any elect person resist the effectual call? They cannot.

One cannot pull apart any of the so called 5 points, as they are biblically linked to each other!

 

[Yeshua1]

What I am presenting may not be the "majority opinion." "Broad is the way... and many..."

What I am attempting to present (though admittedly most poorly) is that the Calvinist presentation on the limited atonement should not be based upon a payment of sin, for certainly those who are unredeemed do die for that is the certain wage of sin. Nor am I presenting that sin is not still a matter that plagues every believer or 1 John would not be so precious.

Sin is alive and well in all. For all die.

What I am presenting is that the limit is found in another aspect of the atonement.

A more Scripturally supported limit.

That limit is in the ability to believe.

It is that ability in which is held in the sole authority of the Father and passed to the Son. (John 1, John 3, John 6, ...)

Depends if we ignore or water down the penal subtitution that those such as a Calvin affirmed was in the scripture regarding the Atonement!

 

[JonC]

And this is where wisdom among the spiritually mature must prevail. We need to know if we should respond to error and how to respond to it if we choose to engage. Sometimes all we can do is pray. We should always check our motives when we pray for someone else in this regard. Pride is a constant temptation and all of us stumble in that area at different times.

I think we also have to remember that most of us (hopefully all of us) do not hold the same views on many of these topics as we did initially. At one time we have just as strongly defended a different position.

Often people move from one view because on a particular issue and later move from that view for another issue all together.

For example, I left Free-Will theology and became convinced of Calvinism because of issues concerning predestination. Through prayer and study I came to see error in Free-Will theology and arrived at a Calvinistic understanding. After a long time I became aware of unrelated issues with Calvinism and through prayer and study moved from Calvinism to the "classic view". But this has to do with my understanding and the work of God in my life.

We argue against what we understand as error but we have to remember to keep it addressed to doctrine and not the Christians who hold the view.

 

[37818]

One cannot pull apart any of the so called 5 points, as they are biblically linked to each other!

It is understood that way by many. Yet I only hold two points, the first and the fifth point. I see unmerited as a condition of election. I see Christ died and is risen to be Lord of all. I see the perishing resist God's grace to their doom.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is understood that way by many. Yet I only hold two points, the first and the fifth point. I see unmerited as a condition of election. I see Christ died and is risen to be Lord of all. I see the perishing resist God's grace to their doom.

As do we Calvinists, as the lost are not resisting Grace in the sense that God intended to save them and they are rejecting His efforts to save them!

 

[37818]

Fullerism is five point evangelical Calvinism. Some think it is only four point Calvinism because it understands as being for the whole world referring to its sufficiency of the finished work of Christ for securing salvation only for His sheep out of the world.

 

[37818]

As do we Calvinists, as the lost are not resisting Grace in the sense that God intended to save them and they are rejecting His efforts to save them!

Do you have a Scripture for that?

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you have a Scripture for that?

John 1:9-13

 

[Yeshua1]

Fullerism is five point evangelical Calvinism. Some think it is only four point Calvinism because it understands as being for the whole world referring to its sufficiency of the finished work of Christ for securing salvation only for His sheep out of the world.

Fullerism?

 

[JonC]

Fullerism?

The doctrine of Andrew Fuller (closer to Jonathan Edwards than John Calvin)

 

[37818]

When I think of irresitible grace the parable of the sower comes to mind where someone whose faith is shallow ". . . he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. . . ." -- Matthew 13:20-21.
". . . when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ." -- Luke 8:13.
". . . when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. . . ." -- Mark 4:16-17.

Also comes to mind Acts of the Apostles 7:51, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

And Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."

So the concept of God's sheep ultimately finding God's grace irresitible I believe.

But to simply claim God's grace is irresitible I do not believe. The gospel must be correctly undertood so its truth is not hid (2 Corinthians 4:3). Hmm . . . the reason God's grace is resisted.

 

[Reformed]

Fullerism is five point evangelical Calvinism.

Maybe. Andrew Fuller was famous for changing his mind. This is why I prefer the term Monergism to Calvinism, although I have no problem with Calvinism. I have said in another post that Monergism is the theology behind Calvinism and the Doctrines of Grace. There are many Monergists who do not identify as Calvinists for various reasons, although they are in complete agreement with Calvin's soteriology. If you reduce Calvinism to its lowest common denominator you are left with the view that "the Holy Spirit is the only agent who effects regeneration of Christians. It is in contrast to Synergism, the view that there is a cooperation between the divine and the human in the regeneration process" (McKim).

 

[37818]

Fullerism?

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/bq/20-3_099.pdf

 

[Reformed]

We argue against what we understand as error but we have to remember to keep it addressed to doctrine and not the Christians who hold the view.

Agreed. The only caveat I will add is that sometimes the individual does become the error and that by pointing that out you are effectively warning others to beware of that individual's teachings. For example, I would place the late Harold Camping in that category. His extreme views on the day of the Lord and ecclesiology were not only wrong theologically but those views and Harold Camping the person became inseparable. Admittedly, these situations are exceptions but they do occur.

 

[37818]

Agreed. The only caveat I will add is that sometimes the individual does become the error and that by pointing that out you are effectively warning others to beware of that individual's teachings. For example, I would place the late Harold Camping in that category. His extreme views on the day of the Lord and ecclesiology were not only wrong theologically but those views and Harold Camping the person became inseparable. Admittedly, these situations are exceptions but they do occur.

In around 1969 when I was in the Air Force, I listened to Harold Camping's call in radio talk show.

 

[37818]

When I think of irresitible grace the parable of the sower comes to mind where someone whose faith is shallow ". . . he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. . . ." -- Matthew 13:20-21.
". . . when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ." -- Luke 8:13.
". . . when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. . . ." -- Mark 4:16-17.

Also comes to mind Acts of the Apostles 7:51, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

And Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."

So the concept of God's sheep ultimately finding God's grace irresitible I believe.

But to simply claim God's grace is irresitible I do not believe. The gospel must be correctly undertood so its truth is not hid (2 Corinthians 4:3). Hmm . . . the reason God's grace is resisted.

I am rethinking my view on irrestable grace here. With 2 Corinthians 4:3 in mind.

 

[Reformed]

I am rethinking my view on irrestable grace here. With 2 Corinthians 4:3 in mind.

One way to look at irresistible grace is to not look at it in the negative. Opponents of Calvinism often look at irresistible grace as limiting man's free will. Man is saved kicking and screaming. Nothing is further from the truth. When God calls one of His elect, that individual desires nothing more than to come to God. There may be plenty of kicking and screaming before they are regenerated (made capable of belief), but when the Holy Spirit does His regenerating work in an individual's life, that individual wants nothing more than to come to Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Truth is not subjective, but rather it is objective.

Jesus came to bear witness to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth heard His voice
Jn18:37-38....notice Pilate suggested it was subjective.

Calvinism does not put believers in opposition to God.
We can judge righteous judgment.