The Root...of Doctrinal Apostasy...what is that?

[loDebar]

I disagree with how you would work through Hebrews 6 in this matter.

Hebrews 6 is about those who became apostates. They are not saved. They are as the seed scattered upon shallow soil which grew for a bit but withered.


Do you not see that In this part?

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​

There is no salvation to be found in the apostate. There never was.

v 6 is the key
Heb 6:6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Can Jesus be re crucified,, no ?

verse 7 says the blessing of God {or opportunities} are for all. The bad {decisions} growth is rejected,
Heb 6:7¶
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[Iconoclast]

loDebar said: ↑

Heb 6 is not apostasy despite claims and commentaries but security of the believer, being saved once.

It is most certainly apostasy...it is not even in question...it is a falling away.[apostasy] into perdition.

 

[agedman]

Ah you foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?

One can start out well, stray off the narrow path to the left or right as a backslider or into legalism, and find your way back to the path. It is not salvation that I had in mind (which was settled before the foundation of the Earth) but the “walk” (sanctification).

What you are describing is that of heresy, not apostasy.

The distinction is in terms of renunciation. One may certainly drift, as some say, stray, however the apostate doesn't drift or stray, they actually renounce or state in effect that they no longer hold to certain core doctrines and foundational statements of Scriptures.

One may be involved in heresy before continuing to apostate by actually declaring that which is opposite to Biblical truth.

Back decades ago, a man named Peale was an influential fellow. A denier of many of the fundamental foundational statements of Scriptures. A "bishop" who stated, "It is not necessary to be born again." He was an apostate. Though he carried great credentials and influence, he was a denier of the foundational truths of Scriptures.

There are those who would lump Hyles, and Ruckman into the camp of apostasy, I do not extend to them that dishonor, but I do hold both as heretical in some of their thinking and teaching.

Now, I give you these three names not to shame them, but to give you as loose examples to further your own investigation into the difference and why I can hold Hebrews 6 as I do.

It is important that you also keep in play that thinking given by the Apostle Paul, that one of the indications of the last days is the acceptableness of the apostasy, and people desiring their ears be pleased rather than their hearts tuned to the Holy Spirit by being taught the Scriptures.

The apostate is as Judas the betrayer. He was well respected in the apostles, trusted as the keeper of the treasury, entrusted to walk with them, learn with them, do miracles with them, and yet he was never "of them."

 

[Iconoclast]

v 6 is the key
Heb 6:6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Can Jesus be re crucified,, no ?

verse 7 says the blessing of God {or opportunities} are for all. The bad {decisions} growth is rejected,
Heb 6:7¶
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

FRom AW.PINK;

“If they shall fall away”. The Greek word here is very strong and emphatic, even stronger than the one used in Matthew 7:27, where it is said of the house built on the sand, “and great was the fall thereof”. It is a complete falling away, a total abandonment of Christianity which is here in view. It is a wilful turning of the back on God’s revealed truth, an utter repudiation of the Gospel. It is making “shipwreck of the faith” ( 1 Timothy 1:19). This terrible sin is not committed by a mere nominal professor, for he has nothing really to fall away from, save an empty name. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply “fall into sin”, this or that sin. The greatest “sin” which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he “renewed again unto repentance”. It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy. “If they shall fall away”. “This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did — a supposition which, however, could never be realized — then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’. The apostle obviously intimates that such persons might, and that such persons did, ‘fall away’. By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness” (Dr. J. Brown). “It is impossible.... if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance”.


“

 

[loDebar]

FRom AW.PINK;

“If they shall fall away”. The Greek word here is very strong and emphatic, even stronger than the one used in Matthew 7:27, where it is said of the house built on the sand, “and great was the fall thereof”. It is a complete falling away, a total abandonment of Christianity which is here in view. It is a wilful turning of the back on God’s revealed truth, an utter repudiation of the Gospel. It is making “shipwreck of the faith” ( 1 Timothy 1:19). This terrible sin is not committed by a mere nominal professor, for he has nothing really to fall away from, save an empty name. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply “fall into sin”, this or that sin. The greatest “sin” which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he “renewed again unto repentance”. It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy. “If they shall fall away”. “This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did — a supposition which, however, could never be realized — then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’. The apostle obviously intimates that such persons might, and that such persons did, ‘fall away’. By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness” (Dr. J. Brown). “It is impossible.... if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance”.


“

yeah, I know what is said, even Scoffield's referenced notes, It is not a translation problem, just a English sentence structure issue. The verse , chapter , is talking about Christian perfection not the basics of salvation again. "this we will do if God permits"

The opportunity of salvation is given to all, as God provides rail over all.

One cannot be saved again because Christ cannot be crucified again

 

[loDebar]

This error is an apostasy because it strays from the direct teaching here in Hebrews, Yet look who all repeats this that we can loose or almost be saved when the verses say no such thing

 

[Iconoclast]

This error is an apostasy because it strays from the direct teaching here in Hebrews, Yet look who all repeats this that we can loose or almost be saved when the verses say no such thing

Thorns and briers.....are APOSTATES all through the ot....that seals the deal.
See ezk2:6....isa10:17

 

[Covenanter]

We need to remember the Jews were the primary recipients of the letter to the Hebrews. We should therefore consider Heb. 6 as being addressed to the Jews who had had Jesus among them, living, teaching, healing, rebuking, tried, rejected & crucified. They have heard the Gospel of repentance & forgiveness in Jesus name proclaimed to them.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.​

The risen LORD Jesus accused Saul of persecuting him. Saul repented. These apostates are confirming their rejection of their Saviour, so in effect they are confirmed the sentence passed on him. There is no other Saviour. That generation will perish without mercy.

Yet the Gospel stands until the end of time.

 

[loDebar]

Thorns and briers.....are APOSTATES all through the ot....that seals the deal.
See ezk2:6....isa10:17

To treat the crucifixion as insufficient or inadequate or repeatable is apostasy.
To reject God's open equal blessings leads to destruction v7

the verse you list are certainly true but it does not apply to " the falling away"
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Did not God pay for all sin? Does God need to die again for one's sin?

NO

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What would be meant by...."the root" of doctrinal apostasy?

I will venture the opinion that pride is the root of doctrinal apostasy.
This comes in two forms as follows:

1. 'I am so well-taught at seminary, so knowledgeable in the Biblical languages, so experienced in the word, so intelligent and astute that I don't need to listen to anybody else because I have the anointing, the master touch.......etc.

2. 'I know my Bible so well and am so super-spiritual that I don't need to read any books on theology or learn from anyone because I have the anointing, the master-touch.....etc.

Both these approaches have led to apostasy in the past and will doubtless do so again. The antidote to both of them is good, old-fashioned humility or meekness.


And you get to inherit the earth as well.

I will mention one other thing: it is necessary that theological seminaries be staffed by regenerate men who have a clear vision of what is needed to produce the evangelical Pastors of the future.

Henry Grove was the Principal of a Presbyterian Seminary from 1725-1738. Bennet and Bogue (History of Dissenters) relate that he was a man of considerable intellect, writing learned articles for the Spectator and other secular publications. They continued, ‘His knowledge of moral philosophy was unsurpassed and he published many erudite documents on a variety of subjects. But important and valuable as all these qualities are, one thing was wanting to complete his character and give efficacy to the whole; and the want of that rendered many of the others worse than useless. It is by the principles of religion which a tutor instills into his students, that they become a blessing or a curse to the human race; assassins of souls or instruments of salvation. Unhappily Mr. Grove was not sound in the faith; and as he advanced in years, he became more averse to evangelical doctrines. The greater part of the students imbibed the spirit of their tutor, and going forth with their new divinity, they starved and scattered the flourishing churches, which the pure doctrine of Christ had gathered and increased.’

 

[1689Dave]

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The way I understand this passage is in the sense of limited atonement. That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away. But for those who fall away, they were not among the number of elect. So they would need God to elect them for salvation, and for Christ to return to the cross to redeem them. Because his death paid only for the sins of the elect, else all would be saved.

 

[Iconoclast]

To treat the crucifixion as insufficient or inadequate or repeatable is apostasy.
To reject God's open equal blessings leads to destruction v7

the verse you list are certainly true but it does not apply to " the falling away"
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Did not God pay for all sin? Does God need to die again for one's sin?

NO

It helps to understand the verse reads if having fallen away they've already done it it's an accomplished falling away or apostasy if having falling away it's impossible to renew them to repentance

 

[loDebar]

it is impossible to fall away... unless they crucify Christ again for every little sin. Do they have the power to do this? No, then one cannot lose salvation..period.....Let us go on to perfection...v1

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.....

 

[agedman]

it is impossible to fall away... unless they crucify Christ again for every little sin. Do they have the power to do this? No, then one cannot lose salvation..period.....Let us go on to perfection...v1

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.....

As one who does not agree with limited atonement as a limit upon the shed blood for all creation, but that limit is placed as those who are called to redemption through the death and resurrected Lord, it is clear that the teaching of Hebrews 6 is to all who are apostate and that has no subset to the saved. The apostate was never and is not saved.

You desire to select "tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" as if that is and indication of salvation.

1) all the world partakes of the work of the Holy Spirit. That is His work in which Christ said He would accomplish.

2) the blessings and gifts of God are shed upon both the unrighteous and righteous. That is also in agreement with the Scriptures.

What the verse does not support is one saved, and then being an apostate. Nope, Cannot happen.

One who is saved may become heretical, but ultimately the child of God cannot become an apostate. Such passages as Romans 8 will not allow for that.

If one is "In Christ Jesus" they are saved. Only the saved are "In Christ." Romans 8 states that there is "no condemnation" to the saved.

For those who would limit the passage to only the Jews, it is important to recall that the NT states that there is no line of consideration as to nationality, station, merit, gender, ... when it comes to salvation. The Jews are redeemed as are the gentiles. Therefore, although Hebrews is certainly addressing issues from the perspective of the Jews, it is not limited nor any passage application to only the Jews, but to all who would pervert the gospel by human rationalism, the same as Satan did in both the garden and the wilderness.

The point being that many buy into the lie(s) and therefore are apostate - unsaved - never been saved - cannot be saved for as the Lord said, the single unpardonable sin is assigning the things of Satan to the Holy Spirit or vice versa.

 

[loDebar]

one cannot be apostate if they have never correctly believed

 

[agedman]

one cannot be apostate if they have never correctly believed

There is no reason to attempt to assign salvation to the apostate.

Just as one does not assign salvation to the anti-christs.

For both are on the same mission and cut of the same cloth.

"On that day they will take up against you a taunt And utter a bitter lamentation and say, 'We are completely destroyed! He exchanges the portion of my people; How He removes it from me! To the apostate He apportions our fields.'"

 

[loDebar]

There is no reason to attempt to assign salvation to the apostate.

Just as one does not assign salvation to the anti-christs.

For both are on the same mission and cut of the same cloth.

total agreement

 

[Yeshua1]

But that is different from the apostate.

The apostate never finds their way back out.

Hebrews 6 fits the apostate, it does not fit the heretic.

One who strays into "charismatic extremes" is embracing that which is heretical.

One who departs from the gospel once delivered by the apostles is an apostate.

True Christians can commit heresy, but not Apostate, correct?

 

[Iconoclast]

Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men, from men whose words are perverse, who leave the straight paths to walk in dark ways. Proverbs 2:12-13

While residing at Ludlow Castle, Richard Baxter (who would write The Saints’ Everlasting Rest) became friends with a young man who showed genuine zeal and diligence in faith. He was the first person Baxter ever heard pray from the heart in the pulpit without reading his prayer. He was full of kindness and love, read God’s word and good books and greatly helped Baxter to grow in faith. However, this preacher was encouraged by a higher ranking clergyman to leave the Puritans and to begin speaking evil against them. Soon he debauched himself and became a complete apostate. His error began with perverse words and ended with personal ruin.

 

[loDebar]

Pro 3:5

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding