The Roots of Catholicism

[LaRae]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
Or to be more accurate, Pentecostalism was created in 1901 and came out of the Wesleyan Holiness movement.

Nope, don't believe so! "THE CHURCH" was 'born' and not 'created' on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts second chapter)

Apostolic Pentecostals still hold to the teachings of the Apostles, which could take in a lot of typing. I think most get the picture.

The Wesleyan Church never came into existence until years later.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]But you still provide nothing to support your claims.


LaRae

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by WPutnam:

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
[qb] Or to be more accurate, Pentecostalism was created in 1901 and came out of the Wesleyan Holiness movement.

Taking your word for it, but also, the Wesleyan movenent was itself an offshoot from those others who inturned, offshoots that originally broke away from Catholicism.

They are branches cut from the tree, lying on the ground, no longer a part of Holy Church!

But God loves them anyway, and even the Catholic Church considers them "incomplete members" simply by their belief in Christ!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Apostolic Pentecostals were never a part of the tree. They are the 'ROOT.'

....even the Catholic Church considers them "imcomplete members"....

That's right nice of you all Bill.

MEE

[ October 21, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

[GraceSaves]

I picked up Woodrow's "Babylon Mystery Religion" at the library today and read a good bit of it. Worst. Scholarship. Ever. Evidence is rerouted and rerouted until when you finally find the source of it, you realize the whole thing was circular (which Woodrow eventually, by the grace of God, realized when he retracted his book and wrote "The Babylon Connection" to refute it.

Every other sentence in the book takes some generalization and says things like "It is obvious that" and "Everyone knows that" and "the Scriptures make it clear that," as well as Bob-style quotations that are totally unreferenced, blatent misrepresentations of doctrine, feigned lack of Scriptural evidence for the Catholic side when it DOES in fact exist, etc etc etc.

I dunno, just thought that was funny, since this is the kind of source all this nonsense is based on, and I'm seeing the same tactics employed here. Ray said that Alexandrian scholars relied "strictly" on the allegorical method, and that the Church adopted this. If he believes that, good for him; I guess darkness is easier on the eyes than the Sun of Righteousness (purposeful Scriptural reference to the LORD God in the Old Testament, even though apparently anything that remotely looks like the sun is pagan).

In the mean time, please explain how the world was formed in literal 24 hour days when the sun and moon, which are necessary for "24 hour days" to exist were not created until the 4th day. Or which came first, animals (Genesis 1:24-27) or man (Genesis 2:18-20)?

Maybe one day you will realize that absolute truth can still be present even when an account is written poetically.

Just my two cents. Don't expect me to respond, as we all know, it'll go know where.

God bless you all! I'm headed to a Catholic Student Association dinner, and then I'm going to spend an hour with Our Blessed Lord in the Eucharist, because, believe it or not, I LOVE JESUS.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by LaRae:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
Or to be more accurate, Pentecostalism was created in 1901 and came out of the Wesleyan Holiness movement.

Nope, don't believe so! "THE CHURCH" was 'born' and not 'created' on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts second chapter)

Apostolic Pentecostals still hold to the teachings of the Apostles, which could take in a lot of typing. I think most get the picture.

The Wesleyan Church never came into existence until years later.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]But you still provide nothing to support your claims.


LaRae </font>[/QUOTE]Sure I did...

Read Acts! ...Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You will get a better picture if you read all of the Acts of the Apostles. It's a wonderful book... showing how "The Church" was born and began to grow.

MEE

 

[LaRae]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LaRae:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
Or to be more accurate, Pentecostalism was created in 1901 and came out of the Wesleyan Holiness movement.

Nope, don't believe so! "THE CHURCH" was 'born' and not 'created' on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts second chapter)

Apostolic Pentecostals still hold to the teachings of the Apostles, which could take in a lot of typing. I think most get the picture.

The Wesleyan Church never came into existence until years later.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]But you still provide nothing to support your claims.


LaRae </font>[/QUOTE]Sure I did...

Read Acts! ...Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You will get a better picture if you read all of the Acts of the Apostles. It's a wonderful book... showing how "The Church" was born and began to grow.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]No you made the claim that the pentacostals started at pentacost.....but you have no evidence to back that up.

I have yet to see you provide any documents as to where this Church was from the time of Christ's death up to the 1800/1900's.


LaRae

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
mioque,

I hope that it is not just because you are lazy that you have nothing to say about the Alexandrian allegorical method of interpretation coming out of Egypt in the second century. Research this for yourself; it's great to be enlightened!

Three problems with that approach with Mioque --

#1. It is history.

#2. It envolves paying attention to the details of history - available to all.

#3. It is not favorable to Catholicism.

His thread on the title Vicarius Filii Dei demonstrates his aversion to historic details available to all - and anything that is not pro-Catholic.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by LaRae:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LaRae:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
Or to be more accurate, Pentecostalism was created in 1901 and came out of the Wesleyan Holiness movement.

Nope, don't believe so! "THE CHURCH" was 'born' and not 'created' on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts second chapter)

Apostolic Pentecostals still hold to the teachings of the Apostles, which could take in a lot of typing. I think most get the picture.

The Wesleyan Church never came into existence until years later.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]But you still provide nothing to support your claims.


LaRae </font>[/QUOTE]Sure I did...

Read Acts! ...Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

You will get a better picture if you read all of the Acts of the Apostles. It's a wonderful book... showing how "The Church" was born and began to grow.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]No you made the claim that the pentacostals started at pentacost.....but you have no evidence to back that up.

I have yet to see you provide any documents as to where this Church was from the time of Christ's death up to the 1800/1900's.


LaRae </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry LaRae, this board will not allow me to post any links explaining anything about "The Church" that was born on the Day of Pentecost. It was/is not of the Trinity, but of the belief in One God.

I have documentations, but they are not allowed. You will have to read the book of Acts to see when the NT Church was born. Ah...that is if you can get permission from your church to do so.

MEE

 

[Ray Berrian]

Someone said, ' . . . the Wesleyan movenent was itself an offshoot from those others who inturned, offshoots that originally broke away from Catholicism.

Ray is saying, 'I may be incorrect but I think the Wesleyan Church broke away from the Methodist Church. Wesleyans don't hold to any add-on theology like: Mariolatry, Penance, Purgatory or other provocative errors. The Wesleyan Church is light-years away from Catholicism. The Wesleyan Church has produced some of the greatest Biblical preaching of this century and not merely a ten minute summary of the Gospel reading.

Someone said, 'They are branches cut from the tree, lying on the ground, no longer a part of
Holy Church!

Ray is saying, 'No evangelical Christian that I know wants to stand before the Lord having been a part of an apostate church. A church should magnify all of the cardinal truths of the Holy Gospel and should excise all add-on theology. [Revelation 22:18-19]

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
A church should magnify all of the cardinal truths of the Holy Gospel and should excise all add-on theology. [Revelation 22:18-19]

Oh, good. Then I'm in the right Church.

Catholic and in love with the Lod,

Grant

 

[Ray Berrian]

Dr. Grady said in his book, "Final Authority," 'While Alexandria pioneered the allegorical or figurative style, Antioch maintained the strict literalist mode of orthodoxy which would naturally demand a greater regard for precise word-for-word copying.'

The school at Antioch provided the hermeneutics for Protestantism, while Catholicism in some passages especially in Revelation, water down the true meaning of end times events.

Catholics like to elevate Origen as a great Catholic. Did you know that he believed in the preexistence of the human soul (i.e., John the Baptist was previously an angel), Dr. Menzies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10:383.

He believed that Christ's death was paid as a ransome to Satan. Dr. Earle E. Cairns, "Christianity Through the Centuries" Zondervan Publishing House, p. 328.

He denied both the coming "bodily resurrection" and the Millennial Kingdom. Dr. Fisher, "Christian Doctrine." p.112. Now you well understand why Catholicism today still believes we are in the Kingdom Age and denies Christ's future Millenimum of 1,000 years.

Philo, Origen and others from Alexandria were taught to chance the actual meaning of Scripture, by turning the Word into a poetic, allegory. There error was not in the occasional and ancillary use of this enriching Scriptural method {Galatians 4:24}, but rather in their abusive exclusion of the literal method of interpretation of Scripture. To see the beautiful typology in Genesis is fine, but denying the true and historic fact of the Genesis account is terrible.

When teachers allegorize the Scripture they are taking away the potent value of what Jesus is saying to us.

Best regards to each one.
Ray

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by WPutnam:
The scripture I quotes speaks nothing of a "dead man," but simply that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, period.

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6:53-56 Catholic NAB)

The part in bold is what you left out after your period. It says you have NO LIFE in you. Guess what, without life, you are dead. Your interpretation puts a period where there is not one. It is not good to ignore that line of scripture.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
To my Catholic brothers --

Same old BS...different day.

I say the same to my non-catholic brothers and sisters.

Catholics are not going to acknowledge the pieces in history that are unfavorable to their church. They are taught not to. Instead, they are going to turn the argument around and change the subject or attack your motives...which they can't possible know for only God is supposed to know what is in our hearts.

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
People with an agenda do not listen and are unteachable.

And your agenda is obviously to "teach" us your version of the truth. Most catholics that post on the BB are here with an "agenda" and this statement proves it. If this is such ....I do not like to use the initials that you chose since it stands for something foul...instead I will say bologna, why stay and listen any longer? Unless of course, you have an agenda of your own. That being the case, don't criticize those who are doing the same thing that you are. At least the non-catholics aren't spreading this so called agenda on a catholic message board....

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MEE:
Just to clear up a mistake, in the above post.

Pentecostals didn't come out of the "Shakers and Holiness movement."

History of the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International)

The UPCI emerged out of the Pentecostal movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. It traces its organizational roots to October 1916, when a large group of ministers withdrew from the Assemblies of God over the doctrinal issues of the oneness of God and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. from UPCI.org

Assembly of God History
The beginning of the modern Pentecostal revival is generally traced to a prayer meeting at Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, on January 1, 1901. While many others had spoken in tongues previously during almost every period of spiritual revival, most researchers agree it was here that recipients of the experience, through study of the Scriptures, came to believe speaking in tongues is the biblical evidence for the baptism in the Holy Spirit.from ag.org

~Lorelei

 

[neal4christ]

While your stripe of Christianity forms a new church with unique teachings virtually everyday.

Could you please offer some support for your claim that you made? Or were you just grossly overexaggerating? I believe I have already pointed out that the over-inflated numbers that have been tossed around are misleading, at best. Of course, that won't stop the false claims, will it? If you are going to point out that someone else's history is wrong, at least get yours right.

Neal

 

[Ray Berrian]

Grace Saves,

His grace is a superlative reality and I'm glad you have found Christ.

You did, however, say, 'Ray said that Alexandrian scholars relied "strictly" on the allegorical method, and that the Church adopted this.'

You would be wise to check out the reality of what I am saying about Alexandrian scholarship. I have read many portions of their interpretations, and they wrongfully destroyed much of the Word of God.

You said, 'If he believes that, good for him;'

Ray is saying, 'You see, when you get to the deeper layers of Catholicism you realize that the only trustworthy foundational stone is Jesus Christ and His words. [I Corinthians 3:11 & Isaiah 28:16 for starters]

You said, 'I guess darkness is easier on the eyes than the Sun of Righteousness (purposeful Scriptural reference to the LORD God in the Old Testament,'

Ray is saying, 'We accept the fact that the Holy Spirit is our Teacher [John 14:26 & I John 2:26] This anointing was for all of God's people and not merely old, cardinals who make up the popes favorite and favored prelates. This Magisterium have speculated too long for Catholics who are spoon fed this chilling error. All spiritual truth must come from the penned words and manuscripts that include all of His words of enlightenment for Christian believers. The Lord is not going to give new truth through speculative clergy, when before they were born He said, "No more add-on Roman Catholic theology," [Revelation 22:18] or any other cultic teaching like the Book of Mormon or Keys to the Scriptures. When you Catholics assimilate all of His truth in the Bible you may have to review your church dogma, and then ship it back to the Vatican where it came from originally. Sometime look at how much Scripture I and others use to back up our statements, and then watch your Catholic posters Scriptural support references.

You said, ' . . . even though apparently anything that remotely looks like the sun is pagan).'

Ray is saying, 'Actually, the sun is one of the things that Jesus Christ created for our benefit. It keeps this earth and us warm and provides what we need to grow our fruit and vegetables. You are correct, however, that some people have worshiped the sun as though it were a sun god.

Regards . . .

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
Just to clear up a mistake, in the above post.

Pentecostals didn't come out of the "Shakers and Holiness movement."

History of the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International)

The UPCI emerged out of the Pentecostal movement that began in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. It traces its organizational roots to October 1916, when a large group of ministers withdrew from the Assemblies of God over the doctrinal issues of the oneness of God and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. from UPCI.org

Assembly of God History
The beginning of the modern Pentecostal revival is generally traced to a prayer meeting at Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, on January 1, 1901. While many others had spoken in tongues previously during almost every period of spiritual revival, most researchers agree it was here that recipients of the experience, through study of the Scriptures, came to believe speaking in tongues is the biblical evidence for the baptism in the Holy Spirit.from ag.org

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]Lorelei, we are not talking about 'organizations.' The UPCI is just another organization, not the Church, which I might add that I'm not a member.

The NT Church was born on the Day of Pentecost!

Joel 2:28-29

28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those day will I pour out my spirit.

These two scriptures prophesy about the day that God was to start to fill individuals with His Spirit, which he fulfilled in Acts 2:4 and will continue to do until He returns.

Peter referred to this second chapter of Joel in Acts 2:17, as he explained what had happened.

MEE

 

[Ray Berrian]

MEE,

It is refreshing to see someone showing the interaction of O.T. and N.T. truth, plus your faith in the future rapture of His church into Heaven.

You said, 'These two scriptures prophesy about the day that God was to start to fill individuals with His Spirit, which he fulfilled in Acts 2:4 and will continue to do until He returns.'

Just think, that Jesus is being found or people are being found of Him in our day. But, we have known this from early on in our lives that 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.' {Hebrews 13:8}

 

[Ray Berrian]

The school of theology at Alexandria pioneered the allegorical or figurative style of interpretation while the school at Antioch taught a strict literalist mode of interpretation and orthodoxy which moved in the direction of a more exacting word-for-word copying of manuscripts.

Philo, a Jewish scholar, mixed philosophy with the O.T. faith and Augustine followed in the same path of spirituality and erring thought.

Origen became a believer in the allegorical method of interpretation, which gives rise to almost any kind of belief. He believed and ' . . . promoted a belief in the preexistence of the human soul, John the Baptist was previously an angel {Dr. Menzies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers"} baptismal regeneration (beginning with sprinkling of infants) and transubstantiation, {Dr. Fisher, "Christian Doctrine" p.68} that Christ's death was paid as a ransom to Satan, {Dr. Earle E. Cairns, "Christianity Through the Centuries, p. 112.} 'to allow the new birth to be entered by a "mystical kiss, {Dr. Herbert A. Musurillo, "Fathers of the Primitive Church, p. 198.} while denying both the coming "bodily" resurrection, {Dr. Cairns, "Christianity through the Centuries, p. 112.} ' . . . and the millennial Kingdom. {Dr. Fisher, "Christian Doctrine" p. 112.}

'Because of Origen's pride he relegated the Holy Spirit to a created being.' {Dr. William P. Grady, "Final Authority" p. 93.}

All of these ideas came about because of the allegorical method of interpretation and its philosophy of 'make up the theology as you go along' concept.

Tertullian represented the literal interpretation of the holy Scriptures agreeing with the school of theology at Antioch. He said,

'I hold sure title-deeds from the original owners themselves, to whom the estate belonged. I am the heir of the apostles. Just as they carefully prepared their will and testament . . . . even so do I hold it.' {Dr. Roberts and Donaldson, "Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:261}

The Alexandrian school allowed through its allegorizing a system of theology that was and is used by Satan in inadvertently shrouding the precious Word of God. The Antioch school of theology in the second century was used by God through Tertullian to advance the correct view of things pertaining to the Lord. The Devil always has his counterfeit.

 

[Ray Berrian]

'St. Augustine was inhaled into the false teaching of the Alexandrian school of theology, as he learned his theology, in part, from men like Origen and Philo. Allegorism really did have its effects on Roman Catholic theology. The beginning errors from Alexandria have corrupted the church to this very day in Protestant as well as Catholic churches. The modern Christians are paying for the sins of the ancient Alexandrian quasi-theologians.

The writings of Augustine plus the Latin Vulgate were two sources that molded Calvin's thoughts into what he expressed in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion." Fluent in Latin, Calvin had long used that corrupted translation of the Bible, which, since its composition by Jerome at the beginning of the fifth century, was the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church. It was redeclared by the Council of Trent 1546 when Calvin was 37 years old. More than that, its influence reached into Protestant circles.

'For more than 1,000 years the Vulgate dominated all of Western Europe. All commentaries were based on the Vulgate text and preachers based their sermons on it.' (David Schaff, "Our Father's Faith and Ours" p. 172.

Samuel Berger called the Vulgate "the most vulgarized and basterdized text imaginable.' (Dr. Samuel Fisk, "Calvinistic Paths Retraced" Biblical Evangelism Press, 1985, p. 68.

Fisk reminds us: Well-known examples of far-reaching errors include the whole system of Catholic "penance," drawn from the Vulgate's "do penance" . . . when the Latin should have followed the Greek---repent. Likewise the word "sacrament" was a mis-reading from the Vulgate of the original word for 'mystery.' Even more significant, perhaps, was the rendering of the word 'presbyter' -elder as "priest." (Samuel Fisk, "Calvinistic Paths Retraced", Biblical Evangelism Press, 1985, p. 70-75.

One does well if they bury the Latin and cling to the Greek language in understanding what Christ is really saying to His church. In other words, John's bugle sound to the church is well trumpeted to people in our day. 'Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins . . . ' [Revelation 18:4]

 

[mioque]

RAY
Origenes Adamantios (or in English Origen) happens to be the subject of the thesis I wrote to get my doctorandus degree in churchhistory. I have sweated to much on those 250 pages to look kindly upon brats who like to imply I'm lazy when the subject of Christianity in Alexandria comes up.

"Why would the people who made up the foundation stones of Catholicism, drink at so many pagan cisterns?"
Philo*, Origenes and Clemens are not foundation stones of Catholicism. The last 2 are foundation stones of both Eastern-Orthodoxy and Oriental-Orthodoxy. Augustinus is a foundation stone of both Catholicism and Protestantism.

"We accept Christians from all parts of the world, but we do not sweep under the theological rug, all their error, nor do we elevate it as being Divine truth."
And you (who is that we you use at the start of this quote?) are absolutely right in doing so. However, your first post on this thread is a strong condemnation of all forms of Christianity influenced by Origenes and Augustinus, all of Christianity, with the exception of some groups originating in the Englishspeaking sections of this earth (for example the JW's) are influenced by one or both of these 2 men (or in Origen's case ex-man).

"This is one of the reasons why evangelicals believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture "
The other is the American tendency to read any text no matter how symbolical like it is a vcr manual.

"Try not to be so open minded that you swallow everything you hear; it does not automatically make you bright, or an intellectual. "
You are absolutely right.
My education made me an intellectual.

I would never describe myself as bright.


*Philo who is in a sense the father of the allegorical method of explaining the Bible was a Jew and not a Christian.