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The scriptural and contextual reading of Lydia's heart

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George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

This is a classic case of resonance whereby we read something into the text because its tenor resonates with our mental framing:

What the verse says
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God,
How the Calvinist mind reads it
who worshipped God in vain because she was yet unregenerated

What the verse says
heard us:
How the Calvinist mind reads it
who did not truly hear us because she was yet unregenerated

What the verse says
whose heart the Lord opened,
How the Calvinist mind reads it
whom God arbitrarily, suddenly, and monergistically regenerated

What the verse says
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
How the Calvinist mind reads it
so that she now had an ear able to effectually hear the gospel

This can only be resolved by cold, clinical observation about the verse:
· It does not say she worshipped God in vain
· It does not say she prayed in vain
· It does not say that God regenerated her.
· It does not say when exactly God opened her heart.
· It does not specify how God opened her heart.
· It does not say why God opened her heart.
· It does not say that God opened her heart unconditionally.
· It does not say that God opened her heart to believe.
· It does not say that that’s how God deals with every man.
· It does not say what things were being spoken of Paul.

 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
I believe Lydia was regenerated when she heard Paul/Us since to hear Spiritually requires regeneration,

Acts 16:14

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

John wrote 1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jesus also said Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So being regenerated she heard Gods words from His servants and God gave her understanding !
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
I believe Lydia was regenerated when she heard Paul/Us since to hear Spiritually requires regeneration,

Acts 16:14

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

John wrote 1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jesus also said Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So being regenerated she heard Gods words from His servants and God gave her understanding !
Click to expand...

Provisionists believe those verses just as much as you do.
I know what you believe as a Calvinist, I was one myself.
We are trying to stick to the context without inserting anything external.
I simply stated what the text does not say. Your appeal to 1John 4:6 and John 8:47 confirms that Acts 16:11-14 does not say that God regenerated Lydia's heart.
Of course, that is not to say that we should not appeal to other scriptures, quite the contrary.
But then we can apply the same clinical analysis to the verses you quoted:
they say nothing of regeneration. Nor do they define what of God means. So you are back to square 1.
 
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DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
@George Antonios . I listened to part of your video but haven't had time to listen to all of it yet. But thanks for putting it up. I have often wondered if we don't mix up regeneration with other work of the Holy Spirit. But having said that, I read Calvin's take on Lydia in both the "Institutes" and in his verse by verse commentary. Calvin doesn't seem to make all the claims you say Calvinists make concerning that passage. True, he does not shy away from the idea that we can never receive anything from God unless given to us by the Holy Spirit. This applies to our daily walk and perseverance as well as our initial salvation. But Calvin seemed to have no issue with Lydia already being a godly woman and already being willing to do God's will to the extent she knew it. In fact, in both things I read, Calvin's main thrust in discussing these verses was to make the point that even though we can receive nothing from God without His Holy Spirit - we still have to have his Word taught. Calvin's main point was to emphasize the importance of the preaching of the word. Calvin never suggested that Lydia was in any way odious in the sight of God before her encounter with the gospel but in fact he seemed to think that this was part of God's favor on her.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
Provisionists believe those verses just as much as you do.
I know what you believe as a Calvinist, I was one myself.
We are trying to stick to the context without inserting anything external.
I simply stated what the text does not say. Your appeal to 1John 4:6 and John 8:47 confirms that Acts 16:11-14 does not say that God regenerated Lydia's heart.
Of course, that is not to say that we should not appeal to other scriptures, quite the contrary.
But then we can apply the same clinical analysis to the verses you quoted:
they say nothing of regeneration. Nor do they define what of God means. So you are back to square 1.
Click to expand...
They imply and confirm that she was regenerated.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
george

. Nor do they define what of God means. So you are back to square 1.
Click to expand...

Of God means born of God Jn 1:13

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jn 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The word of is the prep ek which means:
  1. out of, from, by, away from


    ek; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):

  1. Regeneration is being born out of God.

  1. Besides, whats the opposite of being of God, not of God
Jn 8:47

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

1 Jn 4:3,6

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,


We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Lydia was regenerated in order to hear Gods word.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
@George Antonios . I listened to part of your video but haven't had time to listen to all of it yet. But thanks for putting it up. I have often wondered if we don't mix up regeneration with other work of the Holy Spirit. But having said that, I read Calvin's take on Lydia in both the "Institutes" and in his verse by verse commentary. Calvin doesn't seem to make all the claims you say Calvinists make concerning that passage. True, he does not shy away from the idea that we can never receive anything from God unless given to us by the Holy Spirit. This applies to our daily walk and perseverance as well as our initial salvation. But Calvin seemed to have no issue with Lydia already being a godly woman and already being willing to do God's will to the extent she knew it. In fact, in both things I read, Calvin's main thrust in discussing these verses was to make the point that even though we can receive nothing from God without His Holy Spirit - we still have to have his Word taught. Calvin's main point was to emphasize the importance of the preaching of the word. Calvin never suggested that Lydia was in any way odious in the sight of God before her encounter with the gospel but in fact he seemed to think that this was part of God's favor on her.
Click to expand...

You have a very very very limited view of what Calvin said brother. Calvin said a whole whack more than that.
But that is beside the point. Did you get to the (early) part where I quote John Gill's commentary on the passage?
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
You have a very very very limited view of what Calvin said brother. Calvin said a whole whack more than that.
But that is beside the point. Did you get to the (early) part where I quote John Gill's commentary on the passage?
Click to expand...
Well let me ask you this. Calvin said "Wherefore, we see that not faith alone, but all understanding and knowledge of spiritual things, is the peculiar gift of God, and that the ministers do no good by teaching and speaking unless the inward calling of God be thereunto added". He's talking about Lydia here. You wouldn't have any problem with that statement, would you?

Regarding Gill, I'm not that familiar with him. I haven't avoided him, just haven't got to read much of him. People say he's hyper.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
Prove that from Acts 16.
Click to expand...
I already did. She heard Paul Acts 16:14

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

The hearing of the word of God, scripture says 1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jesus said in order to hear Gods words one must be of God Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
Well let me ask you this. Calvin said "Wherefore, we see that not faith alone, but all understanding and knowledge of spiritual things, is the peculiar gift of God, and that the ministers do no good by teaching and speaking unless the inward calling of God be thereunto added". He's talking about Lydia here. You wouldn't have any problem with that statement, would you?
Click to expand...

I would have a problem with that. As written, that is unscriptural. There is no "inward calling of God" as Calvinistically understood. Maybe my study of this will at least help explain why I say this:

 
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George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
I already did. She heard Paul Acts 16:14

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

The hearing of the word of God, scripture says 1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jesus said in order to hear Gods words one must be of God Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Click to expand...

Could you please define "of God" with scriptures?
 
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DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
I would have a problem with that. As written, that is unscriptural. There is no "inward calling of God" as Calvinistically understood. Maybe my study of this will at least help explain why I say this:
Click to expand...
If you think that is a problem then I think you go too far. But there is a lot of overlap which most of the radical Calvinists on here won't acknowledge. Please indulge a lengthy quote. You owe it to me as I listened to your whole video. It's very well done by the way.
" A diligent intension of mind, in attendance on the means of grace, to understand and receive the things revealed and declared
as the mind and will of God. For this end hath God given men their reasons and understandings, that they may use and
exercise them about their duty towards him, according to the revelation of his mind and will. To this purpose he calls upon them
to remember that they are men, and to turn unto him. And there is nothing herein but what is in the liberty and power of the
rational faculties of our souls, assisted with those common aids which God affords to all men in general....Persons, I say who
diligently apply their rational abilities in and about spiritual things, as externally revealed in the word, and the preaching of it, do
usually attain great advantage by it, and excel their equals in other things; as Paul did when he was brought up at the feet of
Gamaliel. Would men be but as intent and diligent in their endeavours after knowledge in spiritual things, as revealed in a way
suited unto our capacities and understands, as they are to get skill in crafts, sciences, and other mysteries of life, it would be
much otherwise with many than it is. A neglect herein also is the fruit of sensuality, spiritual sloth, love of sin and contempt of
God; all of which are the voluntary frames and actings of the minds of men." John Owen Works of the Holy Spirit Chapter 2

Owen didn't minimize the importance of the Holy Spirit's internal work. But neither did he deny the actual responsibility of men before God. He did not teach the chance "light switch" mentality that you see in some modern Calvinist teaching. He said that the internal acts of the Holy Spirit on men will be through their rational minds. That is why I don't get too upset with my non-Calvinist friends who insist that they used their reason and choice to come to Christ. They did. I just happen to believe that the Holy Spirit was already at work using a lot of means - to bring them to salvation and belief, which they have to do.

Also, your lengthy description of Pharoah first hardening his own heart before God finally and judicially stepped in is well accepted and frequently taught in Reformed Baptist circles. And the Puritans frequently taught that indulging in known, small sins and not repenting is what often leads a person, saved or not, to greater, more heinous sins, beyond their control or plan. My point is just that on a practical level I think there is a lot of overlap.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I tried to get cute with the spacing and ended up with what you see above. I hope it's still readable.
 
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