In your mind what exactly is a 'radical Calvinist'? I'm assuming they're the same as the Calvinist 'vandals' you referred to on another thread.
Is a 'radical Calvinist' anything other than the 'milquetoast Calvinist' that you are? Is that it?
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The scriptural and contextual reading of Lydia's heart
- Thread starter George Antonios
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In your mind what exactly is a 'radical Calvinist'? I'm assuming they're the same as the Calvinist 'vandals' you referred to on another thread.
Is a 'radical Calvinist' anything other than the 'milquetoast Calvinist' that you are? Is that it?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, and thank you, but for the record, I find you a reasonable man and enjoy engaging with you.
If you think that is a problem, then I also think you go too far.
Amen, however,
There is no such thing in Calvinism when Calvinism is properly understood.
All means are insufficient and therefore ineffectual.
The only effectual agency is the Calvinistic internal work of God in flipping the light switch.
It may be co-temporal with the means, but the means are certainly not causal.
Calvinism's claim that God ordains the means is a moot point for even if the unregenerate hear the gospel expounded, they cannot understand it because they are dead. That means they must be regenerated before understanding the gospel in order to understand the gospel to begin with. So you are not saved by the gospel, you only get to understand it after you’ve already been regenerated without it. Hearing the gospel has ZERO causal effect on regeneration.
There is no such thing as Calvinistically understood.
A distinction without a difference because, again, "internal acts" is, as is typical of Calvinistic speak, oh-so-conveniently vague. Without libertarian free will, all the reasoning power of men is a moot point.
It's the Spirit exhaustively causing the reasoning.
Your light-switch Calvinist friends are at least consistent, my friend.
That depends by what you mean by "judicially stepped in".
And again, distinctions without a difference.
In Calvinism, Pharaoh's behaviour is exhaustively pre-programmed of God, every thought, every reaction, the gradual rejection, all of it, is causally determined of God.
Distinctions without a difference.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
George, I appreciate you taking the time for thoughtful replies. I think sometimes the quick replies that a format like this requires just isn't enough to explore some of these issues, which is why I like your videos. We disagree on a lot but one thing we do agree on:
That is very true as I have said on other threads. If you are going to go totally deterministic, as they do you don't have any logical tensions to deal with. I believe in mans actual responsibility AND in God's sovereignty and I don't believe we have an autonomous free will. But neither did the Calvinists that I look up to the most, the Puritan's, and their successors like Bonar, Ryle and Spurgeon. Just making a statement like "you have to repent and believe the gospel" triggers some on here and they immediately begin objecting that you are calling for works or have the order of salvation wrong.
I have to admit that this is a belief held by some on this board but they don't like me or Owen for that matter and have said so. I think I have also picked up a stalker so I won't reply to that on this thread and mess up what could be a good thread. Good discussion.
I have mused about this woman from Thyatira. She is the first recorded convert of Paul when he arrived in Europe. The context associates her with purple, and for good reason if one knows what is the chief export from that area. It is also one of the main colors of the Roman Catholic Church. Lydia seems to be the main leader of this group of women and was probably the teacher if any teaching was going on. No doubt she was leading the prayers. She was religious and likely a Jewish proselyte since they were meeting for prayer on the sabbath day. It seems unusual for Luke to mention "her household" and her house. Certainly women are very prominent in this chapter.
One wonders if God purposely puts the conversion to the Christian faith of Lydia from Thyatira here in Europe in order to guide us into study and meditation about another woman in this city who is mentioned in the second and final passage where this city shows up in scripture, Revelation 2. It interests me that women are associated with this city. Perhaps Jezebel had already begun her ministry before the Christian gospel arrived there and what if Lydia knew Jezebel and was under her influence. That is interesting. Of course, whoever this woman was, she likely just had the Jezebel spirit, not her actual name.
The unique thing about Thyatira, the fourth mentioned church of the seven churches in Revelation, is that more is said about that church than any other of the seven. I believe there are 12 verses describing this church. The gospel would get to that city and a church would be established there and there were some commendable things about them, but there was some corruptible things happening too. Take a look at this, remembering that idolatry is the spiritual equivalent of physical adultery.
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
This church that has the trapping of a church of Christ is corrupt and is pictured as a woman in the tribulation. One should read about her in Re 17. She is a filthy fornicating woman who has illegitimate fornicating daughters and God is going to kill her in a day, he says, in an hour.
Speaking of four, the fourth of the seven parables in Matt 13, which describes this whole present church age, beginning to end, called the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, is about a woman. Check it out.
Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Leaven is corruption and false doctrine in the scriptures and a woman teaching is a picture of something that is ethically out of place. Three measures of meal is Shem, Ham, and Japheth, a universal proposition.
One would think that Lydia was probably a great influence for the gospel in her city after her heart was opened to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
One wonders if God purposely puts the conversion to the Christian faith of Lydia from Thyatira here in Europe in order to guide us into study and meditation about another woman in this city who is mentioned in the second and final passage where this city shows up in scripture, Revelation 2. It interests me that women are associated with this city. Perhaps Jezebel had already begun her ministry before the Christian gospel arrived there and what if Lydia knew Jezebel and was under her influence. That is interesting. Of course, whoever this woman was, she likely just had the Jezebel spirit, not her actual name.
The unique thing about Thyatira, the fourth mentioned church of the seven churches in Revelation, is that more is said about that church than any other of the seven. I believe there are 12 verses describing this church. The gospel would get to that city and a church would be established there and there were some commendable things about them, but there was some corruptible things happening too. Take a look at this, remembering that idolatry is the spiritual equivalent of physical adultery.
Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
This church that has the trapping of a church of Christ is corrupt and is pictured as a woman in the tribulation. One should read about her in Re 17. She is a filthy fornicating woman who has illegitimate fornicating daughters and God is going to kill her in a day, he says, in an hour.
Speaking of four, the fourth of the seven parables in Matt 13, which describes this whole present church age, beginning to end, called the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, is about a woman. Check it out.
Mt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Leaven is corruption and false doctrine in the scriptures and a woman teaching is a picture of something that is ethically out of place. Three measures of meal is Shem, Ham, and Japheth, a universal proposition.
One would think that Lydia was probably a great influence for the gospel in her city after her heart was opened to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
What was it that opened Lydia's heart. It must have been at least somewhat closed before, or otherwise it could not be said to have been opened.
Was it Lydia who opened her own heart? No,
Was it Paul's preaching that opened her heart? No.
'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'
What can we draw from that? That it was necessary for the Lord to open her heart in order for her to heed the things spoken by Paul. Otherwise it would have remained closed. I think that's a fair deduction.
Now, was Lydia already saved? The text doesn't tell us. What it tells us is that she was a 'God-worshipper' or 'God-fearer.' These terms are used for Gentiles who had given up on the old Greek and Roman gods and attended the local synagogue. They were not converts and were sat apart from the Jews, but listened to the preaching. The one matter they would never have heard about was concerning the Lord Jesus.
They appear several times in Acts: in Acts of the Apostles 13:16, and probably in 17:4 referring to 'devout Greeks' in the synagogue. Most of Paul's converts came from this group.
But I want to look particularly at Cornelius. We read that he was 'a devout man who feared God...' He was a 'God-fearer. He did lots of good works and prayed to God 'always.' So was he saved? No. He had never heard of the Lord Jesus Christ, so how could he be? 'Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.' But the Scripture also tells us. Acts of the Apostles 11:13-14. '.....Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved,'
If Cornelius, with all his good works and prayers could not be saved without hearing about Jesus, how could Lydia? But neither she nor Cornelius could have been saved unless the Lord had opened their hearts to heed the things spoken by Peter and Paul.
John 6:44 would seem to apply.
Was it Lydia who opened her own heart? No,
Was it Paul's preaching that opened her heart? No.
'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'
What can we draw from that? That it was necessary for the Lord to open her heart in order for her to heed the things spoken by Paul. Otherwise it would have remained closed. I think that's a fair deduction.
Now, was Lydia already saved? The text doesn't tell us. What it tells us is that she was a 'God-worshipper' or 'God-fearer.' These terms are used for Gentiles who had given up on the old Greek and Roman gods and attended the local synagogue. They were not converts and were sat apart from the Jews, but listened to the preaching. The one matter they would never have heard about was concerning the Lord Jesus.
They appear several times in Acts: in Acts of the Apostles 13:16, and probably in 17:4 referring to 'devout Greeks' in the synagogue. Most of Paul's converts came from this group.
But I want to look particularly at Cornelius. We read that he was 'a devout man who feared God...' He was a 'God-fearer. He did lots of good works and prayed to God 'always.' So was he saved? No. He had never heard of the Lord Jesus Christ, so how could he be? 'Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.' But the Scripture also tells us. Acts of the Apostles 11:13-14. '.....Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved,'
If Cornelius, with all his good works and prayers could not be saved without hearing about Jesus, how could Lydia? But neither she nor Cornelius could have been saved unless the Lord had opened their hearts to heed the things spoken by Peter and Paul.
John 6:44 would seem to apply.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You need to help yourself and read what I have posted. I read what you posted without your help
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Listen to what ? You made a statement, I listened to that, please show us in scripture where it says there is no such thing as a inward call. Would not the call of God be to the heart of a person ?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
There is no way to avoid the tension. The system is self-refuting.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I agree with that part. But I say that you are faced with the same problem. If the Holy Spirit has no part in operation on the person being saved then you are going to have a problem with some verses. Even the one where Lydia's heart was opened. That is there and it must mean something. Even if you concede that it is not referring to regeneration.
I agree that God works in many ways to get a person saved. And when I refer to means I mean all of it. It could be that chance meeting of a friend who "happens" to take you to a place where you hear the gospel. Or maybe you "by chance" find a tract on a table at a diner. Maybe you are flipping through radio channels and find a sermon. In addition, do you not think that the Holy Spirit actually works on the individuals who do hear the gospel and are saved? I was not a Calvinist most of my life. But I remember the premium many of my pastors put on praying that the Holy Spirit would be upon them when they preached or else they thought no good could come from their preaching. Before we would go out soul winning we would pray that God would touch the hearts of people we would visit.
I agree that there are branches of Calvinism that are so deterministic that they do insist on regeneration operating as a light switch without any regard to other work by the Holy Spirit either directly or even through events and even without the gospel. But for most of us that is not the case and I think there is a lot of overlap. At any rate, I think that if you believe that the Holy Spirt "helps" at all, and that help is decisive, then you have the same logical problem I have in that you have man being responsible to believe and it all ultimately being the work of God.
If you believe that this can totally be done by human reason and logic, even if you believe the word of God is necessary, you still have a problem. The word of God, as the word of God, is from the Holy Spirit and thus it's no stretch to say that the Holy Spirit is actually working on the person hearing the word. Or, you go so far that only the truth of the statements is necessary, that the information regarding your condition and the remedy for it is needed, along with your powers of reason - and you have a pretty radical theology. I don't think you go that far, but what I'm saying is that at some point you have to admit that the direct work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a person is essential for them to be saved. That is a tension you have to face.
One must keep his mind open to the possibility that Lydia became the Jezebel of Thyatira that is mentioned in Re 2 and the leaven that began to be hid in the three loaves by this woman of the fourth parable and at that time in human history and finds it's total corruption and consequential judgement of God in Revelation 17. Leaven works slowly but it corrupts completely.
I am not advocating at this time that Lydia herself is Jezebel but I know that all scriptures have a prophetic quality. If God wants to give us light through his typical teachings where one thing represents another, we should not close our eyes to it. The author of the op is correct. There is no clear conversion of Lydia in the text like in other texts where the language does not leave us wondering.
I remind everyone here that history informs us that there was a "queen of heaven" in the Babylonian religion founded by Nimrod after the flood. She is pictured as a great big woman with a little bitty illegitimate son. This woman has not gone away. She is mystery Babylon.
I am not advocating at this time that Lydia herself is Jezebel but I know that all scriptures have a prophetic quality. If God wants to give us light through his typical teachings where one thing represents another, we should not close our eyes to it. The author of the op is correct. There is no clear conversion of Lydia in the text like in other texts where the language does not leave us wondering.
I remind everyone here that history informs us that there was a "queen of heaven" in the Babylonian religion founded by Nimrod after the flood. She is pictured as a great big woman with a little bitty illegitimate son. This woman has not gone away. She is mystery Babylon.
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I am interested in your theory and would probably agree with you on this. However, understanding and believing are not the same things. You would agree with that, eh?
At this point in my sojourning I am not deeply set on the doctrine of Lydia. I can be convinced by a good scriptural presentation given in context and by using the words God has given us. One liners expressing opinions, which is the norm for this message board, is not going to suffice for me.
If you have something, take your time and present it to the rest of us and let us consider it..
@George Antonios and @Martin Marprelate
Moderator Note: I tried to "fix" this post - it was the best I could do. Scarlett O.
George: This can only be resolved by cold, clinical observation about the verse:
Martin: I agree. But it will not be resolved by you putting words into the mouths of Calvinists so that you can refute them.
George: It does not say she worshipped God in vain
Martin: Did she know Christ? If she didn't, her worship could not save her. John 8:24 etc.
George: It does not say she prayed in vain
Martin: Did she know Christ? If she didn't, her prayers could not save her. John 14:13-14.
George: It does not say that God regenerated her.
Martin: John 3:3-6; Ephesians 2:1-10.
George: It does not say when exactly God opened her heart.
Martin: It was plainly before or during Paul's talk, because otherwise she wouldn't have heeded him. BTW, what do you think Paul was saying? Why not let him tell you? Acts of the Apostles 26:22
George: It does not specify how God opened her heart.
Martin: I cannot tell you that, but I know it required the same power that raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. Ephesians 1:19-20.
George: It does not say why God opened her heart.
Martin: It does. '......To heed the things spoken by Paul,' From which we may deduce that unless He had done so she would not have heeded them.
George: It does not say that God opened her heart unconditionally.
Martin: The text does not speak of conditions. What Biblical basis do you have to suppose that there may have been any. He opened her heart. Full stop.
George: It does not say that God opened her heart to believe.
Martin: If she didn't believe, she sure fooled Paul, because he baptized her. 'If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord........'
George: It does not say that that’s how God deals with every man.
Martin: John 6:44.
George: It does not say what things were being spoken of Paul.
Martin: Acts of the Apostles 26:22-23. Or do you think he was talking about the weather? All through Acts, we are told that the Apostles (not just Paul) preached Christ.
Moderator Note: I tried to "fix" this post - it was the best I could do. Scarlett O.
George: This can only be resolved by cold, clinical observation about the verse:
Martin: I agree. But it will not be resolved by you putting words into the mouths of Calvinists so that you can refute them.
George: It does not say she worshipped God in vain
Martin: Did she know Christ? If she didn't, her worship could not save her. John 8:24 etc.
George: It does not say she prayed in vain
Martin: Did she know Christ? If she didn't, her prayers could not save her. John 14:13-14.
George: It does not say that God regenerated her.
Martin: John 3:3-6; Ephesians 2:1-10.
George: It does not say when exactly God opened her heart.
Martin: It was plainly before or during Paul's talk, because otherwise she wouldn't have heeded him. BTW, what do you think Paul was saying? Why not let him tell you? Acts of the Apostles 26:22
George: It does not specify how God opened her heart.
Martin: I cannot tell you that, but I know it required the same power that raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. Ephesians 1:19-20.
George: It does not say why God opened her heart.
Martin: It does. '......To heed the things spoken by Paul,' From which we may deduce that unless He had done so she would not have heeded them.
George: It does not say that God opened her heart unconditionally.
Martin: The text does not speak of conditions. What Biblical basis do you have to suppose that there may have been any. He opened her heart. Full stop.
George: It does not say that God opened her heart to believe.
Martin: If she didn't believe, she sure fooled Paul, because he baptized her. 'If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord........'
George: It does not say that that’s how God deals with every man.
Martin: John 6:44.
George: It does not say what things were being spoken of Paul.
Martin: Acts of the Apostles 26:22-23. Or do you think he was talking about the weather? All through Acts, we are told that the Apostles (not just Paul) preached Christ.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
What the verse says
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God,
How the Calvinist mind reads it
who worshipped God in vain because she was yet unregenerated
Right. She had knowledge of how to 'worship the True God', externally, vs those who worshipped idols, etc., although her heart had yet to have been opened by God, to know Him, internally, in salvation, as follows in context.
Gill: "he true God, the God of Israel, and not the gods of the Gentiles, among whom she was; which shows, that she was either a Jewish woman, who had knowledge of the one true and living God, or at least a proselytess of the Jewish religion:"
Romans 1:18; "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Lydia went through the motions of 'worshipping' God, but, with the other women, "their foolish heart was darkened."
22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
...
What the verse says
heard us:
How the Calvinist mind reads it
who did not truly hear us because she was yet unregenerated
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17.
In context, Pual's instruction and intention was to preach the gospel.
Acts 16:10; "And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them."
13 "And on the sabbath, we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither."
What are we to believe that Paul spoke to the women about?
The result was that God opened Lydis's heart.
Romans 1:16; "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Jeremiah 6:10-21; Jeremiah 25:15-33; Jonah 1:4-10; Acts 27:13-26)
...
What the verse says
whose heart the Lord opened,
How the Calvinist mind reads it
whom God arbitrarily, suddenly, and monergistically regenerated
Not 'arbitrarily', by any means, Biblically speaking.
More like;
Romans 8:29
"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30
"And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."
Ephesians 1:5;
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Ephesians 1:11
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
monergistically; God worked through the Holy Spirit to bring about salvation in Lydia, as an individual, through the spiritual regeneration of the New Birth, which He worked in her, in concert with the preaching of the Gospel.
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29b.
That is what God does. He saves lost souls through His Word and the Holy Spirit.
What the verse says
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
How the Calvinist mind reads it
so that she now had an ear able to effectually hear the gospel
She was a saved child of God, then.
Her soul had been Quickened from the dead.
Lydia was made Alive with Christ.
Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
"
8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Lydia began doing good works, as "his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works".
"that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul,"
and those things she attended to were those that
"God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
con't
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God,
How the Calvinist mind reads it
who worshipped God in vain because she was yet unregenerated
Right. She had knowledge of how to 'worship the True God', externally, vs those who worshipped idols, etc., although her heart had yet to have been opened by God, to know Him, internally, in salvation, as follows in context.
Gill: "he true God, the God of Israel, and not the gods of the Gentiles, among whom she was; which shows, that she was either a Jewish woman, who had knowledge of the one true and living God, or at least a proselytess of the Jewish religion:"
Romans 1:18; "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Lydia went through the motions of 'worshipping' God, but, with the other women, "their foolish heart was darkened."
22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
...
What the verse says
heard us:
How the Calvinist mind reads it
who did not truly hear us because she was yet unregenerated
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17.
In context, Pual's instruction and intention was to preach the gospel.
Acts 16:10; "And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them."
13 "And on the sabbath, we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither."
What are we to believe that Paul spoke to the women about?
The result was that God opened Lydis's heart.
Romans 1:16; "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Jeremiah 6:10-21; Jeremiah 25:15-33; Jonah 1:4-10; Acts 27:13-26)
...
What the verse says
whose heart the Lord opened,
How the Calvinist mind reads it
whom God arbitrarily, suddenly, and monergistically regenerated
Not 'arbitrarily', by any means, Biblically speaking.
More like;
Romans 8:29
"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30
"And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."
Ephesians 1:5;
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Ephesians 1:11
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
monergistically; God worked through the Holy Spirit to bring about salvation in Lydia, as an individual, through the spiritual regeneration of the New Birth, which He worked in her, in concert with the preaching of the Gospel.
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29b.
That is what God does. He saves lost souls through His Word and the Holy Spirit.
What the verse says
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
How the Calvinist mind reads it
so that she now had an ear able to effectually hear the gospel
She was a saved child of God, then.
Her soul had been Quickened from the dead.
Lydia was made Alive with Christ.
Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
"8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Lydia began doing good works, as "his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works".
"that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul,"
and those things she attended to were those that
"God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
con't
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
This can only be resolved by cold, clinical observation about the verse:
· It does not say she worshipped God in vain
It doesn't say God accepted her worship.
· It does not say she prayed in vain
It doesn't say God answered 'her prayers'.
· It does not say that God regenerated her.
It says, "whose heart the Lord opened",
· It does not say when exactly God opened her heart.
How about how it says when God opened her heart?, in context?
· It does not specify how God opened her heart.
If this is your house rule and an essential requirement, of God, to explain His entire Eternal Plan and Work of salvation in every occurrence of the New Birth, then you'll have to talk to Him about that.
· It does not say why God opened her heart.
I think she would tell you that the Righteousness of God Jesus acquired Perfectly under the Law, was nailed to the cross, because of her lack of righteousness she was enabled to own and know that she was lost.
Romans 1:18; "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
Romans 1:16; "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
· It does not say that God opened her heart unconditionally.
Doesn't have to. It's everywhere throughout the entire scriptures.
· It does not say that God opened her heart to believe.
Come on, George.
· It does not say that that’s how God deals with every man.
Doesn't have to. It's everywhere throughout the entire scriptures, regarding how God saves souls.
That is all The Doctrines of Grace are, is a description of Christianity, regarding how God saves souls.
· It does not say what things were being spoken of Paul.
Maybe, Paul was talking to those women about the difference between the Heliocentric And Geocentric Models of games in an arcade-style format!
These "cold, clinical observations" are not mixed with faith.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Nice. Thank you.
Sweet!
Amen.
A Bible verse! For believers to believe!!
44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That teaching comes from being taught of God and it denotes a regenerate person Jn 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The Spirit teaches 1 Cor 2:13-14
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So Lydia wasnt just natural, she was regenerated, spiritual
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Ok, the replies and subpoints are multiplying.
If any of you Calvinist brethren are up to it, come on my channel, "Counsel and Might" and we'll hash it out dialogically. You private message me and I'll give you my email to set it up.
https://www.youtube.com/c/drGeorgeAntonios
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
George. That's just what happens on here. You end up trying to answer 4 guys at once, each with a lengthy reply. If what you are saying is that some Calvinists make too much of the idea that everyone, including Lydia, before they are regenerated, are odious and hate God and God hates them then I agree. But I took the time to look it up and Calvin did not say that about her. You blew that off and in your video just dismissed the verses Calvinists use so what's the use of discussion? "God opened her heart" is a phrase that is obviously more than just receiving further instruction. If you don't think so then I respect that but I think you are mistaken. Also, if you really believe, which I don't think you do, that the Holy Spirit is not involved in any way in a persons salvation as in acting directly on the person then we are worlds apart theologically. If it's just a matter of saying that opening her heart was not necessarily speaking of regeneration then I don't have a problem with that.
So no, I don't want to PM you but I did go on your site and that short video about "The Pronoun People are Right" is not only funny but really makes you think. You ought to post that one.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
So you're blowing me off.
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