This study goes over the events related to the second coming in correlation to the Jewish festivals and old testament prophecies, going from the time of the opening of the sixth seal, to the time of the trumpet blasts of the seventh seal, and to the future time of the new heaven and new earth. The study can be found in English here The Second Coming, the Trumpet Blasts, the Bowls of Wrath, and Inheriting the Earth | Wisdom of God or in Spanish here La Segunda Venida, las Trompetas, las Copas de Ira y Heredando la Tierra | Sabiduria de Dios . Let us begin a discussion on this matter here.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Second Coming, the Trumpet Blasts, the Bowls of Wrath, and Inheriting the Earth
- Thread starter cgaviria
- Start date
- Status
Hello Christian, and welcome to the Forum, I hope your time here will be blessed.
He began to open the seals after his resurrection and ascension to heaven, because that is the time he became exalted to sit at the right hand of God,
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Philippians 2:9 [NIV])
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. (Romans 8:34 [ESV])
I take the view that the Seals have not yet begun to be opened yet. I also view the Judgments listed as three sets of consecutive judgments, rather than the view that all three are the same and that they are expressed differently.
But be glad to discuss it with you with what time I have available.
I would first ask if you have Scripture, other than the above, that might indicate that Christ "...began to open the seals after His Resurrection"?
Again, welcome to the Forum.
God bless.
Certainly, but before I do so, let me ask you this, what do you suppose the meaning of the first four seals are (the four horsemen)? After you give me your answer, I will give you mine and show where in scripture these four seals are referenced, and why Jesus Christ already opened them.
Certainly, but before I do so, let me ask you this, what do you suppose the meaning of the first four seals are (the four horsemen)? After you give me your answer, I will give you mine and show where in scripture these four seals are referenced, and why Jesus Christ already opened them.
It is a little difficult to have Christ opening them when they fall within the context of the Tribulation described in Revelation, which is the Day of Wrath described in numerous places in both Old and New Testament Prophecy.
So while you can show me where the first four Seals "are referenced," it isn't going to change the fact that they are opened within this seven year period, which denies that they have been opened previously.
Here are the First Four Seals and my own view of them:
Revelation 6
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
In view is conquest, which while we have seen this repeatedly throughout history (since Christ's Ascension), again, the details of Revelation are specific to this period.
The conquest in view here, because the Second Seal has a context that speaks of what is most likely war, leans towards a more political process, in my view.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
The political processes began in the first seal inevitably lead to violence (again, most likely war).
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
I believe this signifies victory on the part of the Aggressor (Antichrist), and control over the essentials of life (food, water, etc.). At this point their efforts have been successful and they likely have a global control.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The inevitable result of global conquest. One quarter of the earth's population dies at this time through, I believe, numerous means (war, starvation, disease, etc.).
Again, we can look back and see occurrences that might seem to be near to the events Revelation describes, however, we do not see events that correspond absolutely as Prophecy demands. And the events described correspond to the Prophecy described in both Old and New Testaments. For example, Daniel 12 describes a three and a half year period from the time of the Abomination of Desolation occurring, which Christ confirms was yet future in Matthew 24. Ezekiel 39 describes the Supper of the Great God, and is followed by a physical existence (not the Eternal State which follows the Millennial Kingdom).
Revelation is best understood just as it is given, a chronological order of events which describe God's judgment on this earth.
God bless.
Darrell,
I can't explain the meaning of the four seals until you unlearn the following false assumptions:
1. That there is only one tribulation period. Scriptures indicate that there are two distinct periods of tribulation, one which is the persecution of the saints, which happens shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem according to Jesus Christ and the book of Daniel, and that if those days had not been shortened "none would be saved", meaning none of the elect, hence it is why for their sake that these days are shortened. And then there is the great tribulation caused by Jesus Christ, for he comes with the sound of seven trumpets, which are plagues, and later on with the bowls of wrath, which are more plagues, which will only result in the destruction of every city in the world, but in the death of almost all humanity, and whoever comes out surviving this "great tribulation", other than the elect, will be those who dip their robes in the blood of the lamb and live in the millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ.
2. That any of these tribulation periods last seven years, which is based on the false assumption that the final week of the 490 years prophecy of Daniel for the first coming of Jesus are not "consecutive" weeks, but the last week floats around somewhere in the future, not knowing that the entire 490 years are consecutive and already fulfilled. As such, Daniel separetely indicates that the persecution of the saints is for a "time, times, and half a time", which in accordance to "time", it is derived to be one prophetic year, in which case that expression means 3 1/2 prophetic years, which translates as 1,260 literal years, which corresponds to the 42 prophetic months of Revelation of persecution of the saints at the hand of the first beast of Revelation.
I recommend you read this study, The Identity of the Antichrist, the Two Beasts of Revelation, and the Whore of Babylon | Wisdom of God . Perhaps once you unlearn these false assumptions, and come to understanding, then we can advance and talk about the first 5 seals.
As the teacher, my friend, it is up to you to teach me the truth, rather than simply say I must unlearn something. People do not "unlearn," they learn, and they only learn when they are taught.
So you will have to address the proposals I present.
There is indeed only one Tribulation that stands separate from all tribulation described in Prophecy.
That is the point of Revelation being given to us.
Christ speaks of only one event when He states this...
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Not multiple abominations of desolation, but the specific Abomination described by Daniel.
There is only one event in view at this time.
And if you don't mind, please include the Scripture referenced. It makes it a little easier than having to guess which passage you are referring to.
Here si the passage I suppose you refer to:
Matthew 24:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
When these events unfold there is a conclusion, and we can say with surety that there will be only One Return of Christ.
Again, this is a singular event which is verified in all passages referring to the Return of Christ.
Christ does not return at the sounding of the Seven/th Trumpets, but returns after all judgments have been opened. The final Bowl/Vial Judgment will be poured out, then Christ returns.
Those who embrace a Post-Tribulational Rapture often argue that this...
Revelation 11:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
describes Christ returning, which is assumed because it is said that the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord.
However, we also see a similar statement here:
Revelation 12:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Yet we see that the Tribulation is still ongoing, for the period is the time in which the Devil has come down to them, and the saints are still overcoming by the Blood of Christ.
Some distinguish the first 3 1/2 years as the Tribulation and the second 3 1/2 years as the Great Tribulation, I do not. It is true that Christ distinguishes the second half in Matthew 24 but I see this as simply making it clear that the second half is going to be worst than the first.
Need a passage speaking of saints dipping their robes. Those who have washed their robes are...dead.
Luke 17 describes those who survive the Tribulation (those who enter into the Millennial Kingdom), as does Matthew 24.
Continued...
Does Daniel refer all of this to the AD 70 event? Would say no, and also, would he be saying that all Christians suffer great tribulation, or just referring to His own people, israel/ theJews?As the teacher, my friend, it is up to you to teach me the truth, rather than simply say I must unlearn something. People do not "unlearn," they learn, and they only learn when they are taught.
So you will have to address the proposals I present.
There is indeed only one Tribulation that stands separate from all tribulation described in Prophecy.
That is the point of Revelation being given to us.
Christ speaks of only one event when He states this...
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Not multiple abominations of desolation, but the specific Abomination described by Daniel.
There is only one event in view at this time.
And if you don't mind, please include the Scripture referenced. It makes it a little easier than having to guess which passage you are referring to.
Here si the passage I suppose you refer to:
Matthew 24:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
When these events unfold there is a conclusion, and we can say with surety that there will be only One Return of Christ.
Again, this is a singular event which is verified in all passages referring to the Return of Christ.
Christ does not return at the sounding of the Seven/th Trumpets, but returns after all judgments have been opened. The final Bowl/Vial Judgment will be poured out, then Christ returns.
Those who embrace a Post-Tribulational Rapture often argue that this...
Revelation 11:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
describes Christ returning, which is assumed because it is said that the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord.
However, we also see a similar statement here:
Revelation 12:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Yet we see that the Tribulation is still ongoing, for the period is the time in which the Devil has come down to them, and the saints are still overcoming by the Blood of Christ.
Some distinguish the first 3 1/2 years as the Tribulation and the second 3 1/2 years as the Great Tribulation, I do not. It is true that Christ distinguishes the second half in Matthew 24 but I see this as simply making it clear that the second half is going to be worst than the first.
Need a passage speaking of saints dipping their robes. Those who have washed their robes are...dead.
Luke 17 describes those who survive the Tribulation (those who enter into the Millennial Kingdom), as does Matthew 24.
Continued...
It's not a false assumption, it is the only logical conclusion one can arrive at when they consider the events described in Revelation.
For example, the ministry of the Two Witnesses is 3 1/2 years:
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These two will not be harmed by those who want to harm them.
The campaign of the Beast is also 3 1/2 years:
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
It is just not possible to have these two ministries as concurrent. The Two Witnesses are killed (as well as resurrected and Raptured) at the midpoint of the Tribulation, and it is at this point that the persecution of Israel begins, during which time they are given refuge:
Revelation 12:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
This coincides with Christ's warning:
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
It is a common misconception that because only 3 1/2 year periods are mentioned that the Tribulation is only 3 1/2 years long. However, we can say with confidence that the Abomination of Desolation does not occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, and Revelation makes it clear that the Two Witnesses do not die at the end of the Tribulation, for following their deaths is the Third Woe, the Seventh Trumpet Judgment, and following those are the Seven Vial Judgments, and following that is the Return of Christ.
The events unfold and are described in simple terms in Revelation, It is when we try to make what is given with the intent of being understood into some great mysterious and confusing work understood only by those with the magic decoder ring that we see the simple made confusing.
God gave all of His Word to us with the simple intent...that we know His will. It's no different with Revelation. And when we compare Old and New Testament Prophecy we see the great harmony between the two.
Daniel speaks of the Abomination of Desolation:
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Christ spoke of the Abomination of Desolation:
Matthew 24:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Both speak of the final Week. It hasn't happened yet.
3 1/2 years does not equate to 1260 literal years.
In view are days, months, and years, and the amount of time is given in each Passage.
The Tribulation described in Revelation is Daniel's Seventieth Week.
Why read that when I have the Word of God?
As I said, people do not unlearn anything, they can only be taught what is correct, and then place the error they once embraced into a proper perspective.
God bless.
Last edited:
While some like to think it does, the fact is that the Tribulation ends with the Return of Christ, which did not take place in 70AD. What I will say is that because Prophecy does have a habit of having multiple fulfillments, I see no reason why we could not look at the events of 70 AD as having the potential of application. Not in it's final sense (i.e., Christ's coming will occur twice, yet the Prophecy applies to both), but, we could, for example, view the events as relating to the Prophecy.
In regards to the Seventieth Week, it should be remembered that the Seventy Weeks were prescribed Judgment for Daniel's People, and there is no reason to see that as any different in the Tribulation. God often judged His people for the purpose of bringing them to repentance, and that is precisely what happens in the Tribulation. All who fail to repent and believe on Christ will die, and Paul's prophecy, "...thus shall all Israel be saved," will be fulfilled at the end, for all unbelievers will perish (some after Christ returns.
The Tribulation does extend to judgment upon the entire earth, but, we cannot divorce the original Judgment from the People of Israel.
God bless.
just have a real hard time seeing that Jesus already has His Second Coming , as this is far from his messianic age, and we are still not yet glorified!
As the teacher, my friend, it is up to you to teach me the truth, rather than simply say I must unlearn something. People do not "unlearn," they learn, and they only learn when they are taught.
So you will have to address the proposals I present.
There is indeed only one Tribulation that stands separate from all tribulation described in Prophecy.
That is the point of Revelation being given to us.
Christ speaks of only one event when He states this...
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Not multiple abominations of desolation, but the specific Abomination described by Daniel.
There is only one event in view at this time.
And if you don't mind, please include the Scripture referenced. It makes it a little easier than having to guess which passage you are referring to.
Here si the passage I suppose you refer to:
Matthew 24:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
When these events unfold there is a conclusion, and we can say with surety that there will be only One Return of Christ.
Again, this is a singular event which is verified in all passages referring to the Return of Christ.
Christ does not return at the sounding of the Seven/th Trumpets, but returns after all judgments have been opened. The final Bowl/Vial Judgment will be poured out, then Christ returns.
Those who embrace a Post-Tribulational Rapture often argue that this...
Revelation 11:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
describes Christ returning, which is assumed because it is said that the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord.
However, we also see a similar statement here:
Revelation 12:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Yet we see that the Tribulation is still ongoing, for the period is the time in which the Devil has come down to them, and the saints are still overcoming by the Blood of Christ.
Some distinguish the first 3 1/2 years as the Tribulation and the second 3 1/2 years as the Great Tribulation, I do not. It is true that Christ distinguishes the second half in Matthew 24 but I see this as simply making it clear that the second half is going to be worst than the first.
Need a passage speaking of saints dipping their robes. Those who have washed their robes are...dead.
Luke 17 describes those who survive the Tribulation (those who enter into the Millennial Kingdom), as does Matthew 24.
Continued...
As part of teaching you, I am teaching you to unlearn, no different than what the apostles taught,
Stop deceiving yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world's standards, you need to become a fool to be truly wise. (1 Corinthians 3:18 [NLT])
As such, in regards to the abomination of desolation, how do you not suppose that this is related to the destruction of Jerusalem that happened shortly after the death of Jesus Christ, hence why those in "Judea are told to flee", and "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that its destruction is near"?
One of the greatest mistakes one can make is to forget what is error, particularly error that was once thought of as truth.
We remember the error in order to keep ourselves from falling into it again.
So show me in Scripture where we see instruction concerning "prophetic years?"
That is a standard created by the world, not God. And the Apostles in no wise instructed men on this wise.
First, it did not happen "shortly after the death of Christ," which, if it were to fit into how Prophecy has always been fulfilled, it would have had to have happened in the immediate 3 1/2 years.
It happened roughly 35 years later.
Secondly, we do not see, in the historical events of AD70, Christ's Return or the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, which would have also included the Prophecy of the Old Testament being fulfilled as well (i.e., end of enmity between animals and animals and man and animals, and extended life).
As I said, Revelation is best understood when we read it the same way we read Old Testament Prophecy. Just give it a chance, my friend, and you will see how it makes much more sense and fits the Biblical Pattern of Prophecy.
Here is something to consider: when Christ returns He establishes the Millennial Kingdom, so have you ever considered the extension of time beyond the 3 1/2 years given by Daniel?
Daniel 12:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
After the Abomination of Desolation there is a 3 1/2 year period, yet it is extended by 75 days.
Why?
Remember, there is no way to logically make the ministries of the Two Witnesses and the Antichrist concurrent. So we are dealing with a seven year period, which does fit with the Seventy Weeks prescribed for Israel.
Since we disagree in regards to Daniel's Prophecy, why not start with this...
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The Prophecy does not say "After 62 1/2 Weeks shall Messiah be cut off.
Two questions I would ask of you in regards to this Prophecy:
1. Who is the "prince that shall come?"
2. What Covenant does Daniel speak of?
God bless.
Darrel,
The prophecy of Daniel states,
Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. (Daniel 9:24 [ASV])
These seventy weeks are equivalent to 490 prophetic days, which correspond to 490 literal years. From the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem,
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. (Daniel 9:25 [NASB])
Which occurred somewhere around 445 BC according to Nehemiah,
Early the following spring, in the month of Nisan, during the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes’ reign, I was serving the king his wine. I had never before appeared sad in his presence. 2 So the king asked me, “Why are you looking so sad? You don’t look sick to me. You must be deeply troubled.” Then I was terrified, 3 but I replied, “Long live the king! How can I not be sad? For the city where my ancestors are buried is in ruins, and the gates have been destroyed by fire.” 4 The king asked, “Well, how can I help you?” With a prayer to the God of heaven, 5 I replied, “If it please the king, and if you are pleased with me, your servant, send me to Judah to rebuild the city where my ancestors are buried.” 6 The king, with the queen sitting beside him, asked, “How long will you be gone? When will you return?” After I told him how long I would be gone, the king agreed to my request. 7 I also said to the king, “If it please the king, let me have letters addressed to the governors of the province west of the Euphrates River, instructing them to let me travel safely through their territories on my way to Judah. 8 And please give me a letter addressed to Asaph, the manager of the king’s forest, instructing him to give me timber. I will need it to make beams for the gates of the Temple fortress, for the city walls, and for a house for myself.” And the king granted these requests, because the gracious hand of God was on me. (Nehemiah 2:1-8 [NLT])
And we have the first set of seven weeks, which are 49 literal years of the reconstruction of Jerusalem, which is documented in Nehemiah. Then we reach these 7 weeks (49 literal years) plus 62 weeks (434 literal years), which is 69 weeks (483 literal years) when the Messiah is anointed and begins his ministry. Then, in the midst of the final week, which is 3.5 literal years, Jesus Christ was killed,
"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing... (Daniel 9:26 [NASB])
And Jesus Christ confirmed his new covenant by the shedding of his own blood,
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week... (Daniel 9:27 [ESV])
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28 [ESV])
He then caused the cessation of sacrifices and offerings because he became the one sacrifice for all time,
...and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. (Daniel 9:27 [ESV])
And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
(Hebrews 10:10-11 [BSB])
In which case, after he was cut off and caused the cessation of sacrifices, his new covenant was also testified by the apostles that were sent by Jesus Christ. After the fulfillment of the 70 weeks prophecy, then came this prophecy,
And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” (Daniel 9:27 [ESV])
Which also relates to this verse,
...And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. (Daniel 9:26 [ESV])
Which relates to the destruction of Jerusalem, where both city and the sanctuary (temple) were destroyed,
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
(Matthew 24:1-2 [NIV])
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. (Luke 21:20-21 [NIV])
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Matthew 24:15-16)
As such, the abomination who causes desolation is the Roman emperor Titus, who first stood in the temple and exalted himself, and then destroyed both city and temple.
Now, the events related to Daniel to not end here, for there is another period of a "time, times, and half a time", which are related to the time of the gentiles, and the formation of the of the final heads of the first beast of Revelation and also the second beast of Revelation.
As I asked before, show me in Scripture where any instruction concerning "Prophetic Years" is found. This is a man-made doctrine necessitated by systematic theologies, not the Word of God.
The text is fairly simple, "seventy sevens" are prescribed, and we know these are periods of years based on the timeline of events following the Prophecy.
I see the timeline of events having the 62 Weeks end at Christ's death, not His anointing, but, even if that were the case, you still have the problem of the week being separated by roughly 35 years.
Now, what makes it clear that this is in error is the Prophecy itself:
Daniel 9:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Now here is what you propose:
Then, in the midst of the final week, which is 3.5 literal years, Jesus Christ was killed,
Now look above to what the Word of God actually teaches, which is that Messiah is cut off after the 62 Week period. In other words, He dies prior to the Seventieth Week.
The primary reason we know this is error is the simple fact that Christ did not establish the New Covenant...
...for one Week.
Think about that, Christian.
That is why I asked you what Covenant was in view for the Prophecy. The only reasonable conclusion to come to is that in view is the Covenant of Law. Antichrist will, in the first half of the week, strengthen the Covenant of Law and Israel will resume Temple practice. And it is in the middle of the Week that he reneges:
Daniel 9:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now, the next point you must consider is that in order for your scenario to work...
Christ would have had to established the New Covenant at the beginning of His Ministry.
And that did not happen. Not according to Scripture, and not even according to you:
And Jesus Christ confirmed his new covenant by the shedding of his own blood,
Now look at it again, and notice that the Covenant which the Antichrist strengthens is strengthened/confirmed...
...for One Week.
Continued...
Again, Sacrifice and oblation did not cease when Christ died. If we were to give an application (partial) of this Prophecy to 70AD, when the Temple was destroyed and sacrifice and oblation ceased, we still have that problem of a 35 year gap.
That does not fit with how Prophecy is fulfilled in regards to the Weeks.
Secondly, Christ honored the Law at all times. He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it, and that is what you need to consider.
That is an awful translation, lol (on this particular verse).
Do you notice that you are having to jump from translation to translation to make your doctrine sound plausible?
Better to look at the original and see how the words are used elsewhere.
Why not use the NIV?
Daniel 9:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]
Or the NASB?
Daniel 9:27
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of [a]abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who [c]makes desolate.”
The reason is they are not conducive to what you want to teach.
The picture given us is a Covenant being confirmed, or, strengthened for One Week (a period of seven years). In the middle or midst of that Week he puts a stop to sacrifice and oblation.
That is not Christ, my friend.
Furthermore, we have to deal with that second half of the Week, which begins with the Abomination of Desolation, as already shown to you. Here it is again:
Daniel 12:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
So we cannot have Christ establishing the New Covenant and then Antichrist standing in the Temple declaring himself to be God.
This fits with no Scripture...at all.
The Covenant in view is the same Covenant of Daniel's People...the Covenant of Law.
Continued...
This passage is not relevant to the discussion at hand. In this passage the Writer teaches concerning the believer, the one sanctified by Christ, being made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins. THere is nothing in the context which is relevant to when the Covenant was established.
Again, sacrifice and oblation did not cease at Christ's death.
Offerings were still being performed in ritual ceremonies by Christians long after Christ died:
Acts 21:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Now look at what you propose again:
That is not going to fit with Scripture.
Sacrifice and offering being cut off will occur in the middle of the week just as Prophecy states.
Furthermore, since you imply that the Covenant in view is the New Covenant, you logically have to conclude, to stay consistent, that it is the New Covenant that ends in the midst of the Week.
That is what is in view. Antichrist confirms the Covenant of Law for One Week, then reneges.
Well, make up your mind. Is it Christ or Antichrist who causes sacrifice and oblation to cease?
Secondly, do you really want to say that the people of Christ...destroyed the City and the Sanctuary?
I know of no historical position of Christians destroying the Temple.
By the people of the "prince to come."
Christians? They would have to be, if you make the "prince that shall come" Christ, rather than Antichrist.
Which did not happen within a seven year period. Again, roughly 35 years later.
So Titus was "the prince that shall come?"
We also consider the fact that the Prophecy only allows for 3 1/2 years for Antichrist's reign.
And here we have had almost 2000 years.
Christ has not returned.
The Millennial Kingdom has not been established.
Sorry, but the time, times, and half a time, or, 3 1/2 years, is specific to the Abomination of Desolation, and the one way we will know that this has been fulfilled is also given in Scripture:
Luke 21:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Be glad to discuss that with you as well, though I will simply point out that there is but one Tribulation Period taught in Revelation, lol.
Revelation tells us who these "heads" are.
God bless.
If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. Daniel 12:7
From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:
"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton
As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christs coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes
It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
Before Christ comes the Anti-Christ must be revealed...
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Who....
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13:16-18
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. Daniel 12:7
From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:
"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton
As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christs coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However Isaac Newton notes
It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
Before Christ comes the Anti-Christ must be revealed...
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Who....
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13:16-18
As I asked before, show me in Scripture where any instruction concerning "Prophetic Years" is found. This is a man-made doctrine necessitated by systematic theologies, not the Word of God.
The text is fairly simple, "seventy sevens" are prescribed, and we know these are periods of years based on the timeline of events following the Prophecy.
I see the timeline of events having the 62 Weeks end at Christ's death, not His anointing, but, even if that were the case, you still have the problem of the week being separated by roughly 35 years.
Now, what makes it clear that this is in error is the Prophecy itself:
Daniel 9:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Now here is what you propose:
Then, in the midst of the final week, which is 3.5 literal years, Jesus Christ was killed,
Now look above to what the Word of God actually teaches, which is that Messiah is cut off after the 62 Week period. In other words, He dies prior to the Seventieth Week.
The primary reason we know this is error is the simple fact that Christ did not establish the New Covenant...
...for one Week.
Think about that, Christian.
That is why I asked you what Covenant was in view for the Prophecy. The only reasonable conclusion to come to is that in view is the Covenant of Law. Antichrist will, in the first half of the week, strengthen the Covenant of Law and Israel will resume Temple practice. And it is in the middle of the Week that he reneges:
Daniel 9:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now, the next point you must consider is that in order for your scenario to work...
Christ would have had to established the New Covenant at the beginning of His Ministry.
And that did not happen. Not according to Scripture, and not even according to you:
And Jesus Christ confirmed his new covenant by the shedding of his own blood,
Now look at it again, and notice that the Covenant which the Antichrist strengthens is strengthened/confirmed...
...for One Week.
Continued...
Jesus Christ didn't establish his new covenant for one week, he established it in the one week, when he was cut off after the 62 weeks that come after the 7 weeks (so after the 69 weeks). As such, the covenant being referenced here is concerning Jesus Christ and his new covenant. However, the reference to the antichrist, which is the desolator, is the one who desolates Jerusalem and the temple after the 70 weeks. He is the Roman seat of authority that continued to live on and that we now know as the papacy. That seat of authority is the antichrist occupied by one man throughout those times and even until our times, who persecuted the saints for 1,260 years (time, times, and time and a half), which we came to know as the inquisitions. Although the antichrist is one man, he is not just one man, but a line of men, first as emperors, then as popes, which are all Roman and related to the fourth beast of Daniel that broke into ten kingdoms, which relates to the sixth head of the first beast of Revelation and its ten horns, that also persecutes the saints 42 months (1,260 literal years). Its pretty obvious that you are trying to force a misinterpretation of these prophecies (70 weeks of Daniel) that are clearly speaking of the events of the first coming of the messiah to be some final week in our times, but that simply isn't so. I have offered a very reasonable explanation, but you continue to refuse to come to understanding. As I said, I can't offer you much help about understanding the first five seals of Revelation unless you first unlearn the false teachings you believe.
You will be surprised to find that in the conclusion that the 1,290 literal years was reached,
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. (Daniel 12:11 [NIV])
In the time that the Dome of the Rock was constructed on the temple mount. Then, this verse,
Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. (Daniel 12:12 [NIV])
1,335 literal years from those years expires in just a few years from today. It is my belief that the coming of Jesus Christ is just a few years away. For even the final formation of the 8th head of the first beast of Revelation is underway as we speak, which is the soon to be United States of Europe.
Last edited:
- Status