the Second Death

wopik,

You said, 'Notice, Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.'

 

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, (Cloud of Witnesses) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the "Son of man", (Jesus) having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Rapture)

The "SOULS" of the dead are the "Cloud" Jesus sits on in heaven, and these "SOULS" come with Jesus to be "Re-united" with their "Glorified/Earthly Bodies", in the rapture, remember the "dead in Christ" rise "FIRST", then we which remain alive will be changed.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

Jesus comes on the "CLOUDS OF GLORY".

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;

Mr 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,

Souls of the saved are not "Dead".

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

At death (first) a persons name in the book of life is either made indelible or erased.

 

Jesus's "BLOOD" doesn't "Erase".

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,

and not be written with the righteous. (in the "lamb's book of "LIFE")

God has a "book" of all living, Jesus's book only list those "saved".

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,

having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Jesus is only paying the "Wages of "ALL OUR SINS", "ONCE", not twice.

 

I agree - we do end up on the same side of the fence a lot of times. Don't worry about this - I fully expect to find areas where I differ with almost everyone on this board at some point. I am very comfortable with that and am honored that you would take the time to share your views even if they differ with mine.

So please continue.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Heaven was never empty. At one point only the Trinity was there - but then they created the Angels and then ... intelligent life on other worlds including our own.

Phil 1 does argue that from the standpoint of the one dying - it appears that we are immediately in the presence of Christ. Adventists teach that same thing - but we say it is in the context of the John 14 and 1Thess 4 promise about HOW the saints are "WITH the Lord". In both cases the mechanism is the resurrection at the "Coming of the Lord".

Actually it says that we have two bodies in sequence. The first is this earthly tent and the second is our heavenly eternal body.

Exactly two.

Not three.

1Cor 15 Paul already told the church of Corinth WHEN we get that second body. When we put on immortalilty and he shows this to be at the resurrection.

Absolutely! Our resurrected bodies will be physical just as He was at HIS resurrection. Paul makes this point first in 1Cor 15 and then again in 2Cor 5. We believe He was physically - bodily resurrected.

True - but then "He is God". He walked on water while "in this life" is it your contention that He "was given a body with the attributes that could walk on water"??

I am thinking that "as God" He manifest some "Ability" here and does so in heaven - that we will not have.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There are a number of churches that reject the idea of OSAS including Lutherans. If your argument is that all churches are a cult if they do not accept OSAS - then you are painting with a broad brush indeed.

Walter Martin did not use that broad a brush -

Usually the dividing line has something to do with rejection of the Trinity or rejection of Salvation by Grace or rejection of scripture as the infallible standard and source for doctrine.

And on all three counts the Adventist come in on the orthodox side of the fence. But I suppose anyone could "draw their own line". I am not discounting that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"IF" we were charged with a sin after being saved, the only way the wages of that sin could be paid would be the same way required to save us in the beginning, "JESUS DYING".

And we know Jesus isn't dying again for any more sins.

OT Saints made sacrifices and their sins were "Forgiven", but not "TAKEN AWAY" until Jesus died fulfilling the law.

Folks are under the impression that "Forgiven sins" equal "taken aways" sins, they aren't, the law must be satisfied.

Sinning, then sacrificing/ask/receiving "forgiveness" doesn't pay the "wages of sin", as many suppose, without the shedding of blood there is no remission

In dying "ONCE", if Jesus didn't pay for "ALL OUR SINS", securing us for eternity, then no one can/will be saved, because "ALL" continues to sin after being saved.

One "transgression of the law" (big/little sin) would make us "guilty of transgressing "ALL" the laws".

It's obvious that "FEW" understand the function of law.

 

If you toss out God's Lev 16 model for "Atonement" and use the greek concept of "appeasement" instead - -then you would be right.

However - as it is - the NT authors repeatedly point to and warn about "Sin" among believers and charge them with the simple truth "IF God did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" Rom 11.

The NT authors never make the case "sin don't matter once you are saved" --

It is not there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

Everyone in my family believes that saved Christians can lose grace and end up in Hell. I do believe that all are saved people.

To me the most convincing verse in the Bible is found in I John 5:18. Check various evangelical commentaries and see what they tell you, especially Greek scholars.

Ray

 

I "could" keep going --

Jude 1
20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
[/quote]

Future immortality “promised”[/b] as a result of future judgment (BOTH good and bad results from that judgment)

This same focus on future judgment with reward for BOTH good and bad deeds is seen in 2Cor 5.

 

I like to say:

"Hell is one mistake no one will ever correct".

 

If you toss out God's Lev 16 model for "Atonement" and use the greek concept of "appeasement" instead - -then you would be right.

However - as it is - the NT authors repeatedly point to and warn about "Sin" among believers and charge them with the simple truth "IF God did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" Rom 11.

The NT authors never make the case "sin don't matter once you are saved" --

It is not there.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Once saved, you are not "under the law", there is "NO LAW" to condemn you.

A "Judge" can't charge you with a "crime" (sin) unless you've "transgressed a law".

"God's Legal system" works the same way as our legal system here on earth.

Jesus didn't take away the law, he took away the "SIN" which the law condemns, therefore we're not "under the law" of "death for sin".

Once saved, you're no longer under "Wrath" but "chastisement", and that chastisement can mean a "physical death", if you "stray too far".

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

I agree that as saved - born again saints we are not under the "condemnation of the law of God".

God does not declare of the saints "you are condemned to the lake of fire". Rather

But the "Saved experience" is never defined as "turned over to Satan". The "saved" gospel proomise is NOT that you "Go to hell so that you can Go to Heaven"!

In 1Cor 5:5 we see someone cast out of the church. In 2Cor 7 we see that "Same someone" returned in repentance.

There is NO "Saved in rebellion" model in fact in 1Cor 6 Paul is explicit "Do not be deceived" Said Paul regarding those who engage in sin and rebellion "SUCH will NOT inherit eternal life"!

As hard as it is to believe - God is not sponsoring rebellion against His Word AND He is not indifferent to it!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here is an example of the fall of the Jews - "a real fall" out of the real vine of Christ resulting in the REAL need to "be saved".

Notice that the warning Christ gives to us is that WE TOO should consider what happened to them for WE only stand by our faith! WE are to "Fear for if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you".

A more direct, explicit, shocking warning from God to the saints can hardly be imagined. Unless it is the one He gave in Matt 18 about "Forgiveness revoked"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

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