the Second Death

[Ray Berrian]

wopik,

You said, 'Notice, Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.'

'Did the thief on the Cross have to wait until the Second Coming to go to Heaven?

If you remember Jesus said to him, 'TODAY thou shalt be with Me in paradise.' [Luke 23:43].

Dr. Merrill C. Tenney, Ph.D., Dean of the Graduate School, Wheaton College, Illinois, in "The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, page 1,067 says,

'Paradise is an old Persian term for a park or a garden, a beauty spot (cf. II Corinthians 12:4).
This word for 'paradise' is hardly to go to sleep in a graveyard.' [/Quote from Dr. Tenney].

The word paradise is mentioned in three N.T. books of the Bible. [Luke 23:43; II Cor. 12:4; Revelation 2:7.

The Greek word is 'paradeisos' meaning 'a park, like Eden, a place of happiness.' What Adam lost in the Garden of Eden Jesus on the Cross restored Heaven above for all who believe, trust and love Him.

There was no soul sleep for the saved thief until some distant resurrection of the physical body.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Me4Him]

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, (Cloud of Witnesses) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the "Son of man", (Jesus) having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Rapture)

The "SOULS" of the dead are the "Cloud" Jesus sits on in heaven, and these "SOULS" come with Jesus to be "Re-united" with their "Glorified/Earthly Bodies", in the rapture, remember the "dead in Christ" rise "FIRST", then we which remain alive will be changed.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

Jesus comes on the "CLOUDS OF GLORY".

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;

Mr 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses,

Souls of the saved are not "Dead".

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[hillclimber]

At death (first) a persons name in the book of life is either made indelible or erased.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
At death (first) a persons name in the book of life is either made indelible or erased.

Jesus's "BLOOD" doesn't "Erase".

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,

and not be written with the righteous. (in the "lamb's book of "LIFE")

God has a "book" of all living, Jesus's book only list those "saved".

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,

having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Jesus is only paying the "Wages of "ALL OUR SINS", "ONCE", not twice.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bob Ryan,

Most often I agree with you,

I agree - we do end up on the same side of the fence a lot of times. Don't worry about this - I fully expect to find areas where I differ with almost everyone on this board at some point. I am very comfortable with that and am honored that you would take the time to share your views even if they differ with mine.

So please continue.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ray said

but II Cor. 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 indicate that Christian immediately go into the Presence of the Lord. If this were not true Heaven would only have O.T. saints and angels there. Heaven is not empty.

Heaven was never empty. At one point only the Trinity was there - but then they created the Angels and then ... intelligent life on other worlds including our own.

Phil 1 does argue that from the standpoint of the one dying - it appears that we are immediately in the presence of Christ. Adventists teach that same thing - but we say it is in the context of the John 14 and 1Thess 4 promise about HOW the saints are "WITH the Lord". In both cases the mechanism is the resurrection at the "Coming of the Lord".

Ray said
II Cor. 5:1 indicates that we have some kind of spiritual being there so we can enjoy the Presence of Jesus

Actually it says that we have two bodies in sequence. The first is this earthly tent and the second is our heavenly eternal body.

Exactly two.

Not three.

1Cor 15 Paul already told the church of Corinth WHEN we get that second body. When we put on immortalilty and he shows this to be at the resurrection.

Ray
--perhaps like the Lord had after His resurrection from the dead.

Absolutely! Our resurrected bodies will be physical just as He was at HIS resurrection. Paul makes this point first in 1Cor 15 and then again in 2Cor 5. We believe He was physically - bodily resurrected.

Ray
On the evening of the resurrection He passed through the wall and stood in the gathering of the disciples.

True - but then "He is God". He walked on water while "in this life" is it your contention that He "was given a body with the attributes that could walk on water"??

I am thinking that "as God" He manifest some "Ability" here and does so in heaven - that we will not have.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ray said
Also, when we are saved and believe in Jesus He gives sinners everlasting life at the point of their conversion to Jesus. Eternal life starts then; it is not a reward given at the judgment, because of good behavior, though we are to obey the Lord and love Him forever.

There are a number of churches that reject the idea of OSAS including Lutherans. If your argument is that all churches are a cult if they do not accept OSAS - then you are painting with a broad brush indeed.

Walter Martin did not use that broad a brush -

Usually the dividing line has something to do with rejection of the Trinity or rejection of Salvation by Grace or rejection of scripture as the infallible standard and source for doctrine.

And on all three counts the Adventist come in on the orthodox side of the fence. But I suppose anyone could "draw their own line". I am not discounting that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

"IF" we were charged with a sin after being saved, the only way the wages of that sin could be paid would be the same way required to save us in the beginning, "JESUS DYING".

And we know Jesus isn't dying again for any more sins.

OT Saints made sacrifices and their sins were "Forgiven", but not "TAKEN AWAY" until Jesus died fulfilling the law.

Folks are under the impression that "Forgiven sins" equal "taken aways" sins, they aren't, the law must be satisfied.

Sinning, then sacrificing/ask/receiving "forgiveness" doesn't pay the "wages of sin", as many suppose, without the shedding of blood there is no remission

In dying "ONCE", if Jesus didn't pay for "ALL OUR SINS", securing us for eternity, then no one can/will be saved, because "ALL" continues to sin after being saved.

One "transgression of the law" (big/little sin) would make us "guilty of transgressing "ALL" the laws".

It's obvious that "FEW" understand the function of law.

 

[BobRyan]

Me4Him said
"IF" we were charged with a sin after being saved, the only way the wages of that sin could be paid would be the same way required to save us in the beginning, "JESUS DYING".

And we know Jesus isn't dying again for any more sins.

If you toss out God's Lev 16 model for "Atonement" and use the greek concept of "appeasement" instead - -then you would be right.

However - as it is - the NT authors repeatedly point to and warn about "Sin" among believers and charge them with the simple truth "IF God did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" Rom 11.

The NT authors never make the case "sin don't matter once you are saved" --

It is not there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bob Ryan,

Everyone in my family believes that saved Christians can lose grace and end up in Hell. I do believe that all are saved people.

To me the most convincing verse in the Bible is found in I John 5:18. Check various evangelical commentaries and see what they tell you, especially Greek scholars.

Ray

 

[BobRyan]

1Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 18
29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."


Titus 1
1Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 3
6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

1 John 2
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.

 

[BobRyan]

I "could" keep going --

Jude 1
20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
[/quote]

Future immortality “promised”[/b] as a result of future judgment (BOTH good and bad results from that judgment)

Rom 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

This same focus on future judgment with reward for BOTH good and bad deeds is seen in 2Cor 5.

2Cor 5
:9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[wopik]

Ray Berrian

'Did the thief on the Cross have to wait until the Second Coming to go to Heaven?

If you remember Jesus said to him, 'TODAY thou shalt be with Me in paradise.' [Luke 23:43].

That verse could also be punctuated as:

Jesus said to him today, 'thou shalt be with Me in paradise.' [Luke 23:43].

There is no punctuation in the original language. The translators were obviously predisposed to think the dead go immediately to Heaven, so they punctuated it accordingly.


Jesus was going to the GRAVE upon death -- Jesus was going to be graveyard dead for three days and three nights --- as proof He was the Messiah (Matt. 12:40).

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
There is no probabationary period once a person enters Hell; Hell is forever!

I like to say:

"Hell is one mistake no one will ever correct".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Me4Him said
"IF" we were charged with a sin after being saved, the only way the wages of that sin could be paid would be the same way required to save us in the beginning, "JESUS DYING".

And we know Jesus isn't dying again for any more sins.

If you toss out God's Lev 16 model for "Atonement" and use the greek concept of "appeasement" instead - -then you would be right.

However - as it is - the NT authors repeatedly point to and warn about "Sin" among believers and charge them with the simple truth "IF God did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you" Rom 11.

The NT authors never make the case "sin don't matter once you are saved" --

It is not there.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Once saved, you are not "under the law", there is "NO LAW" to condemn you.

A "Judge" can't charge you with a "crime" (sin) unless you've "transgressed a law".

"God's Legal system" works the same way as our legal system here on earth.

Jesus didn't take away the law, he took away the "SIN" which the law condemns, therefore we're not "under the law" of "death for sin".

Once saved, you're no longer under "Wrath" but "chastisement", and that chastisement can mean a "physical death", if you "stray too far".

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that as saved - born again saints we are not under the "condemnation of the law of God".

God does not declare of the saints "you are condemned to the lake of fire". Rather

Rom 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

But the "Saved experience" is never defined as "turned over to Satan". The "saved" gospel proomise is NOT that you "Go to hell so that you can Go to Heaven"!

In 1Cor 5:5 we see someone cast out of the church. In 2Cor 7 we see that "Same someone" returned in repentance.

There is NO "Saved in rebellion" model in fact in 1Cor 6 Paul is explicit "Do not be deceived" Said Paul regarding those who engage in sin and rebellion "SUCH will NOT inherit eternal life"!

As hard as it is to believe - God is not sponsoring rebellion against His Word AND He is not indifferent to it!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,'' you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is an example of the fall of the Jews - "a real fall" out of the real vine of Christ resulting in the REAL need to "be saved".

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Notice that the warning Christ gives to us is that WE TOO should consider what happened to them for WE only stand by our faith! WE are to "Fear for if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you".

A more direct, explicit, shocking warning from God to the saints can hardly be imagined. Unless it is the one He gave in Matt 18 about "Forgiveness revoked"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bob Ryan,

Your passage in I Corinthians 6:9-10 is explaining that sinners will end up in Hell. The key word is ' . . . the unrighteous/sinners. No mention of saints/Christians here.

6:16-17 refers to a Christian who is the temple of the Holy Spirit who if he or she fails--commits a sin. Nevertheless, God says that the saved person spirit is joined, eternally with the Holy Spirit. Thus, a sinner can be justified, savingly only one time.

If a Christian fails he or she has an Advocate/Lawyer/Defender for his or her soul. There will be Christians who have committed sin and will still end up in Heaven. I Corinthians 11:30 indicates that the Lord prematurely took the lives of some Christians because of their poor witness before the world. In my many years as a pastor I have seen this happen in the lives of a couple of men who were Christians. Why? So they would not be condemned along with all the sinners at the Great White Throne Judgment spoken about in Revelation 20:11. Also, some Christians though rebellious will be ashamed to stand before the Lord as the sons and daughters of God [I John 3:2-3].

.