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The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches

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Yeshua1

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So John was wrong when he saw a 1000 yera period between the first and second resurrection then?

And again, the problem her eis that the Bible when rightly dividing gives us the rapture, but steeped in your covenant theology, you just refuse to see them in it!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I will respond to you one last time. No one, and I mean no one, has presented a single verse of Scripture that demonstrates the so-called pre-trib rapture of the Church. You know it and every person on this BB knows it.
I will get to that in due time.
I never apologize for speaking the truth!
You haven't documented it.
It is slander. That is sin. It is against the rules.
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4. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.

It is an attack of a personal nature, not against me, but against another person, being posted again and again and again, without any proof that it is true. It needs to stop.
People don't receive revelation by falling on their head.
You need to use yours.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
From: JOHN NELSON DARBY AND THE RAPTURE by Dr. Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf

Darby did not just develop an ecclesiology that was isolated from interaction with other areas of theology. Rather, he clearly set it against God’s plan for Israel. In one of his convalescence statements he said:

Isaiah xxxii. it was that taught me about the new dispensation. I saw there would be a Davidic reign, and did not know whether the church might not be removed before forty years’ time. At that time I was ill with my knee. It gave me peace to see what the church was. I saw that I, poor, wretched, and sinful J. N. D., knowing too much yet not enough about myself, was left behind, and let go, but I was united to Christ in heaven.​

Thus, Darby sees the church as distinct from Israel, since there would be a Davidic reign for Israel in the millennium, God’s earthly people. On the other hand, Darby saw that he was positionally united with Christ in heaven, a heavenly destiny.

Dispensationalists today see such a distinction as their sine qua non. Leading dispensational spokesman Charles Ryrie says, “A dispensationalist keeps Israel and the church distinct.” Ryrie explains:

This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctions; and one who does will.

Non-dispensational, covenant theologians recognize this essential about dispensationalists as noted by Michael Williams.

The Darbyist church/Israel distinction constitutes the one great organizing principle of classical dispensationalism. The metaphysical and historical distinction between the church and Israel is the axle upon which the theology of Darby, Scofield, and Chafer rides. It is the one great absolutely necessary or essential element of the system. The Darbyist metaphysical distinction between Israel and the church is the sine qua non of classical dispensational theology.

Whether dispensationalists or non-dispensationalists, all recognize for dispensationalism the importance of the distinction between God’s rule for Israel and His rule for the church.

From the time of his convalescence, Darby developed a theology that taught and supported a dispensational, premillennial, pretribulationism. Essentially Darby came to understand that his place or position was the same as Christ, which is in heaven. Thus, the church is a heavenly people, not an earthly people like the established church, in which he was a clergyman. Juxtaposed to the heavenly and spiritual church was Israel, who are composed of a spiritual, ethnic, and national people on earth who have a future in God’s plan after the church age.

Darby came to understand that the church could be taken to heaven at any moment without signs preceding that event, in what would later be known as the pretribulational rapture of the church. Darby’s realization of a change in dispensations laid the groundwork for the development of dispensationalism, since he saw a distinction between God’s plan for the church and His plan for Israel. By this time, Darby also developed a pessimistic view of the visible church, Christendom, and came to believe that it was in utter ruins.

By January 1828, February at the latest, John Nelson Darby had not only come to an understanding of the idea of pretribulationism, but, he had also come to see other components, along with a rationale to support this view. This does not mean that his ideas relating to pretribulationism came out of the womb fully developed along with no internal contradictions. There was still developmental work to be done. Stunt surmises: “In fact for some years after his experience of deliverance there was something decidedly ambivalent about some of the positions adopted by Darby.” It would take at least another decade for Darby to develop full confidence in his new views and their implications. The basics were in place by early 1828. This was too early to have received seminal influence from others regarding things Darby strongly contends he came to understand from personal Bible study alone during his Dublin convalescence.

I have posted the above on numerous occasions. Therefore, it is false for anyone to claim that I have not presented proof that Darby is the father of the pre-trib rapture and classic dispensationalism. I understand that many do not like to stare truth in the face but there it is. You do with it as you please but don't lecture or threaten me because you cannot stand the truth! Those who are interested can go to the link I presented above.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
So John was wrong when he saw a 1000 yera period between the first and second resurrection then?
No! You are wrong! When you can explain away the Scripture I have posted dealing with the resurrection starting with John 5:28, 29 then perhaps you will have something worth saying!
And again, the problem her eis that the Bible when rightly dividing gives us the rapture, but steeped in your covenant theology, you just refuse to see them in it!
When you can show one verse of Scripture that shows a pre-trib rapture then perhaps you will have some basis for your doctrine!
 

evangelist6589

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I will respond to you one last time. No one, and I mean no one, has presented a single verse of Scripture that demonstrates the so-called pre-trib rapture of the Church. You know it and every person on this BB knows it.







I never apologize for speaking the truth!


Many have you just do not want to see them and refuse to want to learn. No one can convince you.

Read my article
http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Eschatology/Pretribulationism.pdf

Refute my article here.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Many have you just do not want to see them and refuse to want to learn. No one can convince you.

Then post the Scripture. All I get is promises that Scripture have been posted but I have yet to see one.

I would also remind you that Scripture is the truth, not the dispensationalist interpretation of Scripture, or the Darby interpretation, or the Scofield interpretation, or the Ryrie interpretation or the >>>>>>>>>>>>!
 

evangelist6589

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Then post the Scripture. All I get is promises that Scripture have been posted but I have yet to see one.

I would also remind you that Scripture is the truth, not the dispensationalist interpretation of Scripture, or the Darby interpretation, or the Scofield interpretation, or the Ryrie interpretation or the >>>>>>>>>>>>!


Lord almighty. I just did!!! I posted a link to my article loaded with verses.
 

tyndale1946

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End Time Prophecy is Big Business and if you don't believe so check out Ancient and American History and the books and movies that come out of it. Churches have rises from it... The Millerites came out of it. Some sold their homes gone to the tops of mountains to wait the coming of the Lord. Ellen White and The Seventh Day Adventist. Generation after generation thought this was the generation in which Christ was going to come and many said they had biblical proof that this was their generation when he would show up. Not time yet. From the founding of this country each and every generation... The American Revolution, The War Of 1812, The Civil War, WWl, WWll , Korea, Vietnam and so on and so forth. I ask you why is this generation any different from the others? They will tell you they had biblical proof also. Was their generation any more wicked than this generation? I was reading Spurgeon this morning and brethren man has not changed since creation. Charles had London going to hell in a hand basket. I bet people during the reign of Hitler thought this was the end too. Many Jews it really was. I'm glad it wasn't because I was born after Hitler died. So is this generation more evil than any generation before? God flooded the whole earth because of one generation and he repented that he had made man and it grieved him in his heart. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord and he saved eight. What about the generation of Jesus Christ? God sent them his Son and they crucified him and tried to kill his teaching by killing those that followed him. Is our generation more evil than these? Has anyone counted the churches in our country that worship God and his Son Jesus Christ? We have free liberty to worship as we see fit? Where is the persecution? Are there more earthquakes than ever before or does our technology allow us to see what has been on a daily basis? Is the evil more prevalent or does technology show us was had been hidden from us in secret has always been naked and revealed in Gods eyes. IMHO We do not need more End Time Philosophy but a good taste of persecution to bring us to the understanding of why our forefathers came to this country in the first place. FOR FREEDOM OF RELIGION!... As far as Jesus return... As the Old Baptist Hymn declares "We'll WAIT till JESUS comes!"
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Lord almighty. I just did!!! I posted a link to my article loaded with verses.

Deuteronomy 5:11. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I read the link earlier. It proved nothing to me. Perhaps you can produce just one verse of Scripture that proves a pre-trib removal of the Church!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
John 14:1-3 says nothing about the pre-trib rapture. That is simply a promise from the Lord Jesus Christ that I expect id fulfilled thousands of times each day.

John 14:1-4
1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


1st Thessalonians 4:13-16 certainly does not prove any pre-trib rapture and it also proves your OP to be wrong. This passage is simply to inform the Saints at Thessalonica that the resurrection has not occurred yet. It was a message of comfort to the worriers! {verse 18} The message is that when the resurrection does occur the dead Saints will be raised with a glorified body before the living Saints do. Nothing is said about the unbelievers because it is doubtful they believed in a resurrection of the body!

1st Thessalonians 4:13-18
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


And as most dispensationalists you totally splinter Daniels prophecy, particularly the 70th week which happened about 2000 years ago!
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Double post but worth reading twice for some!

John 14:1-3 says nothing about the pre-trib rapture. That is simply a promise from the Lord Jesus Christ that I expect id fulfilled thousands of times each day.

John 14:1-4
1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


1st Thessalonians 4:13-16 certainly does not prove any pre-trib rapture and it also proves your OP to be wrong. This passage is simply to inform the Saints at Thessalonica that the resurrection has not occurred yet. It was a message of comfort to the worriers! {verse 18} The message is that when the resurrection does occur the dead Saints will be raised with a glorified body before the living Saints do. Nothing is said about the unbelievers because it is doubtful they believed in a resurrection of the body!

1st Thessalonians 4:13-18
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


And as most dispensationalists you totally splinter Daniels prophecy, particularly the 70th week which happened about 2000 years ago!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I have posted the above on numerous occasions. Therefore, it is false for anyone to claim that I have not presented proof that Darby is the father of the pre-trib rapture and classic dispensationalism. I understand that many do not like to stare truth in the face but there it is. You do with it as you please but don't lecture or threaten me because you cannot stand the truth! Those who are interested can go to the link I presented above.
Here is your ungodly slanderous post, which, if repeated again will incur an infraction:
And all because of a fictitious pre-trib rapture invented out of "whole cloth" by one John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a fall off a horse. There is absolutely no basis in Scripture for such and no one on this Board has yet produced one. It does not exist!
That is not true.
Here is what Ice documents and says about Darby's experience:
This period of Darby’s life is known among Darby scholars as “The Convalescence”
during which he experienced “The Deliverance.”34 After the accident, Darby was taken
to the home of Susannah Pennefather (1785–1862), his older sister, in Dublin in order to
recover. Darby’s convalescence was a time when “the questions in his mind began to
resolve themselves.”35 He wrote: “I was troubled in the same way when a clergyman,
but never had the smallest shadow of it since.”
He had a riding accident. That is true. He never received any "revelation" at that time. In fact he never received any "revelation" at all, did he?
During the time that he had to "convalesce" or recover he had a lot of time to think, as happens to many of us when we get in an accident and are confined to a bed. It is then he began to think about these things: "the questions in his mind began to resolve themselves."
You have been foolishly charging him of fictitious ideas resulting from a fall off of a horse. Rather it comes from meditation from God's Word during a time of recovery. How can you be trusted if you are not an honest man in your reporting of events?
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Many have you just do not want to see them and refuse to want to learn. No one can convince you.

Read my article
http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Eschatology/Pretribulationism.pdf

Refute my article here.
A 10 page paper required a ToC? You tackled this subject in 10 pages??? Oh... and you're first sentence had a grammar error. I think I'll pass on reading this.

I tell you what. I will read your paper and respond to it if you read and handle N. T. Wright's short article refuting the rapture. Deal?


BTW... as I said but received no response... with so many signs to this secret rapture... I guess its not much of a secret.
 
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Revmitchell

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10 pages double spaced is not much room to cover what is in the table of contents in a very detailed manner. Neither was there any clear titles given to mark the different sections listed in the table of contents. There is very little to refute as the paper is shallow at best.
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A 10 page paper required a ToC? You tackled this subject in 10 pages??? Oh... and you're first sentence had a grammar error. I think I'll pass on reading this.

I tell you what. I will read your paper and respond to it if you read and handle N. T. Wright's short article refuting the rapture. Deal?


BTW... as I said but received no response... with so many signs to this secret rapture... I guess its not much of a secret.

If you have grammar objections please post and make sure you are correct as I am always looking to correct grammar and spelling errors. However sometimes the problem is not me but the editor, as different editors do not always agree/disagree on grammar errors.

I am not perfect and have found a number of grammar and spelling errors in the books I read, most of which by pastors.
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
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10 pages double spaced is not much room to cover what is in the table of contents in a very detailed manner. Neither was there any clear titles given to mark the different sections listed in the table of contents. There is very little to refute as the paper is shallow at best.

Its far more than what you have provided in your opposing arguments. Oh and by the way the paper is not intended to be a full 500 page book on the topic, but just a general synopsis on the issue.
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
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Verses in defense of the Pretrib View

Rev 3:10-Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

No Old testament passage on the tribulation even mentions the church why is that? Refer to Deut 4:29-30, Jer 30:4-11, Dan 8:24-27. Also no New Testament passage on the tribulation mentions the church why is that? Mt 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thes 1:9-10; 5:4-9, 2 Thes 2:1-11.

The scripture in 1 Thes 5:9, and Rom 5:9 state that the church is not destined for wrath, so why would the church go through the great day of God's wrath? Please think about this question for you reply, and look up the verses. No I will quote them.

1 Thes 5:9-9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9-9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

John 14:1-3 provides a strong argument for the pretribulation position. The text says;

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my fathers house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also” (ESV).

This passage I believe brings defeat to the post & midtrib arguments. Midtrib advocate Marvin Rosenthal believes that the interpretation of John 14:1-3 is debatable.Not once in his entire 300-page book does he address or give attention to this “debatable” passage. Perhaps the argumentation style of some post & mid tribulationists is to ignore passages that bring defeat to their arguments. In the passage does Christ promise that he will rescue his elect from the earth and will bring them to heaven (Jn 13:36). He has prepared a place for believers. This place is described differently in different translations. The KJV uses the word “mansions” instead of “rooms” (ESV, NIV) to describe this place. The English language has changed over time and the word “mansions” no longer has the same connotation that it did in the 16th century. The Greek word used translated by “mansions” or “rooms” is mone which literally can be translated as dwelling places. If Christ had intended for believers to go through the tribulation
and to experience the wrath of God, then this passage would make no sense. Another passage in strong support of the pretribulation argument is 1
Thes 4:13-18.
The passage gives great detail to the events. One of the certain truths in the passage is the assurance of a rapture. The advantage to reading the text literally will naturally lead one to a pretribulationist perspective as the view flows naturally from this text and many others.
Another major passage in defense of pretribulationism is 1 Thes 5:1-11.

This is just a general synopsis but it provides enough evidence to persuade those whom think rationally about this and the scripture of the pre-trib view.
 
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Greektim

Well-Known Member
If you have grammar objections please post and make sure you are correct as I am always looking to correct grammar and spelling errors. However sometimes the problem is not me but the editor, as different editors do not always agree/disagree on grammar errors.

I am not perfect and have found a number of grammar and spelling errors in the books I read, most of which by pastors.
I actually found the error frequently. When you connect two independent clauses w/ a conjunction, you didn't add the comma. It is always a comma and a coordinating conjunction.

There are three tribulational views debated among premillennialists COMMA and they are posttribulationism, midtribulationism and pretribulationism.
 
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