Personally, I do precisely that, but unlike you, I am eager to remove intellectual barriers to accepting Christ's resurrection. So unlike the Baptists here, I strive to address the apparent contradictions in the Easter narratives head on.
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The Sequence of Events after Christ's Resurrection
- Thread starter Deadworm
- Start date
Personally, I do precisely that, but unlike you, I am eager to remove intellectual barriers to accepting Christ's resurrection. So unlike the Baptists here, I strive to address the apparent contradictions in the Easter narratives head on.
Are you speaking of Question 4 in the O.P.?On your answer to question four I do not know, but if you would take it apart, burn the midnight oil and put it under your biblical microscope and with the help of the Holy Spirit maybe you would come to a conclusion that would satisfy you...
Well it is midnight here in England, but I'll burn just a little of the oil if it will help.
That the Lord did appear to Simon Peter before the other disciples is shown by Luke 24:34. The meeting with the 500 brethren might have been that reported in Matthew 28:16-20. We are only told that the eleven were there, but that does not preclude a larger number. Paul's challenge to the Corinthians is to go and check it out for themselves; most of the 500 were still alive and travel around Europe was easier in Roman times than it would be for another 1800 years.
We know that 6 months or so before our Lord's death and resurrection, His brothers, including James, did not believe (John 7:5), yet immediately after the ascension, the brothers are praying with the apostles in the upper room (Acts 1:13-14). An appearance to James would be entirely possible and logical. 'Then to all the apostles.' this might be an additional appearance to the 'twelve' or it could be the use of 'apostle' in its wider meaning to include, maybe, the seventy (Luke 10:1).. The Lord Jesus remained on earth for 40 days after His resurrection (Acts 1:3) so there was plenty of time for these appearances. Luke speaks of 'many convincing proofs that He was alive' without enumerating them.
I hope that helps just a bit.
Before I lay out my proposed sequence of events on and after Easter Sunday, 8 preliminary remarks seem advisable in the interest of clarifying basic assumptions:
(1) Our Gospels reference 3 different visits by the women to the tomb. Once this is established, it becomes easier to reconcile the apparent contradictions in the resurrection narratives.
(2) In Mark 16:5-7 the "young man" (Greek: "neaniskos") clad in a white robe sitting inside the tomb is not identified as an angel. He is more likely the same unidentified "young man" ("neaniskos") who is also identified by his linen robe and follows the arrested Jesus in Mark 14:51-22.
(3) According to the scholarly consensus, the tradition of Roman guards at the tomb 28:2-3, 11-15 is unique to Matthew and is a coherent piece of Matthew's M source, awkwardly spliced together with the account of the women's arrival at the tomb. Matthew creates the false impression that this angel is the "young man" inside the tomb referred to in Mark 16:5-7. As we shall see, a recognition of points (1)-(2) allow us to remove the apparent contradiction between 1 vs. 2 angels at the tomb.
(4) Mary Magdalene is initially the newsbreaker and seeks out the disciples on 3 occasions on Easter Sunday. After her first report in John 20:1-2, what she does and where she goes is unclear, but holds the key to reconstructing the sequence of events.
(5) The Fourth Gospel does not include her in the foot race between Peter and the BD to the tomb. Yet in a piece of independent tradition awkwardly spliced together with 20:1-10, she is abruptly found alone, weeping outside the tomb (John 20:11).
.
(6) The women at the tomb race off to report their vision of 2 (not 1) angels at the tomb, but are not believed (Luke 24:11). These women have not yet seen the risen Lord (Luke 24:22-23). What these frustrated women do and experience after this rebuff is critical to the reconstruction of the sequence of events. .
(7) As for apparent contradictions between Jesus' command to return to Galilee vs. His insistence that the disciples remain in Jerusalem, here is the key to resolving this apparent contradiction. Jesus is crucified during a Passover visit to Jerusalem. The disciples don't expect His crucifixion at this time and lack the provisions and financing they need for a permanent stay in Jerusalem. Also, keep in mind the most of Jesus' followers were Galileans and residents of the Decapolis region and they would have returned home from Jerusalem after Passover; so there was an urgent need to travel soon and inform them that Christ had risen.
(8) The discrepancies between the Gospel series of appearances and Paul's list of appearances in 1 Cor 15:3-8 (especially the appearance to more then 500 and the private appearance to Jesus' brother James will be resolved in the reconciliation I intend to explain in a future post.
After this presentation of basic assumptions, it will be fun for me to put my own view of the series of events into print because I've never done that before and I recognize that the best hypothesis is the one that makes the most sense of all the relevant details. So stay tuned.
(1) Our Gospels reference 3 different visits by the women to the tomb. Once this is established, it becomes easier to reconcile the apparent contradictions in the resurrection narratives.
(2) In Mark 16:5-7 the "young man" (Greek: "neaniskos") clad in a white robe sitting inside the tomb is not identified as an angel. He is more likely the same unidentified "young man" ("neaniskos") who is also identified by his linen robe and follows the arrested Jesus in Mark 14:51-22.
(3) According to the scholarly consensus, the tradition of Roman guards at the tomb 28:2-3, 11-15 is unique to Matthew and is a coherent piece of Matthew's M source, awkwardly spliced together with the account of the women's arrival at the tomb. Matthew creates the false impression that this angel is the "young man" inside the tomb referred to in Mark 16:5-7. As we shall see, a recognition of points (1)-(2) allow us to remove the apparent contradiction between 1 vs. 2 angels at the tomb.
(4) Mary Magdalene is initially the newsbreaker and seeks out the disciples on 3 occasions on Easter Sunday. After her first report in John 20:1-2, what she does and where she goes is unclear, but holds the key to reconstructing the sequence of events.
(5) The Fourth Gospel does not include her in the foot race between Peter and the BD to the tomb. Yet in a piece of independent tradition awkwardly spliced together with 20:1-10, she is abruptly found alone, weeping outside the tomb (John 20:11).
.
(6) The women at the tomb race off to report their vision of 2 (not 1) angels at the tomb, but are not believed (Luke 24:11). These women have not yet seen the risen Lord (Luke 24:22-23). What these frustrated women do and experience after this rebuff is critical to the reconstruction of the sequence of events. .
(7) As for apparent contradictions between Jesus' command to return to Galilee vs. His insistence that the disciples remain in Jerusalem, here is the key to resolving this apparent contradiction. Jesus is crucified during a Passover visit to Jerusalem. The disciples don't expect His crucifixion at this time and lack the provisions and financing they need for a permanent stay in Jerusalem. Also, keep in mind the most of Jesus' followers were Galileans and residents of the Decapolis region and they would have returned home from Jerusalem after Passover; so there was an urgent need to travel soon and inform them that Christ had risen.
(8) The discrepancies between the Gospel series of appearances and Paul's list of appearances in 1 Cor 15:3-8 (especially the appearance to more then 500 and the private appearance to Jesus' brother James will be resolved in the reconciliation I intend to explain in a future post.
After this presentation of basic assumptions, it will be fun for me to put my own view of the series of events into print because I've never done that before and I recognize that the best hypothesis is the one that makes the most sense of all the relevant details. So stay tuned.
1. The women arrive at the tomb first and find it empty. Mary Magdalene volunteers to run and inform Peter and the Beloved Disciple (hereafter the BD). She reports that people have removed the body, she knows not where (John 20:1-2). The BD wins the foot race to the tomb, but waits for Peter to enter the tomb first before entering himself (20:3-8). Mary does not seem to participate in this race, perhaps opting to track down the other disciples and notify them that the body is missing.
2. Peter and the BD both return to their lodging (20:10). But they don't return at the same time because the BD remains, meditating on his growing conviction that the body has not been stolen, but rather Jesus has risen from the dead. This is the point where Mark's report on the empty tomb begins: the women have remained with their burial spices at the tomb, perhaps waiting for Mary's return. The BD is the "young man" in the tomb who assures these women that Christ is alive and they must go and assure Peter (who left still in unbelief) and the other disciples that they must return to Galilee for Jesus' promised resurrection appearance there (Mark 16:5-7; cp. 14:28)`.
3.The women disobey the BD's order and stay put, probably waiting for Mary. Why? First because the BD is a man, not an angel, and they doubt his declaration. 2nd, because they have good reason to fear ridicule if they tell the disciples that Jesus is alive.
4. Enter Luke's report in 24:2-11). While the women are waiting in defiance of the BD's order, 2 angels appear and assure them that Christ is risen indeed. This angelic word sends them off to inform the disciples, who ridicule their report, just as the women had feared.
5. So what will these humiliated women do now? They rush back to the tomb, hoping the 2 angels are still there to advise them on what to do next. Besides, they still need to rendez-vous with Mary to see what she has learned and they hope she has returned by now to the tomb.
6. In fact, Mary has finally returned to the tomb, a mess, and she stands outside weeping. Then the angels that appeared to the other women appear to Mary and assure her that Jesus is alive. When she turns around she actually sees the risen Jesus, but initially mistakes Him for the local gardener until He tenderly addresses her by name (John 20:11-18). The other frustrated other women who are "on the way" back to the tomb in the hope of contacting the angels again about what to do next also encounter the risen Jesus. Jesus reissues the BD's order to send the disciples to Galilee for a resurrection appearance (Matthew 28:9-10). But instead of returning and risking being rebuffed again, it is agreed that Mary will go and tell them (John 20:18). She is not ridiculed like the other women were because by now Peter and the disciples on the road to Emmaus have seen the Lord and convinced the other disciples (Luke 24:33-35).
7. Jesus then appears to the disciples and tells them to remain in Jerusalem for empowerment from the Holy Spirit. So they remain another 8 days and receive another appearance at which doubting Thomas is present. He had been absent for their first Easter appearance (John 20:24-29)..
8. But the disciples need supplies and funding and, more importantly, need to notify the many Galilean believers that Jesus is alive. So they return to Galilee, make their report, and experience the Jesus' promised appearance there (Matthew 28:16-20: John 20:1-14). [to be continued]
2. Peter and the BD both return to their lodging (20:10). But they don't return at the same time because the BD remains, meditating on his growing conviction that the body has not been stolen, but rather Jesus has risen from the dead. This is the point where Mark's report on the empty tomb begins: the women have remained with their burial spices at the tomb, perhaps waiting for Mary's return. The BD is the "young man" in the tomb who assures these women that Christ is alive and they must go and assure Peter (who left still in unbelief) and the other disciples that they must return to Galilee for Jesus' promised resurrection appearance there (Mark 16:5-7; cp. 14:28)`.
3.The women disobey the BD's order and stay put, probably waiting for Mary. Why? First because the BD is a man, not an angel, and they doubt his declaration. 2nd, because they have good reason to fear ridicule if they tell the disciples that Jesus is alive.
4. Enter Luke's report in 24:2-11). While the women are waiting in defiance of the BD's order, 2 angels appear and assure them that Christ is risen indeed. This angelic word sends them off to inform the disciples, who ridicule their report, just as the women had feared.
5. So what will these humiliated women do now? They rush back to the tomb, hoping the 2 angels are still there to advise them on what to do next. Besides, they still need to rendez-vous with Mary to see what she has learned and they hope she has returned by now to the tomb.
6. In fact, Mary has finally returned to the tomb, a mess, and she stands outside weeping. Then the angels that appeared to the other women appear to Mary and assure her that Jesus is alive. When she turns around she actually sees the risen Jesus, but initially mistakes Him for the local gardener until He tenderly addresses her by name (John 20:11-18). The other frustrated other women who are "on the way" back to the tomb in the hope of contacting the angels again about what to do next also encounter the risen Jesus. Jesus reissues the BD's order to send the disciples to Galilee for a resurrection appearance (Matthew 28:9-10). But instead of returning and risking being rebuffed again, it is agreed that Mary will go and tell them (John 20:18). She is not ridiculed like the other women were because by now Peter and the disciples on the road to Emmaus have seen the Lord and convinced the other disciples (Luke 24:33-35).
7. Jesus then appears to the disciples and tells them to remain in Jerusalem for empowerment from the Holy Spirit. So they remain another 8 days and receive another appearance at which doubting Thomas is present. He had been absent for their first Easter appearance (John 20:24-29)..
8. But the disciples need supplies and funding and, more importantly, need to notify the many Galilean believers that Jesus is alive. So they return to Galilee, make their report, and experience the Jesus' promised appearance there (Matthew 28:16-20: John 20:1-14). [to be continued]
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I need to make important qualifications to my preceding post, but my top priority is to move on to explain (1) why Paul's list of resurrection appearances in 1 Cor 15:3-8 has greater apologetic value than the Gospel resurrection appearances and (2) how Paul's list of appearances can be reconciled with the series of appearances in our Gospels.
(1) For many reasons that I won't discuss here, the modern scholarly consensus is that none of our Gospel testimonies to Jesus' resurrection can be confidently connected with eyewitness testimony.
But what is beyond dispute is that the list of resurrection appearances that Paul received (1 Cor 15:3) could be confirmed by the apostles he met during his 2 prior visits to the Jerusalem church.(Galatians 1:18-19; 2:1-10). Paul concedes that he was grilled on these 2 visits on the accuracy of his presentation of Christ's atoning death and resurrection.
(2a) Paul begins by reporting that "He appeared to Cephas (= Peter), then to the 12 (1 Cor 15:5)" and Luke confirms this sequence (24:34; cp. 24:36-49). The fact that we nowhere learn any details of His appearance to Peter suggests that it somehow got lost to Christian tradition, but for that very reason must have occurred because otherwise we might expect a legend to be created to recount this appearance.
(2b) Paul then recounts: "Then He appeared to more than 500 brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died (15:7)." Paul knows these people and implies that most of them are still alive to verify this resurrection appearance. But this Easter appearance is never mentioned in the Gospel records--or is it? A case can be made on 3 grounds that this is the appearance recorded in Matthew 28:16-20).
(i) Jesus delivers missionary instructions to 70 followers (Luke 10:1), but Matthew mentions only the 12 as receiving these instructions (10:1). This Matthean tendency to mention only the 12 when a much larger groups is involved opens the door to the possibility that the resurrection appearance to the 11 is in fact an appearance to a much larger group.
(ii) Matthew tells us that "some doubted (28:17)." Such doubt is now inexplicable on the part of the 11 disciples because by now they have experienced 2 Jerusalem appearances and even Thomas's doubts have now been removed. The doubters must be others besides the 11 who witnessed this appearance.
(iii) This appearance occurs on "the mountain to which Jesus had directed them (28:16)." So the location of this resurrection appearance was known in advance and no doubt was widely publicized and such publicity would explain how over 500 could gather to witness such an appearance. An invitation to over 500 believers would likely require an outdoor setting with a landmark like a mountain.
(2c) Paul's sequence continues: "Then He appeared to James (Jesus' brother), then to all the apostles (15:7)." These appearances can be identified as the recognition of Jesus exclusively by the Beloved Disciple, followed by a recognition by the rest of the apostles in the boat (John 21:7-23). The phrase "all the apostles" would then contrast with the private recognition by James alone. Of course, that would mean that the BD is not John the son of Zebedee, but Jesus' brother James. My next planned post will offer several reasons why this identification is in fact correct.
I will conclude this thread by explaining the commonly accepted view of why Jesus' female followers are omitted from the list handed down to Paul. The testimony of women didn't count in Jewish law courts and would hurt the credibility of the witness to the resurrection among Jewish males.
(1) For many reasons that I won't discuss here, the modern scholarly consensus is that none of our Gospel testimonies to Jesus' resurrection can be confidently connected with eyewitness testimony.
But what is beyond dispute is that the list of resurrection appearances that Paul received (1 Cor 15:3) could be confirmed by the apostles he met during his 2 prior visits to the Jerusalem church.(Galatians 1:18-19; 2:1-10). Paul concedes that he was grilled on these 2 visits on the accuracy of his presentation of Christ's atoning death and resurrection.
(2a) Paul begins by reporting that "He appeared to Cephas (= Peter), then to the 12 (1 Cor 15:5)" and Luke confirms this sequence (24:34; cp. 24:36-49). The fact that we nowhere learn any details of His appearance to Peter suggests that it somehow got lost to Christian tradition, but for that very reason must have occurred because otherwise we might expect a legend to be created to recount this appearance.
(2b) Paul then recounts: "Then He appeared to more than 500 brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died (15:7)." Paul knows these people and implies that most of them are still alive to verify this resurrection appearance. But this Easter appearance is never mentioned in the Gospel records--or is it? A case can be made on 3 grounds that this is the appearance recorded in Matthew 28:16-20).
(i) Jesus delivers missionary instructions to 70 followers (Luke 10:1), but Matthew mentions only the 12 as receiving these instructions (10:1). This Matthean tendency to mention only the 12 when a much larger groups is involved opens the door to the possibility that the resurrection appearance to the 11 is in fact an appearance to a much larger group.
(ii) Matthew tells us that "some doubted (28:17)." Such doubt is now inexplicable on the part of the 11 disciples because by now they have experienced 2 Jerusalem appearances and even Thomas's doubts have now been removed. The doubters must be others besides the 11 who witnessed this appearance.
(iii) This appearance occurs on "the mountain to which Jesus had directed them (28:16)." So the location of this resurrection appearance was known in advance and no doubt was widely publicized and such publicity would explain how over 500 could gather to witness such an appearance. An invitation to over 500 believers would likely require an outdoor setting with a landmark like a mountain.
(2c) Paul's sequence continues: "Then He appeared to James (Jesus' brother), then to all the apostles (15:7)." These appearances can be identified as the recognition of Jesus exclusively by the Beloved Disciple, followed by a recognition by the rest of the apostles in the boat (John 21:7-23). The phrase "all the apostles" would then contrast with the private recognition by James alone. Of course, that would mean that the BD is not John the son of Zebedee, but Jesus' brother James. My next planned post will offer several reasons why this identification is in fact correct.
I will conclude this thread by explaining the commonly accepted view of why Jesus' female followers are omitted from the list handed down to Paul. The testimony of women didn't count in Jewish law courts and would hurt the credibility of the witness to the resurrection among Jewish males.
He is not looking for any answers or explanations,Martin he has an agenda.Are you speaking of Question 4 in the O.P.?
Well it is midnight here in England, but I'll burn just a little of the oil if it will help.
That the Lord did appear to Simon Peter before the other disciples is shown by Luke 24:34. The meeting with the 500 brethren might have been that reported in Matthew 28:16-20. We are only told that the eleven were there, but that does not preclude a larger number. Paul's challenge to the Corinthians is to go and check it out for themselves; most of the 500 were still alive and travel around Europe was easier in Roman times than it would be for another 1800 years.
We know that 6 months or so before our Lord's death and resurrection, His brothers, including James, did not believe (John 7:5), yet immediately after the ascension, the brothers are praying with the apostles in the upper room (Acts 1:13-14). An appearance to James would be entirely possible and logical. 'Then to all the apostles.' this might be an additional appearance to the 'twelve' or it could be the use of 'apostle' in its wider meaning to include, maybe, the seventy (Luke 10:1).. The Lord Jesus remained on earth for 40 days after His resurrection (Acts 1:3) so there was plenty of time for these appearances. Luke speaks of 'many convincing proofs that He was alive' without enumerating them.
I hope that helps just a bit.
Jesus brother James is the major written source for the 4th Gospel (21:24), but the final editor is Jesus' disciple "John the Elder" (so 2 John 1; 3 John 1) who is not 1 of the 12 (So Papias--6-120 AD) Here are just 5 of the 200 pages of reasons for this claim:
1. 'The disciple whom Jesus loved" (BD) is first mentioned as sitting next to Jesus at the Last Supper in John 13:23-25. Jesus loves all His disciples; so this is surely a technical title and makes sense if the BD is Jesus' brother James. "Jacob" is the Aramaic name translated "James" and the full phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is inspired by Psalm 47:4-5: "He chose our heritage for us, the pride of Jacob whom the Lord loved. God has ascended with a shout." John 13:1 marks the beginning of the Gospel's ascent motif (see 20:17) and a nearby Psalm (41:9) has just been quoted in John 13:18.
James also takes center stage in 2 of our earliest noncanonical Gospels: the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Coptic Gospel of Thomas 12, where Jesus decrees James as the disciples' future leader and hyperbolically declares that "heaven and earth came into being" for James.
2. At the cross Jesus entrusts the care of His mother to the BD: "Mother, see to your son...son, see to your mother (John 19:26-27)." Thus, Jesus' identifies the BD as the son of His own mother!" That means that the BD is Jesus' brother. Joseph's death is assumed; so he is not available to take care of his wife and that duty then falls to the next eldest son, James. In the lead-up to the Pentecost outpouring, Jesus' mother is with His brothers, as would be expected, not with John the son of Zebedee (Acts 1:12).
3. The BD wins the foot race with Peter to the tomb, but does not enter until Peter does so and confirms that Jesus' corpse is no longer there (John 20:3-6). Why? Because according to ancient Jewish Christian tradition, James is a Nazirite and Nazirites take a vow not to go near a corpse since doing so would make them impure.
4. The BD is the "young man" in a white robe who remains in the tomb (Mark 16:5-7) and this is the same "young man" who is grabbed and loses his linen robe after Jesus' arrest (Mark 14:51-52) and later shows up as the BD in the high priest's courtyard. In John 18:15-16 he is described as "known to the high priest." All this fits ancient Jewish Christian descriptions of James as always clothed in his white linen Nazirite robe and as being constantly at prayer in the Temple where he could be "known to the high priest." In fact, James is later executed in 62 AD by order of the high priest (so Josephus).
5. The BD is never identified in the 4th Gospel, but is always distinguished from the named disciples around him. So in John 21:1 the BD must be identified from the list of disciples in the boat. Since "the sons of Zebedee" are mentioned, the BD cannot be John, but must be 1 of the 2 other unidentified men in the boat. The BD is the only one in the boat to recognize Jesus in the dark on the shore, but all the disciples in the boat recognize Jesus when they go ashore. If James is the BD, this neatly fits the sequence of Paul's list of appearances: "Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles (1 Cor 15:7)."
1. 'The disciple whom Jesus loved" (BD) is first mentioned as sitting next to Jesus at the Last Supper in John 13:23-25. Jesus loves all His disciples; so this is surely a technical title and makes sense if the BD is Jesus' brother James. "Jacob" is the Aramaic name translated "James" and the full phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is inspired by Psalm 47:4-5: "He chose our heritage for us, the pride of Jacob whom the Lord loved. God has ascended with a shout." John 13:1 marks the beginning of the Gospel's ascent motif (see 20:17) and a nearby Psalm (41:9) has just been quoted in John 13:18.
James also takes center stage in 2 of our earliest noncanonical Gospels: the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Coptic Gospel of Thomas 12, where Jesus decrees James as the disciples' future leader and hyperbolically declares that "heaven and earth came into being" for James.
2. At the cross Jesus entrusts the care of His mother to the BD: "Mother, see to your son...son, see to your mother (John 19:26-27)." Thus, Jesus' identifies the BD as the son of His own mother!" That means that the BD is Jesus' brother. Joseph's death is assumed; so he is not available to take care of his wife and that duty then falls to the next eldest son, James. In the lead-up to the Pentecost outpouring, Jesus' mother is with His brothers, as would be expected, not with John the son of Zebedee (Acts 1:12).
3. The BD wins the foot race with Peter to the tomb, but does not enter until Peter does so and confirms that Jesus' corpse is no longer there (John 20:3-6). Why? Because according to ancient Jewish Christian tradition, James is a Nazirite and Nazirites take a vow not to go near a corpse since doing so would make them impure.
4. The BD is the "young man" in a white robe who remains in the tomb (Mark 16:5-7) and this is the same "young man" who is grabbed and loses his linen robe after Jesus' arrest (Mark 14:51-52) and later shows up as the BD in the high priest's courtyard. In John 18:15-16 he is described as "known to the high priest." All this fits ancient Jewish Christian descriptions of James as always clothed in his white linen Nazirite robe and as being constantly at prayer in the Temple where he could be "known to the high priest." In fact, James is later executed in 62 AD by order of the high priest (so Josephus).
5. The BD is never identified in the 4th Gospel, but is always distinguished from the named disciples around him. So in John 21:1 the BD must be identified from the list of disciples in the boat. Since "the sons of Zebedee" are mentioned, the BD cannot be John, but must be 1 of the 2 other unidentified men in the boat. The BD is the only one in the boat to recognize Jesus in the dark on the shore, but all the disciples in the boat recognize Jesus when they go ashore. If James is the BD, this neatly fits the sequence of Paul's list of appearances: "Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles (1 Cor 15:7)."
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the Christians from other demonnitions that you refer to here no doubt have a very poor view on the scriptures , on the gospel, resuurection etc, as one CANNOT have a less than view on the scriptures and hold to a complete and valid theology!Your response shows that I have indeed effectively called your bluff because, like the other Baptist respondents to this thread, you have no clue about how to negotiate the inconsistencies the OP summarizes and defend a sequence for the Resurrection narrative. If that narrative has no specifiable sequence, then how is it even credible to believe in Jesus' resurrection? I have now exposed the truth: Baptist claims on this site to be able to solve such discrepancies and thus defend biblical inerrancy have proven false. So in my next planned post, I need to demonstrate how this can be done.
Have you noticed how few Christians from other denomination have the stomach to wade through all the unsubstantiated Baptist pontifications and insults to defend their faith on this site? Think about it.
Or buy and use a reputable Bible harmony of the 4 Gospels...The thing that strikes me about the four accounts is how closely they tally. If they were identical, @Deadworm would be telling us that they all copied off each other.
All four accounts tell us that our Lord was buried in a tomb and that it belonged to Joseph of Arimathea. It is Mary Magdalen (all four accounts) who with another Mary (Matthew and Mark) come early (all four) on the first day of the week (all four) and find the stone (all four) has been rolled away (all four). One or more angels tell them, "He is risen" (Matt, Mark, Luke). They go and tell the disciples (all four) after a little delay because of fear (Mark). Mark agrees with Luke about the appearance on the road to Emmaeus.
It is a mark of authenticity that the four reports are different, yet remarkably similar. How strange that women should have been the first witnesses. As I have said, John Wenham weaves the stories together quite convincingly, though there may be some outstanding questions-- I can't remember. I have no intention of ploughing through his book to answer the questions in the O.P. Those who are interested can buy the book.
When one rekects that thescriptures are indded inspired, then how can one legit hold to the Bodily resurrection of jesus?If you read my OP carefully, you would realize that modern scnolars are often unimpressed by Gospel resurrection narratives because of so many perceived contradictions. A fellow professor colleague told me he was once "saved" in a Methodist evangelistic service, but now rejects the Gospel resurrection narratives because of these contradictions. My Harvard thesis advisor rejected the Easter appearances to the female disciples because of these contradictions and because Paul excludes any mention of an appearance to women in his list of Easter appearances in 1 Cor 15:3-8. These professors had great influence over their students. As a devout evangelical I want to give them a reason to believe other than a mindless appeal to NT claims about divine inspiration. So wake up and smell the coffee!
Majority of reputable NT experts still hold that same John wrote all books ascribed to his Name!Jesus brother James is the major written source for the 4th Gospel (21:24), but the final editor is Jesus' disciple "John the Elder" (so 2 John 1; 3 John 1) who is not 1 of the 12 (So Papias--6-120 AD) Here are just 5 of the 200 pages of reasons for this claim:
1. 'The disciple whom Jesus loved" (BD) is first mentioned as sitting next to Jesus at the Last Supper in John 13:23-25. Jesus loves all His disciples; so this is surely a technical title and makes sense if the BD is Jesus' brother James. "Jacob" is the Aramaic name translated "James" and the full phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is inspired by Psalm 47:4-5: "He chose our heritage for us, the pride of Jacob whom the Lord loved. God has ascended with a shout." John 13:1 marks the beginning of the Gospel's ascent motif (see 20:17) and a nearby Psalm (41:9) has just been quoted in John 13:18.
James also takes center stage in 2 of our earliest noncanonical Gospels: the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Coptic Gospel of Thomas 12, where Jesus decrees James as the disciples' future leader and hyperbolically declares that "heaven and earth came into being" for James.
2. At the cross Jesus entrusts the care of His mother to the BD: "Mother, see to your son...son, see to your mother (John 19:26-27)." Thus, Jesus' identifies the BD as the son of His own mother!" That means that the BD is Jesus' brother. Joseph's death is assumed; so he is not available to take care of his wife and that duty then falls to the next eldest son, James. In the lead-up to the Pentecost outpouring, Jesus' mother is with His brothers, as would be expected, not with John the son of Zebedee (Acts 1:12).
3. The BD wins the foot race with Peter to the tomb, but does not enter until Peter does so and confirms that Jesus' corpse is no longer there (John 20:3-6). Why? Because according to ancient Jewish Christian tradition, James is a Nazirite and Nazirites take a vow not to go near a corpse since doing so would make them impure.
4. The BD is the "young man" in a white robe who remains in the tomb (Mark 16:5-7) and this is the same "young man" who is grabbed and loses his linen robe after Jesus' arrest (Mark 14:51-52) and later shows up as the BD in the high priest's courtyard. In John 18:15-16 he is described as "known to the high priest." All this fits ancient Jewish Christian descriptions of James as always clothed in his white linen Nazirite robe and as being constantly at prayer in the Temple where he could be "known to the high priest." In fact, James is later executed in 62 AD by order of the high priest (so Josephus).
5. The BD is never identified in the 4th Gospel, but is always distinguished from the named disciples around him. So in John 21:1 the BD must be identified from the list of disciples in the boat. Since "the sons of Zebedee" are mentioned, the BD cannot be John, but must be 1 of the 2 other unidentified men in the boat. The BD is the only one in the boat to recognize Jesus in the dark on the shore, but all the disciples in the boat recognize Jesus when they go ashore. If James is the BD, this neatly fits the sequence of Paul's list of appearances: "Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles (1 Cor 15:7)."
the barriers to accepted that Jesus arose are due to people being lost sinners, not a lack of evidence/facts!Personally, I do precisely that, but unlike you, I am eager to remove intellectual barriers to accepting Christ's resurrection. So unlike the Baptists here, I strive to address the apparent contradictions in the Easter narratives head on.
Yeshua: "Majority of reputable NT experts still hold that same John wrote all books ascribed to his Name!"
LOL, as usual you pontificate from Ghetto ignorance. I have many commentaries on the 4th Gospel and only 1 old and out-of-date one does. The gold standard of Johannine commentaries is the massive 2-volune commentary by Raymond Brown, a major NT scholar. In his commentary he advocates identifying the Beloved Disciple as John the son of Zebedee. But in a later book on the 4th Gospel he recants that claim and joins the scholarly consensus that the identity of the BD is unknown, but is certain not John the son of Zebedee. This skeptical scholarly consensus is the reason why I've spent 25 years gathering evidence for Jesus' brother James as the BD. I have presented just a few points from that research here and you have no clue as to how to embark on a point-by-point refutation.
Yeshua: "There are NO conflicts that have no reasonable explanation, as there can be harmonized, check a Bible Harmony on the 4 Gospels!
It is precisely a good Gospel harmony that I used in a Bible study that draws attention to these and other apparent inconsistencies. As a result, all but 1 member of my Bible study got an MDiv or Masters in Theology from reputable seminaries and grad schools that you would consider liberal! Ha!
As for your claim that "there are no conflicts that have no reasonable explanation, my OP offers a long list of such apparent contradictions and you seem to have no clue about how to harmonize these difficulties. I have offered my harmonization, and if you think differently, put up or shut up--go through my OP list and explain how you would remove these problems. Or just do what you're doing and keep pontificating unjustified Baptist Ghetto rhetoric and see where that gets you!
3 qualifications of my sequence of events:
1. My resolution of these contradictions ignores the bogus KJV ending of Mark (16:9-20), which scholars recognize as a mid-2nd century addition by Aristo of Pella and is written in a totally non-Marcan Greek style.
2. My resolution also recognizes that the Gospel writers are inconsistent and unclear about how many women go to Christ's tomb and then to go to report to the disciples.
3. Matthew's piece on the Roman guards at the tomb (28:2-4, 11-15) involves an angel and is blended into his empty tomb narrative, but makes no mention of an encounter with this angel by the women.
#32 Yeshua1, 38 minutes ago
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LOL, as usual you pontificate from Ghetto ignorance. I have many commentaries on the 4th Gospel and only 1 old and out-of-date one does. The gold standard of Johannine commentaries is the massive 2-volune commentary by Raymond Brown, a major NT scholar. In his commentary he advocates identifying the Beloved Disciple as John the son of Zebedee. But in a later book on the 4th Gospel he recants that claim and joins the scholarly consensus that the identity of the BD is unknown, but is certain not John the son of Zebedee. This skeptical scholarly consensus is the reason why I've spent 25 years gathering evidence for Jesus' brother James as the BD. I have presented just a few points from that research here and you have no clue as to how to embark on a point-by-point refutation.
Yeshua: "There are NO conflicts that have no reasonable explanation, as there can be harmonized, check a Bible Harmony on the 4 Gospels!
It is precisely a good Gospel harmony that I used in a Bible study that draws attention to these and other apparent inconsistencies. As a result, all but 1 member of my Bible study got an MDiv or Masters in Theology from reputable seminaries and grad schools that you would consider liberal! Ha!
As for your claim that "there are no conflicts that have no reasonable explanation, my OP offers a long list of such apparent contradictions and you seem to have no clue about how to harmonize these difficulties. I have offered my harmonization, and if you think differently, put up or shut up--go through my OP list and explain how you would remove these problems. Or just do what you're doing and keep pontificating unjustified Baptist Ghetto rhetoric and see where that gets you!
3 qualifications of my sequence of events:
1. My resolution of these contradictions ignores the bogus KJV ending of Mark (16:9-20), which scholars recognize as a mid-2nd century addition by Aristo of Pella and is written in a totally non-Marcan Greek style.
2. My resolution also recognizes that the Gospel writers are inconsistent and unclear about how many women go to Christ's tomb and then to go to report to the disciples.
3. Matthew's piece on the Roman guards at the tomb (28:2-4, 11-15) involves an angel and is blended into his empty tomb narrative, but makes no mention of an encounter with this angel by the women.
#32 Yeshua1, 38 minutes ago
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Raymond brown was a catholic scholar who held to at best moderate positions on the scriptures, so why not look into the views of those who are noted as being true scholars on John?Yeshua: "Majority of reputable NT experts still hold that same John wrote all books ascribed to his Name!"
LOL, as usual you pontificate from Ghetto ignorance. I have many commentaries on the 4th Gospel and only 1 old and out-of-date one does. The gold standard of Johannine commentaries is the massive 2-volune commentary by Raymond Brown, a major NT scholar. In his commentary he advocates identifying the Beloved Disciple as John the son of Zebedee. But in a later book on the 4th Gospel he recants that claim and joins the scholarly consensus that the identity of the BD is unknown, but is certain not John the son of Zebedee. This skeptical scholarly consensus is the reason why I've spent 25 years gathering evidence for Jesus' brother James as the BD. I have presented just a few points from that research here and you have no clue as to how to embark on a point-by-point refutation.
Yeshua: "There are NO conflicts that have no reasonable explanation, as there can be harmonized, check a Bible Harmony on the 4 Gospels!
It is precisely a good Gospel harmony that I used in a Bible study that draws attention to these and other apparent inconsistencies. As a result, all but 1 member of my Bible study got an MDiv or Masters in Theology from reputable seminaries and grad schools that you would consider liberal! Ha!
As for your claim that "there are no conflicts that have no reasonable explanation, my OP offers a long list of such apparent contradictions and you seem to have no clue about how to harmonize these difficulties. I have offered my harmonization, and if you think differently, put up or shut up--go through my OP list and explain how you would remove these problems. Or just do what you're doing and keep pontificating unjustified Baptist Ghetto rhetoric and see where that gets you!
3 qualifications of my sequence of events:
1. My resolution of these contradictions ignores the bogus KJV ending of Mark (16:9-20), which scholars recognize as a mid-2nd century addition by Aristo of Pella and is written in a totally non-Marcan Greek style.
2. My resolution also recognizes that the Gospel writers are inconsistent and unclear about how many women go to Christ's tomb and then to go to report to the disciples.
3. Matthew's piece on the Roman guards at the tomb (28:2-4, 11-15) involves an angel and is blended into his empty tomb narrative, but makes no mention of an encounter with this angel by the women.
#32 Yeshua1, 38 minutes ago
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