The Seven Heads

[kyredneck]

".....a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems....."

What, as much as is possible in your own words, do you believe those seven heads represent?

 

[kyredneck]

Also, what position or view of the book would you classify yourself (not neccessarily only one):

Historicist - sees in Revelation a broad view of history
Preterist - Revelation mostly refers to the events of the apostolic era (first century)
Futurist - Revelation describes future events
Idealist, or Symbolic - holds that Revelation is purely symbolic,
(taken from Wiki)

(someone correct me if I'm wrong, I believe amills would fall into the last category)

 

[Tom Bryant]

".....a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems....."

What, as much as is possible in your own words, do you believe those seven heads represent?

You realize that highlighted, underlined statement means most of us won't post a word... :tongue3: We futurists can only quote what LaHaye and Lindsay have written... :tongue3:

I am mainly a futurist. (side note: I think the churches in Rev 2-3 were real historical churches in John's time and not a picture of the progression or regression of the church age) I think the great red dragon represents Satan and his control of a future conglomeration of national or idealogical powers. But I have no idea what those real things will be. While i am pre-mill and pre-trib, I also like your statement about being a pan-millenialist. God will make sure it pans out in the end.

 

[kyredneck]

You realize that highlighted, underlined statement means most of us won't post a word... :tongue3: We futurists can only quote what LaHaye and Lindsay have written... :tongue3:...

Well, I hope not. Like you in your last thread, my intent was/is to keep the replies brief and concise, and avoid any long treatises on the virtues of a particular view. I used to be a Hal Lindsay fan when he first came on the scene with 'The Late Great Planet Earth', and 'There's A New World Coming', and 'Satan Is Alive And Well On Planet Earth' (I think that's all I read of him). And, if memory serves me right, someone correct me if I'm wrong (it's been 38 yrs, I no longer have his books), even he had the seven heads correctly pegged in 'The Late Great Planet Earth'. Four of the heads are synonymous with the beasts of Daniel. I expected, and I could be wrong, that the interpretation of the seven heads would be 'common ground' that all views share. I have to go, duty calls again, I've more to say; note the passages below; Rev was written during the sixth head.

3.....a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems..... Rev 12

1....... a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns, and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems......Rev 13

3.....a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:
10 and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while. Rev 17

 

[pinoybaptist]

Also, what position or view of the book would you classify yourself (not neccessarily only one):

Historicist - sees in Revelation a broad view of history
Preterist - Revelation mostly refers to the events of the apostolic era (first century)
Futurist - Revelation describes future events
Idealist, or Symbolic - holds that Revelation is purely symbolic,
(taken from Wiki)

(someone correct me if I'm wrong, I believe amills would fall into the last category)

Bro, I am mainly Preterist with a mix of futurist.
I believe that historically, the context is in the time of the Emperor Domitian and when Emperor worship had started to really put a pressure on Christians.
Mind you, this wasn't a religious thing more than a political one.
Other events, particularly the Great White Throne judgment is futurist.
I'm also amillenialist, but I think the symbolism can be interpreted by knowing the context of the times.
I believe the Revelation was not written to be mysterious.
It was written to a particular audience who knew exactly what the symbols and the numbers mean.

 

[webdog]

The seven heads are the seven continents. It is speaking of the entire world, and the totality of all nations in unison (10 horns) coming together against Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

".....a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns..

Yes, I believe that was my 10th grade accounting teacher.


:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Jerome]

(someone correct me if I'm wrong, I believe amills would fall into the last category)

William Mounce, The Book of Revelation, quoting amillennialist Abraham Kuyper's The Revelation of St. John:

Kuyper insists that Revelation has nothing to do with the history of the world prior to the eve of the parousia. He writes that "the only proper conlusion is . . . that we are still in the normal period of history, and that the events which form the prophetic content of the Apocalypse shall only come to pass, when the end of the World is at hand."

Sounds like futurist:thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

Hello Pinoy, thanks for commenting.

Bro, I am mainly Preterist with a mix of futurist.
I believe that historically, the context is in the time of the Emperor Domitian and when Emperor worship had started to really put a pressure on Christians.

When it comes to Rev, I am a conglomeration of all four views, I find merit in all of them. But mostly I am preterist/amill. I believe the book was written during the reign of Nero.

Mind you, this wasn't a religious thing more than a political one.

Thank you. I guess I knew that already, you just articulated it for me.

Other events, particularly the Great White Throne judgment is futurist.

Agree.

I'm also amillenialist, but I think the symbolism can be interpreted by knowing the context of the times.

I think the symbolism can be interpreted by keeping with the continuity of how those symbols are used throughout scripture. The message of the book is contained in signs and symbols and picture stories that are at all times connected to the rest of scripture, old and new. Revelation is the capstone of the bible; it’s a treasure trove of scriptural truths and there is great reward in delving into it.

I believe the Revelation was not written to be mysterious.

Heheh, I believe the Lord intended it to be mysterious to keep us busy digging into it and find joy in doing so. I do believe the recipients of the original letters were more attuned to the immediate message contained therein than we are today.

It was written to a particular audience who knew exactly what the symbols and the numbers mean.

Mostly agree.

 

[kyredneck]

Hello webdog, thanks for commenting.

The seven heads are the seven continents. It is speaking of the entire world, and the totality of all nations in unison (10 horns) coming together against Christ.

I respectfully disagree that the seven heads represent the seven continents because of the meaning of them given in 17:9,10. But there is a totality involved in all political powers that's ever been on earth that has had 'enmity with the woman and her seed'. I'm going to jump ahead and state what I believe (and many others also, amills included) the seven heads to represent. They are the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman, and Holy Roman empires. The book was written during the sixth head, the Roman empire.

 

[kyredneck]

Hello Amy, thanks for being cute. Humor is a good thing.

Yes, I believe that was my 10th grade accounting teacher. :smilewinkgrin:

That 'ol dragon has his kin everywhere. I believe I had his brother for an immediate supervisor for years.

 

[kyredneck]

Hello Jerome. Thanks for the quote.

William Mounce, The Book of Revelation, quoting amillennialist Abraham Kuyper's The Revelation of St. John:

Sounds like futurist:thumbs:

Actually, it was my intent to find some 'common ground' in Rev that all views hold; I think I may have wrongly chose the seven heads, although I do know of this being common ground with some from all views. Needless to say I disagree with Kuyper's statement,...”the events which form the prophetic content of the Apocalypse shall only come to pass, when the end of the World is at hand." More on that later, I hope

 

[kyredneck]

Duty has constraints on my time right now. If I'm slow in responding please understand.

 

[kyredneck]

A conservative, premillennial, or futurist, interpretation of the seven heads from 'The Apocalypse', by Joseph A. Seiss:

“John further saw this Woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. This beast is the same described in chapter 13. He is referred to here, not so much to make us better acquainted with him, as to give us a full understanding of the Great Harlot and her relationships. The “wisdom” or inner sense and meaning of the presentation is, that “the seven heads are seven mountains, where the Woman sitteth upon them, and are seven kings.” These are the words that are supposed to fix the application of the picture to the city of Rome, as Rome is called a city of seven hills. But a flimsier basis for such a controlling and all-conditioning conclusion is perhaps nowhere to be found. The seven hills of the city of Rome, to begin with, are not mountains, as every one who has been there can testify; and if they were, they are not more characteristic of the situation of Rome than the seven hills are characteristic of Jerusalem. But the taking of them as literal hills or mountains at all is founded upon a total misreading of the angel's words.”

“A mountain, or prominent elevation on the surface of the earth, is one of the common scriptural images, symbols, or representatives of a kingdom, regal dominion, empire, or established authority. So David, speaking of the vicissitudes which he experienced as the king of Israel, says: “Lord, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong”-margin, “settled strength for my mountain;” meaning his kingdom and dominion. (Ps. 30:7). So the Lord in his threat against the throne and power of Babylon said: “Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.” (Jer. 51:25). So the kingdom of the Messiah is likened to a “a stone, which became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.” Dan 2:35). And this is exactly the sense in which the angel uses the word here, as he himself tells us. He does not say “the seven heads are seven mountains, where the Woman sitteth upon them”, and there leave off; but he adds immediately, “and they are seven kings”, or personified kingdoms. The mountains, then, are not piles of material rocks and earth at all, but royal or imperial powers, declared to be such by the angel himself.......”

“Of these seven regal mountains, John was told “the five are fallen,” dead, passed away, their day over; “the one is” that is, was standing, at that moment, was then in sway and power; “ the other is not yet come, and when he shall come, hemust continue a little time.” What regal mountain, then, was in power at the time John wrote? There can be no question on that point; it was the Roman empire. Thus, then, we ascertain and identify the sixth in the list, which shows what sort of kings the angel meant. Of the same class with this, and belonging to the same category, there are five others - five which had then already run their course and passed away. But what five imperial mountains like Rome had been and gone, up to that time? Is history so obscure as not to tell us with unmistakable certainty? Preceding Rome the world had but five great names or nationalities answering to imperial Rome, and those scarce a schoolboy ought to miss. They are Greece, Persia, Babylon, Assyria, and Egypt; no more, and no less. And these all were imperial powers like Rome. Here, then, are six of these regal mountains; the seventh has not yet come...........”

When I was still premil many years ago, there was a saying in the circle I was in; “You haven't really read a commentary on Revelation until you've read Seiss.” So, of course, I bought the book, and sure enough, he is very sound in his applying of scriptural symbolism to interpret much of the Apocalypse, and one can't help but to learn much in that area by reading him. Although I'm no longer premill there's still much that I agree with him on, and I reference his book quite often.

“I have read with much care more than fifty book on The Revelation. Of these, but two have commended themselves to my judgment as Biblical, sound and spiritual. Of these two, the best is Seiss.” —C.I. Scofield, author, Scofield Reference Bible

“An exhaustive, pre-millennial exposition by a well known Lutheran writer of the past century.”—Cyril J Barber, The Minister's Library

 

[kyredneck]

A conservative, historical interpretation of the seven heads from 'A Brief Commentary On Revelation', by Edward H. Overby, A.B., B.D., D.D., then Professor at Lexington Baptist College (a sound conservative school which is now defunct, and sadly missed by many). Excerpts:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“In verses 12-14 the 10 horns are explained. The 10 horns represent 10 kings, 12, which represent 10 kingdoms. In the time of John these 10 “have received no kingdom as yet.” Since this is also true of the 7th head, verse 10, and the only one that had not controlled the beast up to John's time, then it follows that the 10 horns must be on the 7th head. The 7th head with ten horns which was to come and rule the beast after John's day is different from all the heads before it. This is one head having the same basic civilization and being the same basic people, the Germanic tribes, yet they are many, 10 horns. The Germanic tribes were divided politically into a number of separate governments ruling at the time. There were 10 that originally set up kingdoms in the former Roman empire. These ten developed and changed in many ways throughout history. They were divided and subdivided into many many kingdoms and they consolidated and united and conquered so that they were just a few kingdoms. Their boundaries have changed greatly through the years. These changes we have mentioned are of no significance as far as the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are concerned. The changes have confused some as to the identity of the 10 horns.”

“Other scripture can help us interpret. In Daniel 8, the Persian empire is represented as a ram with two horns which represented the Medes and Persians at the beginning of this empire. The horn of the Medes loses it's power in time and Persia really controls it all. The changes that brought this about are not explained in the vision, since it is not necessary to accomplish the Lord's purpose in the passage. The Lord explains only the beginning so that we can identify the Ram.”

“In Daniel 8, the Grecian empire is represented by a he goat with one horn, Alexander the Great. When Alexander the Great dies the horn is broken and 4 horns take it's place. This is what happened at the beginning after Alexander's death. His empire was divided into 4 kingdoms, but this didn't last long. Soon it became 3 kingdoms, and there were many boundary changes. The Lord does not explain all these details, for it is not necessary. Still most Bible scholars readily see this is the Grecian empire regardless of the omissions of such details, especially since the Lord says the he goat is Greece.....”

“Daniel 8 can help us understand the 10 horns of the 7th head in Revelation 17. The 6th head was in John's day so it must be the Roman empire. The one that followed the fall of Rome was the Germanic tribes made up of 10 horns or kingdoms to begin with. Some secular historians list ten at the beginning of the power of the Germanic tribes in their history books. In reading these books it is obvious they know nothing about Revelation. They list 10 only because they found them in their historical research. Thes 10 changed soon and have greatly changed through the years in the number of governments, boundaries, etc. But the Bible indicates there were 10 to begin with and this is to help us idnetify this 7th head.”

Excerpts from Brother Overbey's book, 'A Brief Commentary On Daniel':

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

 

[kyredneck]

34 Thou [Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon] sawest till that a stone [the Church] was cut out without hands, which smote the image [Rome] upon its feet that were of iron and clay, and brake [through the Christianized Germanic tribes] them in pieces [two feet, ten toes, Eastern and Western Holy Roman empires].
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and gold, broken in pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone [the Church] that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
39 And after thee [Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon] shall arise another kingdom [Medo-Persian] inferior to thee ; and another third kingdom [Greece] of brass , which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom [Rome] shall be strong as iron , forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things; and as iron that crusheth all these, shall it break in pieces and crush.
44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom [the Church] which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone [the Church] was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake [through those Christianized Germanic tribes] in pieces [the Roman empire into ten horns] the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. Dan 2

 

[kyredneck]

Ten Trivia

The 10th man from Adam in the genealogy in Genesis is Noah, the father of the nations and of every gentile on earth came from his three sons.

The 10th chapter of Genesis is the first mention of the origins of the nations (gentiles) through the generations of the sons of Noah.

The 10th chapter of Acts is where the gospel is first preached to the gentiles (after a thorough persuasion of Peter by the Spirit), and from which Peter was led to proclaim, “Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation (gentiles) he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness is acceptable to him”.

Peter was accompanied by 10 men (Acts 11) when he was sent to the gentile Cornelius.

The thousand year ( 10 x 10 x10 ) reign of Christ when He rules the nations (gentiles) with a rod of iron.

David, as a type of Christ, had 10 wives.

Solomon, as a type of Christ, had 700 wives and 300 concubines (10 x 10 x 10 ).

The 10 Germanic (Teutonic) tribes of the Franks, Angles, Saxons, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Alamanni, Burgundians, Jutes, and Lombards (ancestors of white folk and descendants of Japheth, [see Noah's prophecy, Gen 9:27] through Gomer) broke up the Roman Empire, the 6th head of the beast in Revelations, to become the 7th head with 10 horns; also the same 10 horned beast of Daniel 7 with even more details provided in Daniel 2 by the stone striking the feet of the image and breaking it to pieces; i.e. two feet, ten toes representing the division into the Eastern and Western Roman Empires.

The metric system which is a decimal (base 10) system, was developed by the French (the Germanic tribe Franks), and is commonly referred to as the International System of Units (SI).

 

[olegig]

34 Thou [Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon] sawest till that a stone [the Church] was cut out without hands, which smote the image [Rome] upon its feet that were of iron and clay,......

Most all commentaries I have read compare the stone to Christ Himself.
I do grant some see Peter as the stone with a church built upon Peter; but I don't agree with them.
I have never seen a commentary compare the stone to the Church but I suppose it could be so because Christ does work through the Church to spread the gospel which will overcome the things of the world.

But it seems if the Church is the stone of Dan, then at least somewhere Paul would have referred to the Church, the Body, as the stone.

Ephesians 2:20 (King James Version)
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Do those particular commentators give scriptural reference for their belief the stone represents the Church?
I would enjoy checking their feelings against scripture for myself.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, of course the stone is Christ just as the Church is his body........

Post #16 was my own feeble attempt to paraphrase/amplify those verses, not from a commentary.

 

[kyredneck]

And before I get pounced on about those 'Christianized Teutonic tribes', I'm fully aware that not all of them embraced Christianity as a whole. 'Off the cuff', take the Vandals (from where we get our word vandalism) for instance, who were known for their objectiveless destructions; or the Saxons, who some of the other 'Christianized Germanic tribes' attempted genocide on because of their obstinate rejection of Christianity.

......good figs and bad figs.......


........not all Israel is of Israel....... but God uses them both.