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The sheep and the goats?

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In Matthew 25: 31-46 Jesus teaches about the end of the age of grace. He will begin is Millennial reign, sitting on His thrown.

Some have read this passage and conclude, mistakenly in my opinion, that Christ's division will be based on works.

But I believe "giving to Christ what He needed" refers to giving Christ, by those physically living at that time, trust, love and commitment.

In verse 40 we see that the sheep are "brothers" [siblings] of Christ, thus those having been born anew as children of God.

And on the other left side, the goats are described as not giving Christ what He needed. Perhaps they had never heard the gospel because it was not presented or because like Soil #1, they had lost their ability to understand the spiritual milk of the gospel. And of course, the many who had sought the narrow door. but never finding it, would have failed to fully embrace the gospel, like Soil #2 or #3 of Matthew 13. Their love for and commitment to Christ was not sufficient, such that Christ would or had become the overriding priority of their lives.

The key take away here, as in Matthew 7:21-23 is to do the "will" of the Father, which John presents with crystal clarity:



“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in [into] Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” [John 6:40 NASB]
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
In Matthew 25: 31-46 Jesus teaches about the end of the age of grace. He will begin is Millennial reign, sitting on His thrown.

Some have read this passage and conclude, mistakenly in my opinion, that Christ's division will be based on works.

But I believe "giving to Christ what He needed" refers to giving Christ, by those physically living at that time, trust, love and commitment.

In verse 40 we see that the sheep are "brothers" [siblings] of Christ, thus those having been born anew as children of God.

And on the other left side, the goats are described as not giving Christ what He needed. Perhaps they had never heard the gospel because it was not presented or because like Soil #1, they had lost their ability to understand the spiritual milk of the gospel. And of course, the many who had sought the narrow door. but never finding it, would have failed to fully embrace the gospel, like Soil #2 or #3 of Matthew 13. Their love for and commitment to Christ was not sufficient, such that Christ would or had become the overriding priority of their lives.

The key take away here, as in Matthew 7:21-23 is to do the "will" of the Father, which John presents with crystal clarity:



“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in [into] Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” [John 6:40 NASB]

I see this a different way, Van.

Christ is dividing nations at His Second Coming not individuals, on something they didn't do for Him.

Based on what had just happened at His Second Coming, He has just destroyed the Anti-Christ and his armies of many nations joined to together to destroy Israel.

The goat nations are those nations that joined with the Anti-Christ against Israel, with the sheep nations being those who tried to help Israel.

This judgment of the nations is based on the "righteous" dealings with God's chosen people by the nations during the Great Tribulation.

The judgment falls on the leaders of these nations with those leaders against Israel not being allowed into the Kingdom. It's not the entire nations that are sent into everlasting punishment.

The lost on earth that survived the Great Tribulation will at this time be allowed to accept Christ and enter into the 1000 year reign, with Israel fulfilling their calling during this time to take Christ to the world, but the leaders of the nations against Israel who joined in with the Anti-Christ are rejected.

There were probably many people in the goat nations that conspired against Israel as well to destroy them, they are probably numbered along with the leaders of those nations in rejection. It's believed by many that they are all executed, and eternally lost.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
I see this a different way, Van.

Christ is dividing nations at His Second Coming not individuals, on something they didn't do for Him.

Based on what had just happened at His Second Coming, He has just destroyed the Anti-Christ and his armies of many nations joined to together to destroy Israel.

The goat nations are those nations that joined with the Anti-Christ against Israel, with the sheep nations being those who tried to help Israel.

This judgment of the nations is based on the "righteous" dealings with God's chosen people by the nations during the Great Tribulation.

The judgment falls on the leaders of these nations with those leaders against Israel not being allowed into the Kingdom. It's not the entire nations that are sent into everlasting punishment.

The lost on earth that survived the Great Tribulation will at this time be allowed to accept Christ and enter into the 1000 year reign, with Israel fulfilling their calling during this time to take Christ to the world, but the leaders of the nations against Israel who joined in with the Anti-Christ are rejected.

There were probably many people in the goat nations that conspired against Israel as well to destroy them, they are probably numbered along with the leaders of those nations in rejection. It's believed by many that they are all executed, and eternally lost.
I see the Sheep and Goats as simply the Save and Lost NOT do to the works in the account being what is measured and weighed. Revelation 20:11-15.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I see the Sheep and Goats as simply the Save and Lost NOT do to the works in the account being what is measured and weighed. Revelation 20:11-15.

It's not about salvation, it's about justice being served on God's word.

God has always loved and saved Israel from extinction, and He will fulfill His promise in gathering all who caused harm to Israel and serving justice.

Joel 3:2

"I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."

The Valley of Jehoshaphat means, "Jehovah has judged."

This is the Battle of Armageddon where God does His judging at His Second Coming. But these armies are not all who will be judged, first order of business after He has destroyed the Anti-Christ and those armies from all the nations are those who were behind and conspired to the destruction of His people.
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I see this a different way, Van.

Christ is dividing nations at His Second Coming not individuals, on something they didn't do for Him.

Based on what had just happened at His Second Coming, He has just destroyed the Anti-Christ and his armies of many nations joined to together to destroy Israel.

The goat nations are those nations that joined with the Anti-Christ against Israel, with the sheep nations being those who tried to help Israel.

This judgment of the nations is based on the "righteous" dealings with God's chosen people by the nations during the Great Tribulation.

The judgment falls on the leaders of these nations with those leaders against Israel not being allowed into the Kingdom. It's not the entire nations that are sent into everlasting punishment.

The lost on earth that survived the Great Tribulation will at this time be allowed to accept Christ and enter into the 1000 year reign, with Israel fulfilling their calling during this time to take Christ to the world, but the leaders of the nations against Israel who joined in with the Anti-Christ are rejected.

There were probably many people in the goat nations that conspired against Israel as well to destroy them, they are probably numbered along with the leaders of those nations in rejection. It's believed by many that they are all executed, and eternally lost.
Yes, our difference seems based on a different understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "nations." This word, in this grammatical form, nominative plural neuter, appears about 24 times in our NT. Here, I believe, the word is used to refer to the multitude of individuals all the living at that time, characterized by being "believers" and "non-believers," i.le the sheep and the goats. The use of the word "nations" was dictated by the group being comprised of Jews and Non-Jews. Several translations of Matthew 25:32 go with "the people of all nations" to make clear Jesus is dealing with them individually, rather than groups of people under various earthy governments.

Note in Acts 13:48 the word refers to Gentiles, non-Jews, some of which became individual believers. See also Galatians 3:8.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Yes, our difference seems based on a different understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "nations." This word, in this grammatical form, nominative plural neuter, appears about 24 times in our NT. Here, I believe, the word is used to refer to the multitude of individuals all the living at that time, characterized by being "believers" and "non-believers," i.le the sheep and the goats. The use of the word "nations" was dictated by the group being comprised of Jews and Non-Jews. Several translations of Matthew 25:32 go with "the people of all nations" to make clear Jesus is dealing with them individually, rather than groups of people under various earthy governments.

Note in Acts 13:48 the word refers to Gentiles, non-Jews, some of which became individual believers. See also Galatians 3:8.

Ok, just presenting the way I see it. We are not all going to agree and have different views on it.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Fine, but I wonder why all the people of one nation are sheep and another nation are goats. :)

It's the judgment of the nations that takes place immediately after Christ returns and destroys the Anti-Christ and the armies of the many nations with him.

Christ is judging who will enter into His earthly Kingdom of all the nations of the world. All of Israel is saved now as Paul told us "and all Israel shall be saved." Israel has seen Christ destroy the Anti-Christ and his armies right before their very eyes.

Christ now judges those nations based on how they handled His chosen people. Zechariah said that 2/3 of Israel will die in that battle of Armageddon.

The goat nation are all who took part with the Anti-Christ against Israel, and the sheep nations are those who tried to help Israel.

This is based on what what will happen when Christ returns. It's not about salvation, it's about judgment on the nations that that hated and wanted to destroy His chosen people.

Israel now takes up their calling of God to be the premiere nation in the world, the times of the Gentiles has ended.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It's the judgment of the nations that takes place immediately after Christ returns and destroys the Anti-Christ and the armies of the many nations with him.

Christ is judging who will enter into His earthly Kingdom of all the nations of the world. All of Israel is saved now as Paul told us "and all Israel shall be saved." Israel has seen Christ destroy the Anti-Christ and his armies right before their very eyes.

Christ now judges those nations based on how they handled His chosen people. Zechariah said that 2/3 of Israel will die in that battle of Armageddon.

The goat nation are all who took part with the Anti-Christ against Israel, and the sheep nations are those who tried to help Israel.

This is based on what what will happen when Christ returns. It's not about salvation, it's about judgment on the nations that that hated and wanted to destroy His chosen people.

Israel now takes up their calling of God to be the premiere nation in the world, the times of the Gentiles has ended.
Sheep and goats are individuals, born anew believers and non-believers.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I see this a different way, Van.

Christ is dividing nations at His Second Coming not individuals, on something they didn't do for Him.

Based on what had just happened at His Second Coming, He has just destroyed the Anti-Christ and his armies of many nations joined to together to destroy Israel.

The goat nations are those nations that joined with the Anti-Christ against Israel, with the sheep nations being those who tried to help Israel.

This judgment of the nations is based on the "righteous" dealings with God's chosen people by the nations during the Great Tribulation.

The judgment falls on the leaders of these nations with those leaders against Israel not being allowed into the Kingdom. It's not the entire nations that are sent into everlasting punishment.

The lost on earth that survived the Great Tribulation will at this time be allowed to accept Christ and enter into the 1000 year reign, with Israel fulfilling their calling during this time to take Christ to the world, but the leaders of the nations against Israel who joined in with the Anti-Christ are rejected.

There were probably many people in the goat nations that conspired against Israel as well to destroy them, they are probably numbered along with the leaders of those nations in rejection. It's believed by many that they are all executed, and eternally lost.
Just a note -

ἔθνη (translated "nations") means "people" (not "nations" as we sometimes think of nations...like the US, UK, etc).

I think of it like "people groups". In Christ we are a chosen people (a chosen nation, a chosen race).
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Sheep and goats are individuals, born anew believers and non-believers.

Yes, I agree, and they can also be nations.

Israel suffers many hardships and loss of life when the Anti-Christ invades them with the armies from many Gentile nations.

The goat nations are the ones that, "I was hungry and you gave me no meant (Israel) thirsty, and you gave ne no drink (Israel), a stranger and you took me not in (Israel), naked, or sick, and you clothed me not (Israel), in prison and you visited me not, (Israel).

All of this is what happens to Israel when they flee from the Anti-Christ and no one cares for them.

Matt. 24:15-21 is when this happens to Israel.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, I agree, and they can also be nations.

Israel suffers many hardships and loss of life when the Anti-Christ invades them with the armies from many Gentile nations.

The goat nations are the ones that, "I was hungry and you gave me no meant (Israel) thirsty, and you gave ne no drink (Israel), a stranger and you took me not in (Israel), naked, or sick, and you clothed me not (Israel), in prison and you visited me not, (Israel).

All of this is what happens to Israel when they flee from the Anti-Christ and no one cares for them.

Matt. 24:15-21 is when this happens to Israel.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
No "nation" can be a born anew sibling of Christ.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” [Galatians 3:8]

Here we see "Nations" used to refer to both Jews and Gentiles, and that justification comes through individual faith, not a national culture. Thus Matthew 25:32 refers to separating individual sheep, Jew or Gentile, from individual goats, Jew or Gentile.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Sheep and goats are individuals, born anew believers and non-believers.
I agree. Jesus said:

““I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” (Joh 10:9 NKJV)

Not "If any nation enters by Me."
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
No "nation" can be a born anew sibling of Christ.

Merry Christmas, Van!

I found this video that explains my position on the "judgment of the nations" better than I can explain it.

I'm a dispensationalist and my view will not agree with the Reformed, it's just oil and water.

This video is from Derek Prince and it's not as thorough as I would like but you'll get the point.

It's about 13 min., and again it's the dispensational view. I hope you can take something from it.

 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I agree. Jesus said:

““I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” (Joh 10:9 NKJV)

Not "If any nation enters by Me."
Thanks, the Greek pronoun translated "anyone" refers to one or some of a group, thus grammatically not the whole nation.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Merry Christmas, Van!

I found this video that explains my position on the "judgment of the nations" better than I can explain it.

I'm a dispensationalist and my view will not agree with the Reformed, it's just oil and water.

This video is from Derek Prince and it's not as thorough as I would like but you'll get the point.

It's about 13 min., and again it's the dispensational view. I hope you can take something from it.

Right back at you - Marry Christmas.

The OT verse Joel 3:2 reads as follows:
Then I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. I will enter into judgment against them there concerning my people Israel who are my inheritance, whom they scattered among the nation.​

Note His People, Israel, are scattered among the nations. Note that in Galatians 3, all born anew believers ARE His people, not just those of a blood line.

BTW, I am NOT reformed, I am baptist, and I am not a traditional dispensationalist, but a progressive dispensationalist.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Right back at you - Marry Christmas.

The OT verse Joel 3:2 reads as follows:
Then I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. I will enter into judgment against them there concerning my people Israel who are my inheritance, whom they scattered among the nation.​

Note His People, Israel, are scattered among the nations. Note that in Galatians 3, all born anew believers ARE His people, not just those of a blood line.

BTW, I am NOT reformed, I am baptist, and I am not a traditional dispensationalist, but a progressive dispensationalist.

The Reformed view denies the separation of the Church and Israel, so they will shoot down my view immediately.

I was just hoping you could get a better view of what I was saying earlier.

The video was not in detail but more less an overview, there's much more to add, but I think the main points were there.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
In Matthew 25: 31-46 Jesus teaches about the end of the age of grace. He will begin is Millennial reign, sitting on His thrown.

Some have read this passage and conclude, mistakenly in my opinion, that Christ's division will be based on works.

But I believe "giving to Christ what He needed" refers to giving Christ, by those physically living at that time, trust, love and commitment.

In verse 40 we see that the sheep are "brothers" [siblings] of Christ, thus those having been born anew as children of God.

And on the other left side, the goats are described as not giving Christ what He needed. Perhaps they had never heard the gospel because it was not presented or because like Soil #1, they had lost their ability to understand the spiritual milk of the gospel. And of course, the many who had sought the narrow door. but never finding it, would have failed to fully embrace the gospel, like Soil #2 or #3 of Matthew 13. Their love for and commitment to Christ was not sufficient, such that Christ would or had become the overriding priority of their lives.

The key take away here, as in Matthew 7:21-23 is to do the "will" of the Father, which John presents with crystal clarity:



“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in [into] Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” [John 6:40 NASB]

Consider this argument for literal and historical interpretation which leaves opinion out.


A most important adverb for understanding. If understanding takes place one must believe this word in the text.

5119 tote [tot -eh]

from (the neuter of) 3588 and 3753; adv;



AV-then 149, that time 4, when 1, not tr 5; 159

1) then
2) at that time

This is the Olivet Discourse of Jesus Christ, answering three questions of four apostles. It took place on late Wednesday eve after Jesus left the temple for the last time, a symbolic gesture (Ichabod). This was during the last week of the ministry of Jesus on the earth before his crucifixion and resurrection. For 4 straight days he had been ministering to Israel in the temple, arriving early in the mornings and staying late in the day and spending his nights on the Mount of Olives. His throne and place of his earthly residence of King of the Jews and of the world is in the temple in Jerusalem. He had ridden in to Jerusalem on day one on a donkey proclaiming himself as King of the Jews. When Jesus Christ our Lord returns to earth, he will abide in the Ezekiel temple. Here are how important the individual words of the KJV are.

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

He will sit IN the throne of his glory. If your Bible does not say "in" the throne, you probably are not going to learn this.


Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mt 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mt 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.
Mt 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mt 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

The church and this age is not in view here. It is hidden at this time. It is not yet revealed. This is about the earthly kingdom and his second coming.

This is a progressive time line from the destruction of Herod's Temple in 70 AD to the glorious inauguration of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ in righteousness on the earth.

We must believe the words or we have opinions.
 
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