The "shibboleth" of the Biblical doctrine of Justification

[The Biblicist]

Justification is based on faith, not works. This view is not called "easy believism." And the faith in view is the person's faith which God has credited as righteousness. The "gift of faith" (meaning instilled by irresistible grace) is no where in view.

We are saved by grace through faith. Our faith provides our access to saving grace. Romans 5:2.

Your post is oxymoronic. You cannot possibly justify your statement that you believe that "Justification is based on faith, not works" when you deny that faith is of grace! Why? Because the Bible offers only two possible sources for anything related to salvation and that is grace or work and you deny that faith is of grace. You deny it because if you admit faith is of grace then the phrase "by grace are ye saved" must be inclusive of faith also as faith is of grace. On the other hand if you deny faith is of grace then you have no other alternative than to embrace faith is of works as in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:9 there is no other alternative source but works in contrast to grace.

So van, is faith of grace or of works? There is no middle ground as Paul explicitly demonstrates in Romans 11:6.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yet another material false statement from Biblicist. He would misrepresent a stop sign.

Discipline someone does not put them in Christ, only God does that.

You are the one that made the contrasting alternatives of what a person does not have to do to be saved versus what he does have to do, so don't blame me for merely quoting your words.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hi Hank, another question for contemplation, why does scripture say "your faith" rather than implanted faith? Because it is our faith, which God credits as righteousness. There would be no need to credit implanted faith as righteousness. Think about it!

Why did Jesus speak in parables if no one could believe? Why did God harden the hearts of the Jews in Romans 11, it they were unable to believe. How could the men of Matthew 23:13 be entering the kingdom of Heaven unless they had the ability to believe in God?

And again no scripture says God compelled our faith, it is a fiction.

If I give you a dollar is it "your dollar"? If God gives you faith is it "your faith"? Van is faith of works or of grace? The Bible provides no other options so which is it Van?

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank, another question for contemplation, why does scripture say "your faith" rather than implanted faith? Because it is our faith, which God credits as righteousness. There would be no need to credit implanted faith as righteousness. Think about it!

Why did Jesus speak in parables if no one could believe? Why did God harden the hearts of the Jews in Romans 11, it they were unable to believe. How could the men of Matthew 23:13 be entering the kingdom of Heaven unless they had the ability to believe in God?

Hi Van,

Personally I can't align myself with either C or A theology. That is not a cop-out.

I lean more towards the C position however questions and scripture like yours keep me from a full commitment to C theology.
Other questions and scripture keep me from a commitment to A philosophy.

Just being honest.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL, "your faith" appears in scripture more than a 10 times, but "instilled" faith cannot be found. It is a fiction.

To repeat once again, we are saved by grace through faith. Therefore our faith precedes saving grace. It is a lock. When you enter a room through a door, you go through the door before you enter the room. Our faith provides our access to saving grace. Romans 5:2

Pay no attention to those who deny scripture after scripture after scripture, such as Ephesians 2:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 5:2 and so forth.

If I give you a dollar is it "your dollar" and still a gift? If God gives you faith, is it "your faith" and still a gift? Come on Van, is faith of works or of grace - there are no other options in the context of Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:9. So which is it Van?

 

[Van]

Folks, fiction is fiction. It is our faith that provides our access to saving grace. Romans 5:2
Was a counter verse cited to overturn this biblical truth? Nope.

it seems the nameless doctrine advocates cannot say through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

 

[HankD]

Hi Hank, another question for contemplation, why does scripture say "your faith" rather than implanted faith? Because it is our faith, which God credits as righteousness. There would be no need to credit implanted faith as righteousness. Think about it!

Why did Jesus speak in parables if no one could believe? Why did God harden the hearts of the Jews in Romans 11, it they were unable to believe. How could the men of Matthew 23:13 be entering the kingdom of Heaven unless they had the ability to believe in God?

And again no scripture says God compelled our faith, it is a fiction.

Another C argument to contemplate - not exactly from scripture so - take it for what is worth:

When I was a young man a friend of mine from church and I were fishing buddies.
In the late summer we would go fishing to a certain place on the Mystic River in MA.
We fished for giant carp (a choice dish in Europe) upwards to 20-30 lbs.

We would go to places where there were mulberry trees.
The Mystic River had tons of "trash fish" so we couldn't use worms or any other bait live or artificial.
We used mulberries because ONLY the carp would bite.

A poor but effective analogy.
No one forces the "elect" but they are the only ones who will "take the bait" of the gospel of forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

HankD

 

[Van]

Since the church has tares, it seems those not yet chosen also like mulberries. Jesus spoke in parables to preclude understanding (taking the bait). God harden hearts to preclude understanding, taking the bait.
The truth is before us. Jesus said "your faith has saved you." He did not say "the faith I implanted saved you. No need to believe what scripture does not say, over and against what scripture plainly teaches.

 

[JamesL]

I believe the argument about where faith originates, who has it and how it gets focused, etc... is actually based on a complete misnomer from both sides.

Faith is portrayed as a substantive element (like a dollar) which is "given"

Ok, did God give everyone a magical dollar and the we decide to put it into the "eternal life" slot machine and pull the handle?

Or did God give only some the will to go stand in line and then get the dollar right when we get to the slot machine?

Faith isn't like a spiritual water gun that ee point at Christ and shoot. Faith is simply being convinced - that He is the Christ, who is God in the flesh, who died in our stead, and rose again, and is coming with judgment.

God enlightens us and we believe. Period. That's "saving" faith. It is a gift, not from us. But it's not like a package we open

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe the argument about where faith originates, who has it and how it gets focused, etc... is actually based on a complete misnomer from both sides.

Faith is portrayed as a substantive element (like a dollar) which is "given"

Ok, did God give everyone a magical dollar and the we decide to put it into the "eternal life" slot machine and pull the handle?

Or did God give only some the will to go stand in line and then get the dollar right when we get to the slot machine?

Faith isn't like a spiritual water gun that ee point at Christ and shoot. Faith is simply being convinced - that He is the Christ, who is God in the flesh, who died in our stead, and rose again, and is coming with judgment.

God enlightens us and we believe. Period. That's "saving" faith. It is a gift, not from us. But it's not like a package we open

You are missing the point completely. The point is that just because something is yours does not deny it had been previously given to you. Second, and the point you are really missing is there is no other alternative to grace than works within the immediate contexts of Romand 4;16 and Ephesians 2:9 and there is no third option according to Romans 11:6.

So James, which is it? Is faith of grace or of works. It cannot be of both according to Romans 11:6 as they cannot be mixed. If you say works then you are saying you are justified by works (faith of works). So which is it?

Lets have a little honesty and quit side stepping the real issue.

 

[The Biblicist]

Since the church has tares, it seems those not yet chosen also like mulberries. Jesus spoke in parables to preclude understanding (taking the bait). God harden hearts to preclude understanding, taking the bait.
The truth is before us. Jesus said "your faith has saved you." He did not say "the faith I implanted saved you. No need to believe what scripture does not say, over and against what scripture plainly teaches.

You are avoiding the issue and you know it. is faith of works or of grace? It can be of both (Rom. 11:6). Just because it is "your faith" does not mean it was not a gift from God to you. So which is it? Of works or of grace. If you say it is of works then you are saying "we are justfied by works (faith being of works). If you say it is of grace then to be "saved by grace" is inclusive of faith.

In both contexts (Rom. 4;16; Eph. 2:9) you are given only two possible sources for faith - either it is of works or it is of Grace.

When you are wrong and hardened in your error the best thing to do is avoid the question and run as fast as you can to change the subject.

 

[The Biblicist]

Folks, fiction is fiction. It is our faith that provides our access to saving grace. Romans 5:2
Was a counter verse cited to overturn this biblical truth? Nope.

This text is speaking about those already justified by faith and in a saved condition and the grace they are accessing is not saving grace but sanctifying grace to live the Christian life. You are jerking a verse out of its context.

Regardless, the faith to access our standing (perfect tense verb) of grace is either "of grace" or "of works" as there is no middle position provided in scriptures (Rom. 11:6) or in the context of Romans 4:16 and Ephesians 2:9.

it seems the nameless doctrine advocates cannot say through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

I can say it all day long BECAUSE it does not refer to to initial justification by faith but refers to the perfect tense completed action that continues as a completed action in the SANCTIFICATION of our daily lives. You just use one misinterpreted text to justify another misinterpreted text. How about a little honesty?

 

[Van]

You are avoiding the issue and you know it. is faith of works or of grace? It can be of both (Rom. 11:6). Just because it is "your faith" does not mean it was not a gift from God to you. So which is it? Of works or of grace. If you say it is of works then you are saying "we are justfied by works (faith being of works). If you say it is of grace then to be "saved by grace" is inclusive of faith.

In both contexts (Rom. 4;16; Eph. 2:9) you are given only two possible sources for faith - either it is of works or it is of Grace.

When you are wrong and hardened in your error the best thing to do is avoid the question and run as fast as you can to change the subject.

1) You are no mind reader. You have no idea what I know. Therefore your first statement is not only false, it is obviously false.

2) Our faith in Christ is not "works" nor is it instilled, implanted, or hatched. We put our trust in the grace of God, as revealed in the gospel of Christ.

3) Because it is "our" faith, it means it not faith instilled, implanted or hatched. It means what it says, our faith. No verse says implanted faith has saved us. The whole idea is fiction.

4) Next we get misrepresentation, did I say justification by works? Nope, never. So why attribute it to me? Because you misrepresent others to hide your mistaken views.

5) Finally we get the saved by grace is "inclusive of faith." Twaddle to the max. Scripture teaches we are saved by grace through faith. Repeat, through faith. Stop rewriting the bible to pour your man-made twaddle into it.

Folks, pay no attention to those who seek to multi late scripture. We are saved by grace through faith. Thus our faith precedes saving grace. Romans 5:2 is crystal.

Romans 4:16 says faith is in accordance with grace, not inclusive of grace. Ephesians 2:9 says salvation is not of works. Therefore non-germane to the topic, just more obfuscation to create smoke and smears.

 

[Van]

To what does Romans 5:2 refer? Our faith in Christ providing access to the grace in which we stand. Therefore access to saving grace. Pay no attention to those who mutilate scripture after scripture. Every verse that shows the nameless doctrine is bogus is claimed to not say what it says. They say our faith does not provide access. We are not saved by grace through faith. God did not choose us for salvation through faith in the truth. Christ did not lay down His life as a ransom for all. On and on it goes.

 

[The Biblicist]

1) You are no mind reader. You have no idea what I know. Therefore your first statement is not only false, it is obviously false.

Don't have to be a mind reader, just have to be a reader of this forum as I have asked you at least five times to answer a direct question and you have avoided it in all previous posts and still avoiding it in this post.

1. Jesus said no man can and yet you are telling everyone the opposite.

2. Jesus said no man can except God provide that capability but you are telling everyone it is "your faith" when it is obvious it only becomes "your" faith after it is given to you as "no man can" produce it.

3. Faith is said to be the "fruit of the Spirit" but you are telling everyone it is the fruit of self "your faith" exluding the real source of faith which is the Spirit.

4. Faith is said to be "according to Grace" (Rom. 4;16) but you are denying it is of grace but of "you" and thus of works.

5. Christ denies faith is "your faith" apart from God granting it - Jn. 6:44

7. Faith is either of works or grace as there is no other options and Jesus denies your option.

2) Our faith in Christ is not "works" nor is it instilled, implanted, or hatched. We put our trust in the grace of God, as revealed in the gospel of Christ.

If it is not of works than it is of grace as there are no other options provided in scripture for any aspect of salvation and are you denying that faith is an aspect of salvation??? If we are saved by grace, then every aspect of salvation is of grace including faith unless you can prove that faith is no aspect of salvation????

3) Because it is "our" faith, it means it not faith instilled, implanted or hatched. It means what it says, our faith. No verse says implanted faith has saved us. The whole idea is fiction.

It can't be "your faith" with regard to origin simply because Christ denies that any man has that capability apart from divine intervention "except the Father draw him" and therefore that capability must be given or it does not exist. It may be "your faith" once given to you but it is not "your faith" as far as its source. It is a fruit of the spirit as its source, is of grace as its source.

4) Next we get misrepresentation, did I say justification by works? Nope, never. So why attribute it to me? Because you misrepresent others to hide your mistaken views.

When you deny it is of grace and when you assert it is "your" faith when Christ plainly says it is not (Jn. 6:44) then there is no other source than works and so you don't have to say you believe you are justified and saved by works because you say it clearly when you assert you are justified by faith and saved by faith which is not of grace and that only leaves of works. And you admit it by saying it is 'your" faith rather than anything received from God or by grace.

5) Finally we get the saved by grace is "inclusive of faith." Twaddle to the max. Scripture teaches we are saved by grace through faith. Repeat, through faith. Stop rewriting the bible to pour your man-made twaddle into it.

Are you saved by grace? Is faith any aspect of salvation? Case closed!


Why keep misinterpreting Romans 5:2? he is not addressing how they are justified but he is addressing those already justified and how they can live the Christian life by accessing the POSITION of grace by faith. He is talking about progressive sanctification.

Van, is faith any aspect of salvation? Van, is faith of works or grace there is no middle ground or third option and Romans 4:16 claims it is a grace element not a works element.

 

[HankD]

Since the church has tares, it seems those not yet chosen also like mulberries. Jesus spoke in parables to preclude understanding (taking the bait). God harden hearts to preclude understanding, taking the bait.
The truth is before us. Jesus said "your faith has saved you." He did not say "the faith I implanted saved you. No need to believe what scripture does not say, over and against what scripture plainly teaches.

Van don't forget something called the "kenosis" (this is the theological name for Jesus status as He walked the earth here in His flesh)

The meaning - what part or parts of His deity did He lay aside? He did not forfeit them but He laid them aside.
The analogy - He is/was a 5 star general in Heaven, He came to earth as a basic recruit - not even 1 stripe.
He laid it all aside for us because it is/was the will of the triune God - together they sent Him forth, He in voluntary agreement that this was the best way. To become a human being born of a woman under the law.
So actually in His voluntary submission to the father He did not feel that He should say the to her (if it is indeed the truth) "the faith I implanted saved you".

But in this case I tend to agree with you. See, I told you I was a mugwump.

HankD

 

[JamesL]

....So James, which is it? Is faith of grace or of works. It cannot be of both according to Romans 11:6 as they cannot be mixed. If you say works then you are saying you are justified by works (faith of works). So which is it?

Lets have a little honesty and quit side stepping the real issue.

Honesty? Sidestepping? Maybe I haven't been clear enough for you, but I've certainly tried.

Scripture clearly correlates "saving faith" with a knowledge of the truth.

It's not an intellectual knowledge which someone ponders a set of pros and cons, makes any kind of decision, uses any kind of will, or anything of the sort.

God doesn't give every man a measure of faith, whereby the man exercises his will and decides to believe in Christ and becomes regenerated.

Neither does God superimpose a regenerated will onto a man, whereby this new godly man chooses to believe the gospel.

Both of those are unbiblical because they both have a man choosing to believe or choosing to commit or choosing whatever.

2Cor 4:6 says...
For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ

Faith is absolutely a gift, but not in a substantive manner, in a passive manner.

Van's warped version may as well say I choose to cast a shadow of myself by making the sun shine on me

Your warped version may as well say God makes the sun shine on me first, then I choose to cast the shadow

Scripture says that God makes the sun shine on me and the shadow is inevitable.

God enlightens our mind with a knowledge of the truth. That's saving faith. Not involving the will of man, either pre- or post-regeneration.

 

[HankD]

Here is another contemplation.

Salvation by faith through grace is a mystery for us humans.

Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

We don't what happened in that counsel meeting in heaven before the foundation of the world.
We weren't invited.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

We don't know what parameters were used in who was predestined to what.
True, many think they know and are quite willing to tell us e.g. Calvin, Arminius, Zwingli, Kierkegaard etc, etc,
They are all dead. Personally none of their writings satisfy my soul.

But here is what does/did satisfy my soul (over 50 years ago) it was God's theology (it was Isaiah 1:18 then the other passages came later):

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

God enlightens our mind with a knowledge of the truth. That's saving faith. Not involving the will of man, either pre- or post-regeneration.

Why James that is what I have been saying since I was on this forum and 2 Cor. 4:6 is the text I have been using to say that. The Gospel becomes the creative word of God whereby He speaks "the light of knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" into the heart and that is the very substance of faith as well as the object of faith.

I only challenged you because it seemed that you were agreeing with Van that faith is neither a gift of grace or a work and that is not sustainable. Faith is of grace and it is a gift, and you are right about the manner in how it is bestowed as a creative act of God.

God does give a "measure" of grace and a measure of faith (Rom. 12:3,6) but saving faith is not determined by measure but by the object of faith - the gospel.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is another contemplation.

Salvation by faith through grace is a mystery for us humans.

Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

Hank, I think he is referring to "the faith" as in the faith and practice handed down to the churches from Christ through the apostles. The ordained man must be sound in "the faith" or the essentials of New Testament faith and practice or the apostles doctrine.

We don't what happened in that counsel meeting in heaven before the foundation of the world.
We weren't invited.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

We don't know what parameters were used in who was predestined to what.
True, many think they know and are quite willing to tell us e.g. Calvin, Arminius, Zwingli, Kierkegaard etc, etc,
They are all dead. Personally none of their writings satisfy my soul.

But here is what does/did satisfy my soul (over 50 years ago) it was God's theology (it was Isaiah 1:18 then the other passages came later):

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

HankD

Well, it seems to me you are simply expressing Deuteronomy 29:29 - the secret things belong to the Lord but those things revealed are for us to do.