The Shroud of Turin

[Peggy]

So where is the napkin?

In the book I read about the Shroud (sorry I can't remember its name) there is a tradition that the linen napkin that was around His face was also preserved.

It's interesting that none of the apostles ever mention this cloth.

Not sure what difference that would make in it's authenticity. However, if you were an apostle or one of the women who attended Jesus, would you save these clothes as something precious and proof of the empty tomb? It is certainly human nature to preseve the effects of those we love and not outside of the realm of possibility.

I would also think that because of the enormous amount of blood loss that Jesus endured, the shroud would have been absolutely saturated with His blood and not just in the points of the wounds.

How can you explain the fact that the blood on the Shroud completely agrees with the wounds described to us in the Bible? Or that no one has ever been able to reproduce the image on the cloth?

He was buried hurriedly without no time to wash the body.

We don't know if they wiped the worst of the blood off before he was placed in the tomb. My assumption would be that they did wash the body but blood from His many wounds still leaked out.

The bible says that He was not even recognizable as a human because of the beatings that He endured. Flesh was ripped away from the bone and His face was not the face of a man. (Is. 52:14)

Have you heard of hyperbole? Exaggeration for effect? (Matt 5:29). Of course His dear face was the face of a Man.

Yet, the image of the face on the shroud was clearly that of a man who was not beaten to the extent that Christ was.

Wounds on head - crown of thorns. Check.
Beaten on the face - swelling appears on the forehead and cheekbones. Check.
Wound in the side - Speared after His death. Check.
Hundreds of wounds on back and legs - scourging. Check.

I watched the History Channel show, too, called "The Real Face of Jesus" and it is amazing to me no one can explain the image scientifically. And that 3-D imaging gives us a look at the face and body of the man of the Shroud so perfectly. If it wasn't the "real thing", how could 3-D imaging applied to the cloth create a 3-D image? If it was 2-D, then the image would be distorted. As it was, the image was rendered perfectly showing a 3-D person was wrapped in the Shroud.

I believe that the image on the Shroud was not made by human hands, but by the very Image of our dear Lord and Savior.

I think a lot of bias and skepticism about the Shroud is simply because it is in the custody of the RCC. Put that aside and really think and pray about whether or not it is genuine by using the facts and your faith.

 

[Zenas]

Although the Shroud is in the custody of the Catholic Church, the Vatican has never made any pronouncement that it is or isn't genuine. However, it has no doubt become an article of veneration for Christians of all stripes, just like the hem of Christ's garment in Matthew 14:6, or like Peter's shadow in Acts 5:15. Is the Shroud genuine? I don't think we will ever know.

 

[RAdam]

So you believe the bible exaggerated the sufferings of Christ?

When the bible says that His visage was marred more than any man and His form than the sons of men it didn't really mean it?

 

[menageriekeeper]

I watched the History Channel show, too, called "The Real Face of Jesus" and it is amazing to me no one can explain the image scientifically. And that 3-D imaging gives us a look at the face and body of the man of the Shroud so perfectly. If it wasn't the "real thing", how could 3-D imaging applied to the cloth create a 3-D image? If it was 2-D, then the image would be distorted. As it was, the image was rendered perfectly showing a 3-D person was wrapped in the Shroud.

Let me just answer this: You'd be amazed at what can be digitally to make a 2D image into a 3D image. Case in point: The new "Clash of the Titans" movie. It was shot in 2D and then digitally enhanced into a 3D product because the producers decided they wanted to jump on the 3D bandwagon after the film was shot. I've seen the 3D version. I wasn't impressed with most of it, but there were times when the enhancement was very, very good.

NEVER take a computer enhanced product as proof of ANYTHING. A half way decent artist will a full understanding of how a digital product such as Adobe CSE works (there are other products for film rather than photos) can create any image he wants. An uninformed observer will NOT be able to tell from looking at the image that it was not an actual photograph. It takes yet another expert, this one in computer forensics, to decipher what was actually done to the image. If you are looking at a printed copy of that image, there is no way that I know of to tell if it is "real" or if it is the product of someone's imagination.

You simply cannot accept any image today at face value.

 

[webdog]

In the book I read about the Shroud (sorry I can't remember its name) there is a tradition that the linen napkin that was around His face was also preserved.

Then where is it?

How can you explain the fact that the blood on the Shroud completely agrees with the wounds described to us in the Bible? Or that no one has ever been able to reproduce the image on the cloth?

That's simple. The person who created this read the account of Jesus' crucifixion.

Have you heard of hyperbole? Exaggeration for effect? (Matt 5:29). Of course His dear face was the face of a Man.

Nothing hyperbolic about it. Reade Psalm 22.

Wounds on head - crown of thorns. Check.
Beaten on the face - swelling appears on the forehead and cheekbones. Check.
Wound in the side - Speared after His death. Check.
Hundreds of wounds on back and legs - scourging. Check.

Again, the person who created this knew the details of Jesus' crucifixion.

I watched the History Channel show, too, called "The Real Face of Jesus" and it is amazing to me no one can explain the image scientifically. And that 3-D imaging gives us a look at the face and body of the man of the Shroud so perfectly. If it wasn't the "real thing", how could 3-D imaging applied to the cloth create a 3-D image? If it was 2-D, then the image would be distorted. As it was, the image was rendered perfectly showing a 3-D person was wrapped in the Shroud.

These are the same scientists that believe we came from a snot on a space rock and carbon dated a live moth showing the moth to be thousands of years old...you believe them?

Both Amy and Scarlett nailed it in their posts :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Here is an interesting link to the shroud with some additional recent information. (I too am a skeptic).

Hitler 'wanted to steal' Turin Shroud

The Turin Shroud, said to be the burial cloth of Christ, was secretly hidden in a Benedictine abbey during the Second World War because the Vatican feared that Adolf Hitler wanted to steal it.

Complete article here:
http://www.worthynews.com/top/teleg...669-Hitler-wanted-to-steal-Turin-Shroud-html/

 

[Peggy]

Then where is it?

Where is the linen napkin? In Oviedo, Spain.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

That's simple. The person who created this read the account of Jesus' crucifixion.

Yet NNE can say HOW a person created the cloth. It just isn't possible using either modern or ancient methods.

Nothing hyperbolic about it. Reade Psalm 22.

I have read the Psalms and the prophecies of Jesus's crucifixion, and it believe they are in some cases hyperboles, or poetic exaggerations of Christ's appearance.

These are the same scientists that believe we came from a snot on a space rock and carbon dated a live moth showing the moth to be thousands of years old...you believe them?

I believe people who have actually examined the Shroud for years and can come up with no explanation as to how it was created.

Curious, why wouldn't you believe it is genuine? Surely a God who created the universe in seven days and could come to earth born of a virgin could create a simple image on a cloth at His Resurrection.

I don't recall the exact book I read about the Shroud, but you could try this one:

"The Blood and the Shroud" by Ian Wilson.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0684855291/?tag=baptis04-20

Or you could check out the evidence on this website: shroud.com

 

[lori4dogs]

Where is the linen napkin? In Oviedo, Spain.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm



Yet NNE can say HOW a person created the cloth. It just isn't possible using either modern or ancient methods.


I have read the Psalms and the prophecies of Jesus's crucifixion, and it believe they are in some cases hyperboles, or poetic exaggerations of Christ's appearance.


I believe people who have actually examined the Shroud for years and can come up with no explanation as to how it was created.

Curious, why wouldn't you believe it is genuine? Surely a God who created the universe in seven days and could come to earth born of a virgin could create a simple image on a cloth at His Resurrection.

I don't recall the exact book I read about the Shroud, but you could try this one:

"The Blood and the Shroud" by Ian Wilson.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0684855291/?tag=baptis04-20

Or you could check out the evidence on this website: shroud.com

Thank you for the links, Peggy. I wasn't aware that 'the napkin' still (possibly) existed.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There's a shroud over Turin?

 

[webdog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6tfH_BTuEA&feature=youtube_gdata

 

[lori4dogs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6tfH_BTuEA&feature=youtube_gdata

However, I found this comment posted by a defender of 'The Shroud' under this video.

"This video is full of bad, outdated information, all of which has been disproved by the STURP team. There is no paint whatsoever on the Shroud. Barry Schwortz, the photographer for the STURP team, says so, along with the scientists who have worked on it. The blood on the Shroud is not only blood, but it is human blood, type AB. Bilirubin levels on the Shroud are very high, indicating this man died a violent death. Thorny pollens found near the head are native only to Israel."

 

[webdog]

However, I found this comment posted by a defender of 'The Shroud' under this video.

"This video is full of bad, outdated information, all of which has been disproved by the STURP team. There is no paint whatsoever on the Shroud. Barry Schwortz, the photographer for the STURP team, says so, along with the scientists who have worked on it. The blood on the Shroud is not only blood, but it is human blood, type AB. Bilirubin levels on the Shroud are very high, indicating this man died a violent death. Thorny pollens found near the head are native only to Israel."

Did you watch the video, there was no mention of paint in it. The comment is a red herring.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I mean who cares? Its a waste of time and effort to even think about. We really know how to waste time on things like this shroud. So what if its Jesus'? So what if it isn't? Who cares?

 

[lori4dogs]

Did you watch the video, there was no mention of paint in it. The comment is a red herring.

Did you watch it?? It clearly says it was either painted or rubbed. At .25 into the video it states this. It also says that 'pigment' was found on the shroud which is a false statement. The problem for many on this board is that the shroud is in the custody of the Catholic Church and ANYTHING connected with the Catholic Church is considered tainted and evil.

 

[ccrobinson]

I mean who cares? Its a waste of time and effort to even think about. We really know how to waste time on things like this shroud. So what if its Jesus'? So what if it isn't? Who cares?

How are other people talking about this a waste of your time and effort?


When I was a senior in high school, I did a paper about the Shroud and, based on the information I found at the time (23 years ago), I leaned towards it being the real thing, but I wasn't 100% convinced. Now, I lean towards it not being real, but a very good forgery.

 

[annsni]

Where is the linen napkin? In Oviedo, Spain.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm



Yet NNE can say HOW a person created the cloth. It just isn't possible using either modern or ancient methods.


I have read the Psalms and the prophecies of Jesus's crucifixion, and it believe they are in some cases hyperboles, or poetic exaggerations of Christ's appearance.


I believe people who have actually examined the Shroud for years and can come up with no explanation as to how it was created.

Curious, why wouldn't you believe it is genuine? Surely a God who created the universe in seven days and could come to earth born of a virgin could create a simple image on a cloth at His Resurrection.

I don't recall the exact book I read about the Shroud, but you could try this one:

"The Blood and the Shroud" by Ian Wilson.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0684855291/?tag=baptis04-20

Or you could check out the evidence on this website: shroud.com

An interesting question: Could Satan have put this shroud together to take the focus off of God? Wouldn't he love for man to worship an item rather than the Creator?

 

[lori4dogs]

An interesting question: Could Satan have put this shroud together to take the focus off of God? Wouldn't he love for man to worship an item rather than the Creator?

I have never heard of anyone 'worshiping' the shroud.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I can't speak for annsni, but I will try.

I think she means people who are obsessed with the shroud as a holy relic and they consider this "proof" of what they believe and their faith.

The Bible says that faith is the evidence of things NOT seen.

It's kind of like those who have hunted for Noah's Ark (which in my opinion is rotted away to nothingness) - what would have happened if they put all of that time and energy into growing in Christ and reaching the lost?

God doesn't want people to have faith in His Son based on a relic or icon.

This obsession that some have with the shroud (not anyone on the BB, but people in general) is like the obsession that some people in Rome who to this very day climb the steps of the Scala Santa on their hands and knees and kiss the painting at the top and believe that their sins are forgiven.

Religious relics and icons from all religions of all the world come to embody the believer's faith - and it's very, very sad.

 

[Zenas]

Oh come now, Scarlett. Your're a smart woman (even if you do like cats). You can't tell me that if you knew beyond any doubt the Shroud was the burial cloth of Jesus, that you wouldn't want to have it for yourself and keep it as close to you as possible. It would enhance, not detract from, your love of our Lord.

I'll tell you a personal story. There are no known photographs of my grandfather in existence, nor is there anything in existence he ever owned. He died before I was born. So imagine my exitement a few years back when I discovered a deed to a farm that he had written and signed when he was young. I treasure that document. It gives me a small window into his life and makes me feel closer to him.

I think that is the correct function of relics. They provide us with a connection to the owner of the object, and if the owner is Jesus, it draws us closer to Him. Isn't that a good thing?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Oh come now, Scarlett. Your're a smart woman (even if you do like cats). You can't tell me that if you knew beyond any doubt the Shroud was the burial cloth of Jesus, that you wouldn't want to have it for yourself and keep it as close to you as possible. It would enhance, not detract from, your love of our Lord.

I'll tell you a personal story. There are no known photographs of my grandfather in existence, nor is there anything in existence he ever owned. He died before I was born. So imagine my exitement a few years back when I discovered a deed to a farm that he had written and signed when he was young. I treasure that document. It gives me a small window into his life and makes me feel closer to him.

I think that is the correct function of relics. They provide us with a connection to the owner of the object, and if the owner is Jesus, it draws us closer to Him. Isn't that a good thing?

Oh, I have several things from my deceased grandparents that I will never throw away and are very dear to me. An old horseshoe, a worn-down wedding band, a tea ring, some earrings with no matches, and cast-iron skillet with no handle. They are treasures to me.

But I don't need any tangible treasures from Jesus to feel close to Him. And I shouldn't rest my faith in the tangible. He IS my treasure.

To seek after divine relics and to use them to develop one's faith just doesn't set well with me.