The Shroud of Turin

[Trotter]

True. However, scripture does not preclude the practice in the sense of this topic. (I.e. not idolatry) In addition to ThinkingStuff's examples, there are several places where scripture does show bowing/kneeling as an accepted practice.

"In an interesting passage the verb is used both of "worship" and of "bowing" without an attitude of worship. After Naaman’s healing and his conversion to the monotheistic worship of the Lord (II Kgs 5:17), the Syrian officer asked Elisha, "In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master (i.e. the king) goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, leaning on my arm, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter" (II Kgs 5:18, RSV). Elisha did not object and said, "Go in peace."

A problem passage is Gen 47:31 where Jacob before dying "bowed himself upon the head of the bed (mitta)." The LXX, however, reads, "And Israel worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff"’ rendering the consonants as matteh "staff." The Syriac and Itala agree; Heb 11:21 cites the LXX. In this context Speiser suggests, "The term ‘to bow low’ need not signify here anything more than a gesture of mute appreciation...." Cf. also I Kgs 1:47 where the dying David bows down in bed."

(http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/prostration_heb.aspx)

‡ Peace ‡

You've got a real thing for using Catholic/Orthodox sources, don't you?

 

[BillySunday1935]

The facts are in evidence.
The Bible commands that we are to worship God and him alone. All other worship is idolatry. That fact is clearly pointed out in the Ten Commandments. Any one with an understanding of the Ten Commandments would comprehend that one basic fact. Worship belongs to God alone.

Amen! I believe that Catholic will agree with that 100%.

2. The Catholic Church has invented words to circumvent that command.
The words are: latria, dulia, hyper-dulia.
These distinctions are not in the Bible. These are facts. They are not assumed. They are in evidence.
To pray before a statue of a dead saint is still worship.
To pray to a dead saint is still worship.
To pray to any image is still worship.
In fact all of the above is idolatry.

These are facts that are in existence as defined by the Bible, and denied by the RCC. They are defended by the RCC because they have taken the word "worship," and re-defined it. Worship is still worship, whether praying to God, or idolatry--praying to another, whether that person be alive or dead, or whether it be an image. Worship belongs only to God, and prayer is worship.

One need only look up the meaning of the word "prayer" to invalidate all of the above.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[BillySunday1935]

You've got a real thing for using Catholic/Orthodox sources, don't you?

Do you have a response to the scriptures quoted therein? If so, it would be nice if you responded with something meaningful and lose that creepy sanctimonious attitude. I've got better things to do with my time than to play "bash-the-Catholic-Church" with you.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[Revmitchell]

No. But an accusatory statement without substantiation most certainly diminishes yours.

If I say the ball is blue because in fact the ball is blue what kind of substantiation is required for everyone else to believe the ball is blue?

 

[BillySunday1935]

Repeating false comparisons does not add to credibility.

If I say the ball is blue because in fact the ball is blue what kind of substantiation is required for everyone else to believe the ball is blue?

You are accusing me of repeating false comparisons. That accusation requires substantiation. But you accuse me of this because of your belief in the correctness of your own interpretation of scripture. I believe that my interpretation is correct. So what?

Look Rev, scriptural interpretation isn't as simple as deducing the color of a sphere (although the chromatically challenged might disagree). If it were, then everyone on the planet would have the same interpretation and understanding of scripture as you do. They don't. Hmmm...

‡ Peace ‡

 

[DHK]

One need only look up the meaning of the word "prayer" to invalidate all of the above.

‡ Peace ‡

PRAYER
Is the offering of the emotions and desires of the soul to God, in the name and through the mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is the communion of the heart with God through the aid of the Holy Spirit, and is to the Christian the very life of the soul. Without this filial spirit, no one can be a Christian, Job 21:15; Ps 10:4.

From the American Tract Society Dictionary.

This definition--a Bible definition (not secular), validates everything I have said.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

From the American Tract Society Dictionary.

This definition--a Bible definition (not secular), validates everything I have said.

What book and chapter of the bible are definitions found?

 

[DHK]

You have an interesting background. Here' mine.

Born into a Southern Baptist family (Scotch/Irish) – North Florida

Age 7 – forced into joining Faith Baptist Church – went to church every Wednesday night and Sunday. I did regular Sunday school, participated in the RA’s, vacation bible school, revivals, etc.

There I was taught that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, the Pope was the anti-Christ, yada-yada, and I believed all of it. (And why wouldn’t I?)

Personal experience - I have a few Catholic colleagues with whom I have had many discussions about their religious beliefs over the years. I've done my own research into the history of the Church. I no longer believe my Baptist indoctrination about the Catholic Church. (How can I?)

There you have it.

‡ Peace ‡

So you admit you are not a Baptist. Why did you lie on your profile? If you are not a Baptist then be honest and say so.

 

[BillySunday1935]

From the American Tract Society Dictionary.

This definition--a Bible definition (not secular), validates everything I have said.

The American Tract Society Dictionary as a valid source? Right...

Try that in the academic community.

 

[rbell]

So you admit you are not a Baptist. Why did you lie on your profile? If you are not a Baptist then be honest and say so.

Well....you know....lying to the BB is only a venial sin....

 

[webdog]

So you admit you are not a Baptist. Why did you lie on your profile? If you are not a Baptist then be honest and say so.

Why is his / her (we had a few catholics join a couple months ago under false pretense) membership still allowed?

 

[BillySunday1935]

You have an interesting background. Here' mine.

Born into a Southern Baptist family (Scotch/Irish) – North Florida

Age 7 – forced into joining Faith Baptist Church – went to church every Wednesday night and Sunday. I did regular Sunday school, participated in the RA’s, vacation bible school, revivals, etc.

There I was taught that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, the Pope was the anti-Christ, yada-yada, and I believed all of it. (And why wouldn’t I?)

Personal experience - I have a few Catholic colleagues with whom I have had many discussions about their religious beliefs over the years. I've done my own research into the history of the Church. I no longer believe my Baptist indoctrination about the Catholic Church. (How can I?)

There you have it.

‡ Peace ‡

So you admit you are not a Baptist. Why did you lie on your profile? If you are not a Baptist then be honest and say so.

Nope - and I didn't say that in the above post. I know plenty of Baptists who do not believe that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon or that the Pope is the anti-Christ - and - the last time I checked, that position was not one of the "things" that one must believe in order to be a Baptist.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[BillySunday1935]

Why is his / her (we had a few catholics join a couple months ago under false pretense) membership still allowed?

What - can't you people read here? Did I say that I was no longer a Baptist? No!

 

[Amy.G]

So you admit you are not a Baptist. Why did you lie on your profile? If you are not a Baptist then be honest and say so.

I am going to exercise my female prerogative and say....


I told ya so! :laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

The American Tract Society Dictionary as a valid source? Right...

Try that in the academic community.

I have. Which academic community are you speaking of?
The RCC? It is hardly academic. It is biased. The medical? Astro-physics?
Every academic community has its own group of academics. Outside of the RCC I went to the academic community. I posted one source. I can post many more if you desire. The RCC is not in the academic community. They don't hold to orthodox doctrine and therefore have excluded themselves. If you want academia I will give it to you.

 

[BillySunday1935]

I have. Which academic community are you speaking of?
The RCC? It is hardly academic. It is biased. The medical? Astro-physics?
Every academic community has its own group of academics. Outside of the RCC I went to the academic community. I posted one source. I can post many more if you desire. The RCC is not in the academic community. They don't hold to orthodox doctrine and therefore have excluded themselves. If you want academia I will give it to you.

Go for it. Start with Merriam Webster.

 

[DHK]

The American Tract Society Dictionary as a valid source? Right...

Try that in the academic community.

PRAYER

prar (deesis, proseuche, (enteuxis; for an excellent discussion of the meaning of these see Thayer's Lexicon, p. 126, under the word deesis; the chief verbs are euchomai, proseuchomai, and deomai, especially in Luke and Acts; aiteo, "to ask a favor" distinguished from erotao, "to ask a question," is found occasionally): In the Bible "prayer" is used in a simpler and a more complex a narrower and a wider signification. In the former case it is supplication for benefits either for one's self (petition) or for others (intercession). In the latter it is an act of worship which covers all soul in its approach to God. Supplication is at the heart of it, for prayer always springs out of a sense of need and a belief that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him (Heb 11:6). But adoration and confession and thanksgiving also find a It place, so that the suppliant becomes a worshipper. It is unnecessary to distinguish all the various terms for prayer that are employed in the Old Testament and the New Testament. But the fact should be noticed that in the Hebrew and Greek aloe there are on the one hand words for prayer that denote a direct petition or short, sharp cry of the heart in its distress (Ps 30:2; 2Co 12:8), and on the other "prayers" like that of Hannah (Job 38:8-17), which is in reality a song of thanksgiving, or that of Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ, in which intercession is mingled with doxology (Eph 3:14-21).

from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

This is only about one third of the information given on the subject. You can find the same information on the WEB. This is academic information.
It will agree with the same information that I gave you, but in far more detail. This is academia.

You will never find in the Bible prayer (worship) directed to any other person than God, unless it is idolatry.

 

[DHK]

Go for it. Start with Merriam Webster.

The medical community does not use common dictionaries to define medical terms. That is foolishness.
Theologians do not use common dictionaries to define theological terms. That also is foolishness.

I thought you wanted academia. You are being foolish to demand a common dictionary and academia at the same time.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have. Which academic community are you speaking of?
The RCC? It is hardly academic. It is biased. The medical? Astro-physics?
Every academic community has its own group of academics. Outside of the RCC I went to the academic community. I posted one source. I can post many more if you desire. The RCC is not in the academic community. They don't hold to orthodox doctrine and therefore have excluded themselves. If you want academia I will give it to you.

Uh. I don't agree with many things about the catholic church but one thing I do know. They have an intense academic community. Some of the Worlds best Universites are Catholic. So... That was't really fair. Just pointing out.

 

[Revmitchell]

Look Rev, scriptural interpretation isn't as simple as deducing the color of a sphere (although the chromatically challenged might disagree). If it were, then everyone on the planet would have the same interpretation and understanding of scripture as you do. They don't. Hmmm...

‡ Peace ‡

What is simple is recognizing bad comparisons.