Originally posted by Yelsew:
Why yes I did, that is why I responded with humor in kind.
I guess I am the one with out a sense of humor, I did miss the scent of it in your post.
I previously wrote:
I knew of God's law long before my nineteenth year, which is the age I married. However, there is not any pleading ignorance at the bar of the Justice of God.
You responded:
But at what age were you first fully conscious of God's law? Was is 1 week? 2 months? 9 months? 15months? 27 months? 3 years? 5 years? The point is you do not know when you first became fully conscious of God's law because God's law was not ingrained in you. You may have learned the 10 Commandments so that you could recite them in Sunday School to earn a gold star, but you were not fully conscious of God's law until that time when you were willing to submit to it!
This has been my view the entire time, the difference is that I could not submit my will but my will until after God broke my human will, which was in full rebellion.
I wrote earlier:
Adam was created without sin, but the ability to not sin, he failed. I was not created, I was born, reproduced through my parents as I said above, and born into this sin nature. There is no getting around it
You answered:
You have every attribute that Adam had, with one exception, you have a belly button. Every aspect of Adam (man) is present in every descending man throughout time. You are in every way but one just like Adam. You have in you the same human nature present in Adam, and you sin just like Adam sinned. For the early part of your life you were innocent of sin, just as Adam in the early part of his life was innocent of sin. but at some point of your life, you sinned, as Adam sinned. Therefore Like Adam, who brought out of the garden a sin nature, having sinned, thus being guilty of sinning, you likewise bring with you out or your idyllic early life a sin nature, having sinned, thus it is you are guilty of sinning.
For the early part of your life you were innocent of sin, just as Adam in the early part of his life was innocent of sin.
I disagree with this for reasons I have listed earlier. If any one man/woman/or child is born innocent, then choose to sin and thus become a sinner, then it is entirely possible for man to choose not to sin, this is not Biblical. Man is created one time in innocence. All others are born, they, through the miracle of childbirth are reproduced, they do possess the attributes of Adam as you say, now, however, these now include the sin nature. This is a nature that we add to even as Cain added to himself murder.
I did ask this question in sincerity.
How do you think the Psalmist David is able to say he was formed in iniquity?
I don't know unless Jesse and his wife were not married when David was conceived, but that is unlikely as David had at least 6 older male siblings. David's writings are for the most part considered by most scholars to be poetry,
therefore in poetic form one can conceal the correct meaning . I do not believe that anyone is "formed in iniquity" because marriage is God's plan, and the womb is a sacred place.
David was not different in essence that any other man . He was different in spirit than most other men in that God found him to be a man after his own heart.
Even so, David sinned.
To this paragraph I answer:
David wrote the portions of Scripture attributed to him only as the Holy Spirit inspired him, to say the real meaning comes from David and is concealed even betrays that most scholars do not consider the Bible inspired, further, it betrays the deceit of human nature, if David is concealing his real meaning, why? A better answer is that David, like myself and every other individual is born in the sin-nature of Adam. You are right David is no different in essence than any other man, he was born in the same sin nature as all. And again you are right, at times he is ruled by this sin nature.
Yelsew said, "Yes, infants inherently have the same nature that Adam was created with, and they too will eventually sin just as Adam sinned. They however are not born already guilty of sinning, they grow into it!
Frogman replied,
If you believe this, then you would also believe it is possible for man to not sin, therefore making man able to live according to the law and making the Cross of no effect, either as an Arminian, free-willer or a Calvinist. Do you believe it is possible for man to "grow into sin" then by default it is just as possible for man to not "grow into sin." This is heresy. Everywhere the Bible proclaims the depravity of man, Everywhere you deny this depravity, thereby glorifying man and not God.
I stand beside this statement. Your statement above makes it possible for man to live without sin, I do not believe this possibility exists.
You wrote:
I suspect reading is not your strong suit. You skip over the thoughts I write, looking for words that you can slam back at me. Now what is difficult about each of us having the same nature that Adam had, yet being innocent of sinning until that first sin that we all do?
I don't remember skipping over anything. If I did forgive me, but just in case I am responding as such. In fact, I love to read and will read anything I can find in print. Your statements sometimes have things jump out at me that I believe are steeped in such error that I must answer those. One such incident is the thought that as descendants of Adam we inherit every attribute of his, except the sin nature. You surely can't believe this and still think you believe man is not capable to choose to not sin and thus have no need for Christ as savior.
Yelsew said, "Reproduced? What were you when you were first produced?"
Frogman replied,
A sinner...a sinner...totally depraved...without hope except that God has come...my kind to save...yet still am I without the first hope...if within my blindness...for the walls of salvation I grope.
I guess you didn't catch my humor, so we're even.
Sorry I guess I didn't catch your humor here, so you're right, we are even.
You said this:
Besides, God is not in the reproduction business, because no 2 of us is alike thus reproduced does not fit the description of man.
Correct, God is not, but he commanded man and woman to 'be fruitful and multiply' God is not 're-creating' each man, but each person is born in the likeness of the first man, including the inherent attributes which includes the sin-nature. This nature was not originally in Adam, he did not have children until after he fell. Then he has two sons. If Adam's children had been born prior to the fall, I would agree with you in this point, but the order does not occur as such, so I disagree. Man is born in the sin nature because man did not begin to have offspring until after the fall. This is as simply stated as I can make it.
Frogman said,
Tis the Blood, yes, that Blood of Immanuel's veins...without a trace of man's...but the Blood of God and God alone...through the darkness the way is shown.
If not for this through Amazing Grace...forever in hell I would find my place...And here if justice were measured to me...rightly would I be.
But in the depths of Eternity...no, deeper yet His Grace we see...God has provided Himself a sacrifice...and secured the sinner...without man's price.
Tis this and this alone which shall bring me before His Eternal Throne...My own will having been broken...His Spirit He has given me as Token...In this I rest each night and day...Assured that Jesus opened up the Way.
Thanks.
Yelsew wrote:
Did you happen to notice in the last paragraph the phrase "My own will having been broken"? A definite sign that man has his own will, and when one comes to faith in Jesus, that will is broken so it can be molded by the hand of God
I answer:
Here is our difference as you know. I believe man cannot come to faith in Christ until his will is broken. I never denied man has a will, but that this will is free is what I deny, as does Scripture. In other words man does have a will, but it is in bondage to the sin nature.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
